Beijing Olympics 2008 - is it cool to work there?

[deepvisual]

At least one well known visual outfit is participating in Beijing in the events around the Beijing Olympics..

Given the nature of the Chinese State and the many comparisons to the Berlin Olympics of 1936, do you feel that participating in an overtly political event like this is ok?

[cat]

Depends where your politics lie, maybe they like the regime there?
I'm doing something for the handover of the games to the uk, and I don't agree with the politics here either!

[unjulation]

Depends where your politics lie

exactly what sprung to mind when i saw the thread title

[deepvisual]

Its an ethical issue, not a political one.

otherwise it would be ok to work in a major propaganda event in a Conservative Dictatorship like Saudi Arabia, but not in a Communist Dictatorship like North Korea?

[theLABvisuals]

Definately an ethical and moral issue, completely dependent upon your own viewpoint. Allthough as per poll, a definate opportunity to have your work shown to a captive audience (no pun intended)

[MJ]

from cnn:
China censoring Internet access at Olympics (http://edition.cnn.com/2008/TECH/07/30/olympics.internet.ap/index.html)

anyone knows if vjforums.com can also be reached in china?

here is a leaked opening ceremonie http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=e2e_1217434995

videomapping of whales on edge of stadium ?
nice.


-mj

[Liquidmetro]

So who's performing? This discussion will be less hypothetical if they were to post.

[deepvisual]

They probably wont because of the flack they'll get. But I wish they would and justify their position...
until then we can only speculate.

[SteveG]

So how many countries do we rule ourselves out off for performing in? The UK's and America's ethics aint so hot now or in the past...then there's the Saudi's, Israel....the list goes on. The UK was executing people up until the start of the second world war. Counties are evolving at different rates. I believe that normal people like us visiting these countries with poor conditions can only help speed up the process and assist those struggling to change their counties for the better. They will offer more than a ticket for the event. I hope those who have gone and are performing manage to make their mark....it can only be a good thing and I'm sure they are achieving more to assist change than me sitting here.

[deepvisual]

honestly steve...
its about performing at overtly political events in dodgy countries.
There is a big difference between doing a gig at glastonbury and playing at Tony Blair's birthday party.

[vjpixylight]

but herein lies the problem...
The olympics is not supposed to be political, but has been made that way by human right groups..
I think the bigger problem for China is that it has such a bad pollution factor,
and realizes it. Maybe China will learn from this problem and implement solutions that will curb it's pollution in the future...

[deepvisual]

The olympics is not supposed to be political, but has been made that way by human right groups..


human rights groups like the USA - who stayed away from the moscow Olympics for political reasons?

surely the arguments about it being non-political are a bit old fashioned aren't they?
I think the whole concept of the Olympics is a bit of an embarrassment these days and is just being milked by governments and corporations for all its worth.. The sport itself is just a sideshow.

[SteveG]

honestly steve...
its about performing at overtly political events in dodgy countries.
There is a big difference between doing a gig at glastonbury and playing at Tony Blair's birthday party.

Ethics are Ethics Gary;) The Sport has allways been a sideshow:)

[vjpixylight]

I agree with you Deep, and sadly, most everyone involved with the olympics seems to try to use the games for reasons than should not be what the spirit the olympics is about:sad:

[SteveG]

You dont think people like us visiting the country will help change things then...is it not changing allready?

[PCProject]

I think by people NOT visiting there is likely to be more of a result

especially if the lead is taken by competetiing nations

political boycott good - political games bad

[vjpixylight]

the biggest problem the olympic games face is that with such a hugh audience around the world, it has became an advertising and political statement's wet dream. Shite, not even the Super Bowl gets as many eyes and coverage:eek:

[visualove]

My theory is two part:

Are your individual actions going to have an impact? - that usually requires that the people who can change things know you are boycotting something.

Second - personal limits, usually based on the idea that if everyone did what I do the world would be better. This can also be influenced by your peers. Decisions like that make up our identity.

Personally I think making friends with individual Chinese and trying to understand their reasoning and maybe plant some seeds might be more effective in the long run. Might be cool to meet some Tibetans too, or work some Tibetan imagery into your sets (probably not for the Olympics though!)

[6071842]

There is a big difference between doing a gig at glastonbury and playing at Tony Blair's birthday party.

so its the music...

[MJ]

Might be cool to meet some Tibetans too

dont think you'll meet any tibetans when you're at the olympics...

from the cnn page...
in the last year, thousands of petitioners, reformists and others were arrested as part of a government campaign to "clean up" Beijing before the Olympics. It said many have been sentenced to manual labor without trial.

[devonmiles]

you can go everywhere for the right reasons. in this case there are no reasons to do visuals. neither you nor your visuals will have any impact or transort any statement political , moral or ethical, you wont meet anyone you can influence or tell anything that would have the potential for the slightest change. to say being there is a change itself is a fundamental misunderstanding of the ambiguity of asian society. read Kenzaburo Oes great nobel price speach for some insights.

[asterix]

Its one of those things probably easier to speculate on than actually action. I think 99% of us would have gone ape shit at the chance of a live performance at one of the worlds biggest events.

Including Cokacola who are obviously sponsors:

YouTube - 韩庚HAN KYUNG 080323 Olympic dress rehearsal


Luckily, the coke logo is only 10 time as big as the games logo, and only covers half of the rings...

[deepvisual]

. I think 99% of us would have gone ape shit at the chance of a live performance at one of the worlds biggest events.

you have to bear in mind the level of an event like this.
Stephen Speilberg was the producer ...
only the very top people will get a punt at gigs of this scale. In which case you would have to weigh up the negative publicity against the 'fame' and the truth is if you are good enough to 'do' the Olympics you are already famous enough to do without the bad rep.

I'm not going to name and shame the VJs who are providing content for an Olympic event, but I do think they were already more than successful enough to be able to turn down this poisoned chalice. There may have been other reasons for participating but they certainly don't need to raise their profile.

[asterix]

Deep, at the end of the day, althetes are there to perform at the 'pinnacle' of their competition. Bowing out will achieve nothing and only stop you from reaching your dreams.

I think you should treat performers in the same context. Im not sure how many million viewers will watch the opening ceremony, but this is probably the biggest vj gig you could secure until the next olympics comes around!! Thats something you'll be talking to your grand kids about let alone the boasting factor you'll have on your resume.

I don't think 'name and shame' is hence the right term. If you want to go down that road, I'd be interested to know how many chinese electronic components are in the products you sell in your store. Isn't consumerism the same?

[fata alex]

I think we have to respect every individual's decision, its their own life, its thier own vjing. at the end of the day, i think its much less likely to have any positive impact by not going than it is to go. as someone before said, boycotting would only really make a difference if the competing countries or general international community did it, not just a few vjs.
i like to think that we can all exert positive change in some way, even if its just by putting out feelings of love and unity, and general good vibes! you can do this through your person, or through your art or whatever, but every little counts.

[cat]

http://imagecache2.allposters.com/images/pic/PA2/PPR45008~Black-Power-Salute-1968-Olympics-Mexico-City-Posters.jpg

There are ways to go and still maintain your dignity, this image help spark a major change in ameriKKKan attitudes, and may seem like ancient history to some but happened the year after I was born, its not so long ago that you could get lynched for having the wrong ideas about your place in the world, and this in the "Land of the Free" *cough* no less.
Images can have power, otherwise there would be no propaganda, no advertising. So i think that it depends on the content of the works included maybe?

[Liquidmetro]

My theory is two part:

Are your individual actions going to have an impact? - that usually requires that the people who can change things know you are boycotting something.

It can seem this way, but it's not constructive to think like this. I vote at the elections, not because I feel my vote will have a direct impact, but it is my right. Living in a 'democratic' society which many have died to preserve I will not squander it.

It should not influence you in making the decision. What about the personal impact on you as an individual.

I agree with G's comment about poisoned chalice.

[Meierhans]

I still believe we are discussing a general question here, it just becomes obvious in this extreme case. The question is: How far am I willing to to cooperate with a "system" (excuse this term..) that is knowingly causing suffer and pain to mankind. Or maybe: What amount of blood can you accept on the money you earn? (I´m very sorry again............)

While its pretty obvious that chinese government is enormous corrupt organisation that could easily be compared to italien or russian mafia in many ways - murdering thousands of people for telling the truth - there are also other cases where its not that easy. (Then again the role of women in tibetan society isn´t that great as well. However..)

Take Coke for example:
http://www.georg-hipp-realschule.de/service/archiv/chemie/images/coladosse-zuckerwuerfel.jpg

They are selling a product with large amounts of sugar in it that evidentially is causing diabetis and obesity if consumed in large amounts.
In general it detunes the taste to prefer oversweetened food which is very unhealthy to the body but very welcome to those who produce denatured goods out of cheap ingredients to make profit. One could argue that nobody forces you to drink large amount of it. Then again the consumtion of large amounts on a regular base is exactly the goal of their advertisements. And the better your work is if you work for them, the more will be consumed. If this wasn´t the case they would not pay for it. They are not stupid.

One may also take cigarettes as example (I use to smoke around 20 a day btw..):

We all know this nicotine is slow death and causing serious deseases. :p
http://thecia.com.au/reviews/c/images/coffee-and-cigarettes-1.jpg

So what about the party sponsored by Lucky Strike or Gauloises? Well its still up to the individual if he decided to smoke or not. But do I really want to emotionally connect the things that happen in place there with smoking cigarettes by doing your work? LOVE!! SMOKE!!! If it would not affect people, especially young ones, would they still sponsor it? :o
I know this is broken down to a very simple point of view. But sometimes you have to do so to make things clear. So for me the question remains (in every single case): How far am I willing to forget about my ethics and what I learned about myself and the world in general in my wild years to earn money.And yes.. its always very easy to behave ethical as long its not serious cash on your own table..

So, as you may see I can´t come up with easy solutions. I don´t have a clue myself. I just know that I don´t wanna cause suffering to others and that I will not glorify assholes (Well.. thats a clear statement I guess...)

http://plancksconstant.org/blog1/image2/hu-rice.jpg
http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/Gallery/4169/drawings/aphextwin1.jpg

So I voted for "Just plain wrong and there is no excuse" because knowingly supporting enemies of free speech is: PLAIN WRONG!

Truth is to most important good. If we loose the right to tell the truth... well..

My 2 cents. Sorry. Word ! :moon:

If you got the time left and don´t know it.. maybe watch this. Its not the people themself.. its whats in between them... however.. :shrug:
http://www.thecorporation.com/


PS:

http://www.warprecords.com/media/img/aphex%20coin%20popup%20resized.jpg

[fata alex]

really agree with your points Meierhans, but why the pictures of aphex twin?

ultimately, unless you completely drop out of society and become a hermit or live in a self-suffiecient community then we're all contributing to some kind of organisation that inturn contributes to suffering. simply by living comfortably we're exploiting all those that aren't because most of the luxuries we take for granted come at the expense of others somewhere down the line. even just having electricity, gas, and petrol on tap has caused extra strife and death for people in the countries were those resources come from.

as meierhans said, we all have to be comfortable with our own individual level of involvment and/or resistance...

[deepvisual]

Deep, at the end of the day, althetes are there to perform at the 'pinnacle' of their competition. Bowing out will achieve nothing and only stop you from reaching your dreams.....
I don't think 'name and shame' is hence the right term. If you want to go down that road, I'd be interested to know how many chinese electronic components are in the products you sell in your store. Isn't consumerism the same?

well you might have a point if it was the world VJ contest. but of course it isn't.
Vjs have no obligation to attend or 'represent their country' at a sporting event and this isn't just about who can run fast.
There is a very real reason for the Chinese and the idiots running London to commit their citizens to spending billions to have an egg and spoon race - Politics.

as for consumerism? generalisations never make good arguments, as they fall apart straight away when you take them to their conclusions
eg

there is a vast difference between being British - living in England and being in the British army - occupying Iraq.

Vegetarians dont eat meat, but millions of animals are killed when rice fields are flooded or land ploughed.
therefore all vegetarians are hypocrites???

hardly.


http://img231.imageshack.us/img231/5378/dibujovz2.png

Leni Riefensthal (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leni_Riefenstahl) embodies the arguments behind all this.

'I am just a film maker' rings a bit hollow..

[Meierhans]

unless you completely drop out of society and become a hermit or live in a self-suffiecient community then we're all contributing to some kind of organisation that inturn contributes to suffering. simply by living comfortably we're exploiting all those that aren't because most of the luxuries we take for granted come at the expense of others somewhere down the line. even just having electricity, gas, and petrol on tap has caused extra strife and death for people in the countries were those resources come from.

WELL..... you are right. Completly. But there are things you can´t avoid, like breathing (CO2...) and others you can. Like glorifing a regime that kills people. Sitting at home and feel ashamed by the guilt doesnt help at all. Sometimes you have to use a car...

Why Aphex? Not because he selled himself (afaik) but the opposite: for pointing out things that had to be said. ARRR! And wonder! Success!! People like the truth. :hippy:

[rayrik]

even just having electricity, gas, and petrol on tap has caused extra strife and death for people in the countries were those resources come from.
..
Do you mean those Arabs, Norwegians or Russians killing themselves in Ferraris or viagra overdosis while having sex with a model ?

[asterix]

[quote=deepvisual;203166]
as for consumerism? generalisations never make good arguments, as they fall apart straight away when you take them to their conclusions
[/quote
Every argument falls apart - socrates. But what is the difference between working in an event held in a country you are ethically opposed to, and buying products that come from that same country(who more than likely paid their workers 10c and hour to produce it)?

Chinas doing a great job of shooting itself in the foot with this Olympics anyway. So lets not forget they are performing for the olympics first, the world second and china barely rates a mention.

[deepvisual]

well, we all know that we can't escape the modern world.
Like fata alex said, we would have to live like monks and even then it would be almost impossible.
But there is a big difference between a passive participation in global commerce and active support of Totalitarianism.

Isn't there.

lets not forget they are performing for the olympics first, the world second and china barely rates a mention

of course, you dont know this. you are only guessing.
Even if its true its not a reason its an excuse. The chinese certainly don't see it that way. take a look at the media in Beijing its all CHINA CHINA CHINA

I hope its not the case, but I could see a time when explicit participation in this fascist pantomime could come back to bite you in the ass. That's the chance you take I guess.

lets come back to this one year from now and see if the smog is still there and the oppression is still there and the Falun Gong are still being executed to order to provide organs for transplant (http://organharvestinvestigation.net/) or if the cherished Olympic spirit really has made a difference.

http://www.outofmyface.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/02/english-nazi-salute.jpghttp://rhymeswithright.mu.nu/archives/images/naziMOS0902_468x196%5B1%5D.jpg

the England team salute the spirit of the 1938 World cup

[vjpixylight]

well, we all know that we can't escape the modern world.
Like fata alex said, we would have to live like monks and even then it would be almost impossible.
But there is a big difference between a passive participation in global commerce and active support of Totalitarianism.

Isn't there.



of course, you dont know this. you are only guessing.
Even if its true its a poor excuse. The chinese certainly don't see it that way. take a look at the media in Beijing its all CHINA CHINA CHINA

I hope its not the case, but I could see a time when explicit participation in this fascist pantomime could come back to bite you in the ass. That's the chance you take I guess.

lets come back to this one year from now and see if the smog is still there and the oppression is still there and the Falun Gong are still being executed to order to provide organs for transplant or if the cherished Olympic spirit really has made a difference.

i would give it more than a year, but I think you will see some change in the Chinese Government within the next couple of years or soo:)

[asterix]

But there is a big difference between a passive participation in global commerce and active support of Totalitarianism.


Yes but that is my point. There is a big difference in someone who performs at the olympics (no-matter what country it is in) and someone who is actively doing something to support Totalitarianism. I mean should we start adding tag lines to the end of our video clip licensing to say 'must not be used in China or similar regime'?

China will receive 'favourable' global exposure from the olympics and by contributing to that perhaps your saying that indirectly you are supporting gross human rights violations. I don't agree with that personally. I don't think of Coke or McDonalds (major sponsors) as supporters of KGB style bullying or any other Chinese policy.

Nor do I see the Australian Hockey Team (which my cousin is playing striker for) as making any bold political statement 'accepting Chinese behaviour' through their participation.

Who then is guilty of 'active support of totalitarianism' by participating in the olympics?


I think if you are a china hater for whatever reason (human rights, environment or whatever) you have good reason to feel glad that the olympics has gone there. Finally, China is actually EMBARRASSED about Tibet and its environmental status as a major poluter. When a country feels 'embarrassed' you can be sure that winds of change have started blowing.

China is evolving at warp speed, and as their economy grows you will see a major shift towards western ideals and living standards. As the 'bar gets raised' you'll see social reforms to meet each step in its economic and social development. But with the opportunity to make a country embarrassed, you will see reforms come on board even faster. I say the higher you let them aim - the faster you'll see them get there.

[deepvisual]

ooooh thats a long post..

lets break it down a little.

1 There is a big difference in someone who performs at the olympics and someone who is actively doing something to support Totalitarianism.

look at this picture again.

http://rhymeswithright.mu.nu/archives/images/naziMOS0902_468x196%5B1%5D.jpg

we all know what happened afterwards.
60 million dead


Who then is guilty of 'active support of totalitarianism' by participating in the olympics?
I'd say the athletes have an argument - but the corporate sponsorship bandwagon have very little justification for pitching their tent with the Communist Party of China other than profit.

2 China is actually EMBARRASSED about Tibet and its environmental status as a major poluter.

I think you misread the situation. The CPC is embarrassed about the criticism. It cares nothing about the right and wrongs of the issues. Nothing.

3 China is evolving at warp speed, and as their economy grows you will see a major shift towards western ideals and living standards.

This is just wishful thinking put out by the corporations as justification for doing business with tyrants. The agenda for a major shift to western ideals was set in Tiananmen Square. The success of Chinas economic growth with little or no rights for the workforce should be an alarm call to us all. Many of the big corporations would be delighted to see the same contempt for human rights enacted in the west - eg Walmart's anti union rules.

[PilotX]

you can go everywhere for the right reasons. in this case there are no reasons to do visuals. neither you nor your visuals will have any impact or transort any statement political , moral or ethical, you wont meet anyone you can influence or tell anything that would have the potential for the slightest change. to say being there is a change itself is a fundamental misunderstanding of the ambiguity of asian society. read Kenzaburo Oes great nobel price speach for some insights.

http://imagecache2.allposters.com/images/pic/PA2/PPR45008~Black-Power-Salute-1968-Olympics-Mexico-City-Posters.jpg

There are ways to go and still maintain your dignity, this image help spark a major change in ameriKKKan attitudes, and may seem like ancient history to some but happened the year after I was born, its not so long ago that you could get lynched for having the wrong ideas about your place in the world, and this in the "Land of the Free" *cough* no less.
Images can have power, otherwise there would be no propaganda, no advertising. So i think that it depends on the content of the works included maybe?

basically, I agree with devon miles - if I thought there would be any chance of getting political content, critical of the chinese regime wrt to tibet, falun gong, labour/workers rights, human rights, and maybe some other things that I'd find out about which I don't already know about - but I don't think there would be any chance, or at least if there was then it would have to involve some or all of the production company(s) involved to make it happen and I don't think that would happen.

oh, and I'm pretty sure that when I was in china in 2003 I could access vjforums - but it might have only been in hong kong that I used the internet.

[rayrik]

But what is the difference between working in an event held in a country you are ethically opposed to, and buying products that come from that same country
I feel sorry for anyone who do not see the difference. Taking time and some mental effort to understand the difference might be beneficial for anyone's general development as a human being and humanity as a whole.

[rolin]

Buying chinese products and working there
is not really a big difference in terms of moral!

Except, that you steal a chinese VJ's work, when you would do the latter -
so yes - working there would be worse.

But buying products, produced in a regime,
still supports the regime's economy financially -
the act is just more subtle and it's oh so far away, so why worrying!?

But wait … wouldn't it then be better again to work there,
because you take their money instead of shoving it into the dragon's mouth (H&M-piece by piece)!?

Many a little makes a mickle.

The more the better!

Things are not that easy.

Hands up, who has already worked for Coke.

Coke is not a regime, but the negative impact on the environment and
the population is not that different, but only spread worldwide.

I don't really get the fuzz*,
because the only “well known visual outfit",
who I am aware off, who has something to do with the Olympics
will not even be close to china, when things happen there.

As far as I know, this VJ has produced visuals for a major sports company in the past.
They will show a DVD there at one of their corporate events.

So the only mistake was, to mention it in a newsletter,
because even protesting wouldn't change much -
the job is payed and this company would do it anyway,
because the DVD is in their hands and it is big and mighty.

Let's face it - we are all just hypocrites!


*Don't get me wrong … I get the problem -
I try to avoid chinese products and
I would never VJ there!

[asterix]

I feel sorry for anyone who do not see the difference. Taking time and some mental effort to understand the difference might be beneficial for anyone's general development as a human being and humanity as a whole.
Well please enlighten us superficial types?

Deep, I'm looking forward to watching the opening ceremony. I'll keep an eye out for all the propoganda! Perhaps they'll have some stilt walkers kidnapping political vocalists or some choreographed executions...

[deepvisual]

I'll keep an eye out for all the propoganda!

have you been asleep?
not seen the undesirables being bussed out of town and the slums being covered up so the cameras can't see them?? (http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/aug/04/china.olympicgames2008)

[SteveG]

They are quick learners...blame al-Qaeda and what can the West say.

"Chinese police kill 18 “terrorists” in Xinjiang
The raid, occurred Friday, was publicised today by the police. According to China, Muslim separatists are linked with al- Qaeda. But many critics accuse China of using the excuse of terrorism to suppress religion and Uighur identity."

[vdmoKstaTi]

have you been asleep?
not seen the undesirables being bussed out of town and the slums being covered up so the cameras can't see them?? (http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/aug/04/china.olympicgames2008)


Chinese Government:


Look here, wear this, don't wear that. Don't look here, here and here. Move along, there is nothing to see, - its Olympics, you know?

When we wave the flag, everybody look happy for the cameras!

[haris]

I think that there is no point in talking about moral and ethic limitations related to the Modern Olympic Games.
It’s more than clear what the MOG are a complex political economical tool covered with a dubious athletic spirit aroma…
(the only thing in common with the Ancient Olympic Games is the title)
So, either you accept the MOG for what they are and consciously play along (after all it is a GAME) or just don’t bother…
It seams though that many people around the world draw profit or satisfaction from this set up, so again it seams that the MOG are tailor made to fit our modern needs for faster higher better stronger fancier etc etc at any cost.
peace J

[rayrik]

Well please enlighten us superficial types?

Deep, I'm looking forward to watching the opening ceremony. I'll keep an eye out for all the propoganda! Perhaps they'll have some stilt walkers kidnapping political vocalists or some choreographed executions...
Are you on some drugs or under mental treatment ? Only that could excuse you for absolutely disgusting comments.
It is not funny, you spoilt brat living in your save and comfortable hole at the end of the world, to joke about executions.
Your absence of moral sense is not excuse for disrespect for people killed, in jails or under torture.

[rolin]

This article kind of sums the absurdity
of the whole Olympics in Beijing thing:

How to Interact with Foreigners, and other Olympics Propaganda (peacefulrise.org) (http://www.peacefulrise.org/2008/07/18/interact-with-foreigners-olympics-propaganda/)

Peace.

[asterix]

Rayrik flaming never solves anything in an open discussion.

Deep, Sydney Olympic Games moved all the homeless out as well. These things are not nice and there are/will be plenty more examples (all this stuff is almost olympic standard now).

The argument is not whether I approve/support/hate the PRC. Back to the root of this conversation - how is a VJ or content producer working for the IOC, contributing to unethical government behaviour and standard. Unless they are developing 'propoganda' style content (which I would be opposed too) which is a conditional to the argument. My stance is that if they aren't, well what is the problem.

[bryandod]

Deep, Sydney Olympic Games moved all the homeless out as well. These things are not nice and there are/will be plenty more examples (all this stuff is almost olympic standard now).


Atlanta did the same thing in 1996. The city passed a law preventing urban camping and enforced it by arresting the homeless. Coca-Cola, the Olympics biggest sponsor, also used the opportunity to tear down Techwood homes, a notoriously violent housing project that was located next door to coke's headquarters. Centennial Olympic Park now stands where Techwood once stood. Coke had been trying to close this housing project for 20 years.

[deepvisual]

- how is a VJ or content producer working for the IOC, contributing to unethical government behaviour and standard. Unless they are developing 'propoganda' style content (which I would be opposed too) which is a conditional to the argument. My stance is that if they aren't, well what is the problem.

So, you would have no problem providing content for Al Qaida just so long as it is pretty flowers??
once you let go of content you have no say in how it is used or how it is contextualised. Participating in overtly political events is not a passive act.
merely by being present you are condoning the politics associated with it.

As you would soon find out if you went to America after being Bin Laden's VJ

[rayrik]

Rayrik flaming never solves anything in an open discussion.

.
It is about limits - respect,decency and common sense. You might be culturally conditioned and where you from executions might be considered funny and entertaining. I would suggest you keep these kinds of "funny" comments within your "cultural" context.
I feel it will be generally appreciated if you would take your "sense of humour" to less morally, emotionally and politically sensitive thread.
This discussion here is not going to solve anything,do not think the poster had such hopes or intentions. All it can bring is some more awareness, motivate some individuals to think, reconsider, perhaps read more, educate themselves about the subject, maybe reflect....

[rayrik]

Seeing news these days, the comments remind so much about the 30s and general attitude toward Hitler and his regime, not to provoke, "it is not so bad as some say", "we dot really have full picture", "they really make the efforts to solve Jewish(Tibetean) issue", "we cannot see it one-sided". Bringing Leni as example is to the point.
As for the crude arguments about someone buying M audio or a chinese radio, it wasn't because people in UK or US continue to drink Radeberger or Rheinwein, neither driving or not Mercedes Benz. Neither is using, buying chinese ballpen any moral issue now. Activly cooperating participating, supporting and profit from propaganda activities of totalitarian regime is the moral issue.

[deepvisual]

I have to agree with rayrik.
State organised kidnappings and political executions aren't particularly funny.

I raised the issue because of the timing, but not just because its China. The world has plenty of bad guys.
Most of us now live in countries that are at war and actively support extraordinary rendition and the torture of people they consider to be their opponents. This aggression overseas has been reflected at home by a massive political shift towards absolute control and away from individual freedom..

the issues around these political gigs aren't going to go away and we can't just assume that our actions are automatically consequence free.

[rolin]

... Neither is using, buying chinese ballpen any moral issue now. Activly cooperating participating, supporting and profit from propaganda activities of totalitarian regime is the moral issue.

Here it is ... the real sad thing!

Buying products from a regime is not a moral issue,
because everyone does it and no one cares!?

What a sad, poor, blind and ignorant society we are!?

Because a pen is just 50p?

And when millions buy such a pen?

Doesn't that support the system too,
but just in small steps.

It's not the single voice saying "Yes",
that keeps a regime up and running -
it's the summ of all those voices bringing it up or down!

"...it is not so bad as some say..."???

The other point is that it is so tasteless
to compare China with Nazi Germany,
which killed over 6 million people before and during WW2.

Not that it is any good, what China does (death penalty, Tibet),
but this comparison is exaggerated!

The only commonness is,
that both systems are regimes and there is the Olympics.

And China is not a totalitarian regime (like Nazi-Germany was),
it is an authoritarian regime and there is a difference!

Comparing China with the USA would be more appropriate -
they both have the death penalty, they go to other countries and
do what they want, their social systems are crap and
they both have/had the Olympic Games.

I think the other really big difference between Nazi-Germany and China is,
that the people of China have a chance and that there are far more good people,
that have a hope, a good soul and the power to change things and
also the right to participate in the olympic family with it's original peaceful idea.

Why couldn't it be, that even when it's just (olympic) games,
that it's a seed for a better future?

Maybe we should think of supporting the people of China and not their politics.

Wouldn't it then be a better idea to go there and see what happens,
than staying outside, ignoring those people because their government sucks?

[deepvisual]

well, I was vegetarian for 9 years and it didn't change a goddamn thing.
But there is a big difference between not eating meat and working for a butchers shop.

as for the germany comparisons.
No one has said the Chinese are Nazis, but they are using the Olympics as propaganda in a similar way to the Nazis.

[rayrik]

Chinese people are the worst victims of the totalitarian regime under which they suffer for over half of a century.
Mao was as sick and pervert megalomaniac as Hitler or Stalin, just worst because his empire lasts longer, caused more suffering and deaths and has gone global.
It is not only Chinese, Mongolians, Tibetans who are opressed. The maoist terrorism sponsord by China spread in South East Asia, North East and Central India, Colombia, Bolivia, Peru....etc,etc. Their strategy and praxis are same world over ruthlessnes, murder, torture. Entire villages are wiped out in same manner in Peru as in Orissa.
Nazi nightmare lasted dozen of years, the Chinese imperialism contiunues and grows everyday, those olimpic games are just their current high point of their global strategies.
Chinese state is the biggest and most efficient sponsor of terrorism worldwide, what makes them worse is they are way more clever then any other totalitarian state, and terrorist organisation, they know how to kill, torture, murder, blackmail and get away with it.

[Rovastar]

as for the germany comparisons.
No one has said the Chinese are Nazis, but they are using the Olympics as propaganda in a similar way to the Nazis.

To be fair rayrik comments were comparing Chinese to Nazis.

In fact I interrupted them worse, implying that the forums posters who comments here that are not 100% anti-China are like those who appeased the Nazi's just prior to WW2. A cheap and low blow. They are not the same and the is much evidence that China in recent years has, comparably, let their iron grip slip.

As I said on other threads of this ilk, I personally don't see too much wrong with performing at the Olympics and I am uneasy with some of the 'witch-hunting' tone people are taking.

well, I was vegetarian for 9 years and it didn't change a goddamn thing.
Apart from turning you into a hippie. :devil:

[asterix]

Oh fuck off rayrik, I could launch into a rant and rave about words that any normal person might understand like 'sarcasm'; or simply lay low and tread on eggshells the rest of my life in case the .1% of the world population that turn everything into a unique opportunity to wet thier panties and act like a drama queen.

You haven't raised any pertinent points or contributed constructively to this thread at all. Did you really read my post as 'hahaha - look at that poor fuck getting tortured - lol lol rofl'. Get a grip! It was not by any means meant to be funny but a rather bleeding obvious illustration of my point! If you have any more shit flinging to do - click my PM button.

If you're worried about offending peoples personalities then perhaps next time you will refrain from calling people drug addicts and mental cases because you don't agree with what they are saying. I've banned people for less!

[deepvisual]

please...
if anybody wants a fight, come down the VJLondon gathering tonight, but to be honest, I dont fancy your chances much....:Touch


so can we now get back to respecting each others opinions and have a reasonable discussion....?

I must say, having started out with a strong pro Tibet bais, I can see the other side of the argument. But therein lies the catch. The CPC are banking on people falling for this 'reframing' of the arguement. - its about the Olympics its not about China...

I'd say it is about China, and rayriks description of Militant Maoism is pretty spot on.

[SteveG]

please...
if anybody wants a fight, come down the VJLondon gathering tonight, but to be honest, I dont fancy your chances much....:Touch


Do you cover the expenses :lol2:.....I suppose a fee's out of the question :yep:

[rayrik]

If you're worried about offending peoples personalities then perhaps next time you will refrain from calling people drug addicts and mental cases because you don't agree with what they are saying. I've banned people for less!
I am really sorry for misunderstanding, I had no intention calling anyone drug addict or mental case but rather seeing one of the 2 or both as genuine excuse for joking about executions. Since the answer indicates that it is not the case, there is no excuse therefore see no point in any further communication as there can be none due to extreme intellectual and cultural differences.
I am somehow concern about banishment, the locality in particular, specially if I could be mistakenly taken for Her Majesty subject and possibly sent to down under colony in worst case even Northern Territory. "I've banned people for less!" that`s scary.

[rayrik]

The main reason why Maoist militants are so little in any media is that in Peru or India it is almost strictly rural. Even though just in last 2 years only in my home province of Orissa were around 700 people killed in the fights, even our own media hardly pays much attention, unlike bombings in Mumbai , Ahmedabad or Bangalore. Some poor peasants or tribals dead, even whole village it is nothing spectacular, no movie stars to show up in hospitals and appealing for communal harmony or whatever. If not for some kidnapped celebrities Sendero Luminoso aka. Shinning Path would remain equally unknown.
Same in case of China itself, how little is known of the great famine, disasters caused directly by Mao`s utopical industrial reforms, village steel industry fiasco and consequences. Even now so much is known about low paid, half slave labour and incredible prosperity of some but again it is all about cities, the fate of the rural population of China is not that much better known as 20 or 50 years ago.
At least in Germany it is obvious that nearly everybody, including politicians disapprove the practices of chinese regime.
Not so industry, contrary they love it. China is every capitalist dream, no need for mafia to deal with the unions, the whole state machine takes care of it. I witnessed speach of one of the top VW bosses explaining how people "dont understand specifics" how "our democracy in not applicable in Asia" ( I am from India and our democracy is doing better then German one) Of course they want that market they want to assemble there, 60 hours better 65 hours week, no pension funds to pay to, "no unions, no Betriebsrat, no Brussels mixing in. "Go Volksrepublic, go!

[asterix]

possibly sent to down under colony in worst case even Northern Territory.

Yes well I'm from the Northern Territory actually!!

That aside I don't think the argument here is disputing China's track record, we're all on the same page. Once again I notice examples rattled off with no mention of Darfur (400,000 + dead) which is (allegedly) directly related to Chinese oil supply.

Of course the olympics is very much about the country as it is the games, but in my recollections it is more about showing off the region and culture. I could imagine what would occur if propoganda were even hinted at during the games.

[deepvisual]

well you'll be disappointed to hear nobody turned up for a fight, which was a shame as I was hoping to impress the girls...

[Meierhans]

I just red the report about Falun gong that has been posted before.

(here is the link again)

http://organharvestinvestigation.net/

There are translations into many languages available on the website.

It left me speechless and very sad. Especially the fact that they did build up many new hospitals for transplantation is just terrible. I would really kindly ask everybody who still believes its ok to put his or her work into Olympia in Bejing to read this report to make shure he/she knows who he is dealing with.

More on this later. Need some time to digest it. Thats pure horror.

[deepvisual]

I could imagine what would occur if propoganda were even hinted at during the games.

could you clarify this as my understanding is that the Olympics itself with its ceremonies and parades and stunning architecture is the propaganda. the sport is just a sideshow.

[sleepytom]

Of course the olympics is very much about the country as it is the games, but in my recollections it is more about showing off the region and culture. I could imagine what would occur if propoganda were even hinted at during the games.
do you have no conception of what propaganda actually consists of? the whole point of the games is for the hosting country to pump the international press full of stories about how said host country is good and clean and full of happy joyful people. That's why the racist Australian Government cleared out the streets and slums of the large numbers of homeless alcoholic Aboriginals who were living close to the Sydney games complex. That's why they Chineese want people like you to say "let's ignore the human rights record and look at what they have that is good to offer the world". Simply holding the games is a massive propaganda exercise to claim that their won't be propaganda during the games themselves is laughable.

[asterix]

Well if the smog ever clears up they might actually achieve that. But I was refering to hardline political statements, I associate the word with negative connotations - deception, power mongering, etc.

[Rovastar]

well you'll be disappointed to hear nobody turned up for a fight, which was a shame as I was hoping to impress the girls...

There were girls there!!?!!!

[sleepytom]

Well if the smog ever clears up they might actually achieve that. But I was refering to hardline political statements, I associate the word with negative connotations - deception, power mongering, etc.IT IS NEGATIVE - god damn it i'm flabbergasted at the fundamental level that you don't get this on. Saying that "China with it's happy faced population and clapping crowds is open for business with the west" is a hard line political statement. It is saying "we will produce your products for less no matter what the costs to the workers" it's saying "we are so good at control that you will not see any poor people or dissidents or people disabled by industrial accidents at our Olympics"

the Modern Olympics is a propaganda exercise and always has been. It's a great opportunity to put across an alternative point of view http://tbn0.google.com/images?q=tbn:h1pgVnVubjz9XM:http://artfiles.art.com/images/-/Black-Power-Mexico-City-Olympics-1968-Poster-C12055191.jpeghowever if your not doing something like this then your supporting the official line which is a propaganda exercise for china.

sadly the VJ work i've seen in relation to the Olympics has been very wishy washy non-political sucking up to the corporate sportswear manufacturers and their sweatshop production techniques. Whilst people are probably getting good money for doing these pieces the source of the money is dubious and the context of the broader political issues of this Olympics makes it even less defensible to make such content for sports brands...

anyway lets have a look at addictive's effort shall we?
YouTube - "Sportive" by Addictive TV

[rayrik]

There was a little report on chinese sport school on German TV today, maybe some of that stuff is on YouTube. You have to see it to believe. That school is in Shanghai training the future gold winners.
This one might be about same school but I suppose that there is more of that.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/2368490/China's-children-still-paying-for-gold.html (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/2368490/China%27s-children-still-paying-for-gold.html)
Sport was always used for political purpose but despite use of illegal drugs even in Cuba or East Germany they were staying within certain limits, some human lives were wrecked, specially in GDR but not of children.

[asterix]

I get that Tom and already spoken about that.
:horse:
Winning a gold medal is then and opportunity for propoganda - do we veto other olympics that allow chinese participants in case they win gold too (lets not forget that the athletes are making political statements in all these photos getting bandied around here)?

Which is why I've raised consumerism as well - I mean where do you draw the line and say this is ethical but this is ok? When do you arrive at a point where creating an AV set of people running/swimming etc for display at an olympic games held in China, is sending a clear or even vaguely submissive message that Chinese totalitarianism is ok? Are people really that stupid that opinions will be even minutely changed based on what video tech performed - and isn't the intention for opinion change what makes propaganda what it is?

If you vjed at a smirnoff sponsored gig are you supporting alcoholism? Am I unethical if I comment to my friends on how architecturally interesting the games swimming pavillion is (same thing on a local scale isn't it)?

You need to put your opinions about China aside for one moment and look at any argument objectively.

[asterix]

Personally, I can't remember much about any opening ceremony except for Mohammad Ali (atlanta games) or Cathy Freeman (australia) lighting the stadium flame. Oh and maybe some massive lighting projections in Australia.

As for the games themselves, I think of those skinny negro guys in their green and yellow running suits, who trained in the fields of their family goat farm wooping ass against western athletes who have someone monitoring everything down to what color terd they produced to make sure they have the best chance of winning. And of course the events where our aussies competed in.

I don't know what its like in other countries, but when an Aussie wins gold at the olympics (and believe me, we clean up!) the emotional response across the country is unbelievably extraordinary. In Australia we have no cultural heros, our idols are sports people (I mean that in the most profound way). That kind of reaction is 3,000% more memorable/powerful than my impression of what country it was held in.

I certainly can't remember anything about barcelona (except perhaps a vague recollection of that cheesy olympics pop song).

Personally if you wanted to look at what effect an olympic games in China will have on the world, it will be much the same, except everyone in every corner of the globe is discussing the negatives of Chinese totalitarian rule in a way that would rival even Tienamon Square. If anything it has left a blemish on China that all the architecture, fluffy journalism and other so called 'propaganda' you could muster won't make a dent on.

[sleepytom]

that's the point though isn't it? We are not talking about human rights because of the people who've said "yes" to working at the olympics we are talking about human rights because people have said "no"
addicives piece adds nothing to the debate it's just more sportswear advertising.

[Donnie Darko]

would you do visuals for a corporate event if the client was say... american tobacco ?

[asterix]

Re-read my post. We are discussing it, and the closer we get the more people are talking about it; rhetorical questions about vj's performing or not. I doubt there would have been a day in the past month where I haven't discussed it with someone or seen it in the media.

[deepvisual]

just a side note..

the lighting guys must be the only people delighted at the smog levels.
even the nearby street lights are producing beams on the BBC news - & I'm sure its not down to my eyes...

[Rovastar]

that's the point though isn't it? We are not talking about human rights because of the people who've said "yes" to working at the olympics we are talking about human rights because people have said "no"
addicives piece adds nothing to the debate it's just more sportswear advertising.

I think it is part of the debate.

Separating the Olympics works from China. Just take it for what it is - sportwear advertising and not subversive point making. It doesn’t have to be.

From an moral/ethical point of view personally I think the media spotlight on China has highlighted many problems - I do wonder how much we/media/etc would be chatting about China's human rights record/Tibet if the Olympics was not there. I expect not much at all.

Personally I think change will take time and I do think that they have improved their record in recent times. There have slightly more freedoms now than 15-20 years ago.

would you do visuals for a corporate event if the client was say... american tobacco ?

Probably. It doesn't bother me as much. Obviously there are limits but for me most corps would be ok. Other VJs/visual artists no doubt will go by corpwatch ratings.

Some would not work for McDonalds, Oil Giants, alcohol conglomerates, walmarts, Microsoft, etc. Fine but I have/would.

Look at corpwatch they say all corps are evil in some way. Can you never work for a large company if you follow their mantra.

[rayrik]

"China with it's happy faced population and clapping crowds is open for business with the west" is a hard line political statement. It is saying "we will produce your products for less no matter what the costs to the workers" it's saying "we are so good at control that you will not see any poor people or dissidents or people disabled by industrial accidents at our Olympics"

The message delivered today, even on LED carpet.

[sleepytom]

Look at corpwatch they say all corps are evil in some way. Can you never work for a large company if you follow their mantra.

well the concept of corporations which answer only to their shareholders is pretty evil in itself, as such then yes all corporations are towards the evil end of the good/evil balance! But the point of corporatewatch is to enable people to research in which ways a corporation is evil, using this information you can then decide how much you care about it.

Eg people used to dislike PG Tips because they used monkeys in the adverts - these days they are seen as less evil as they don't use the monkeys and are converting to rainforest alliance growing standards.

It's important to be informed about the people you work for. Unless you really don't care and are happy to take anyone's money even if they turn out to be an arms manufacturer with a sideline in child porn!

[rayrik]

Eg people used to dislike PG Tips because they used monkeys in the adverts - these days they are seen as less evil as they don't use the monkeys and are converting to rainforest alliance growing standards.


Are you serious ? I drink 1-2 liters of PG a day but it is not marketed in Germany (only Indian shops have them) so never knew anything about PG monkeys. What is it (about) that monkey business?

[deepvisual]

YouTube - PG Tips UK Commercial (c.1971)

[deepvisual]

http://www.pimpmycountry.com/beijing2008.mp4

[rayrik]

Oh, very disappointing. i am big fan of UK advertising but those monkeys... no.
At least learned why all expatriates are hooked on PR tips, the most popular tea brand in India is made by same company (Hindustan Lever is part of the multi).

[sleepytom]

Yeah the new monkey (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monkey_(advertising_character)) ads are much better anyway

On a side note can anyone name another fictional character who was invented to advertise a product (itv digital in monkeys case) but who lived on past the demise of the brand who he first advertised to get work with another brand advertising their product? I've been puzzled by this for a while and have yet to hear of any previous occurrences of such a thing.

[rayrik]

Yeah the new monkey (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monkey_%28advertising_character%29) ads are much better anyway

much better, have even own myspace, liked the out takes there. Maybe because I was born the year of monkey i have some liking for these creatures. Any links for some usable resolution clips, I cant resist to built it into live shows.

[deepvisual]

I sent this email to addictive.
so far no reply...

Given ...............



deleted pending reply.

thanks

Gary Oldknow.

[sleepytom]

I like this video more than addictives one - it's better produced and has something to say where their video is just a poor quality montage of sports footage (which frankly fails to even evoke feelings of the Olympic spirit of fairness and co-operation between people and just looks like a load of Adidas stock footage cut together quickly without much effort - which is a shame as their normal standard of work is much better)
YouTube - Fair Play - fair pay : ActionClip

[asterix]

I find that move a bit absurd Gary.
Imagine if I had sent you this letter:


Given the dreadful nature of the regime in Beijing, with its routine torture, 50 year long occupation of Tibet, execution to order of Falun Gong followers for organ transplants and imprisonment without trial, I wonder if you, Gary Oldknow could kindly outline your reasons for supporting the Communist Party of China by using and selling electronic goods with components developed in Chinese sweatshops, and funding thier government through tariffs and taxes made from the sale of those goods.

'well, we all know that we can't escape the modern world. we would have to live like monks and even then it would be almost impossible.' - is exactly the kind of reframing of debate the CPC are relying on.
While its normal for western corporations and governments to Kowtow to Beijing, there is no real need for small business people to subsidise China's ability to perform such actions through commerce.

I'd imagine you would be quite pissed off. I know I would and Im wondering how that does anything to support your cause?

[deepvisual]

far from it.

in fact I am quite happy to justify my actions.
Dont let your obvious bias cloud your reasoning.
I'd like to know their justification. They can always say f*ck off.
I didn't say they were bastards and it's not like we are complete strangers.
They may well have agonised over it long and hard or were pushed into it by long term commitments.
maybe they just needed the money.

I'm never a big fan of polls but so far its half and half.
I think its reasonable to ask and we should know their side of the story.

[asterix]

Deffammation and accusation - not the most tactful way to go about it if you seriously want an answer (maybe invite them into this thread next time rather than risk being sued). EDITED TO ADD: In fact I'd prefer if the email was removed! END

Did you write a similar letter to the IOC - coke or McDonalds, your local sports council, the companies that manufactured the stadiums, the TV Stations that broadcast it, etc or did you just reserve the need to publicly ridicule people who made a completely politically VOID and BENIGN video with people playing sport?

This is the problem with the far left (and far right) - they don't realise they should be aiming for the center!

[deepvisual]

honestly.
there is nothing defamatory in the email.
any accusations are reasonable and in my opinion accurate.
your family loyalty is very noble but you may hold a different opinion in this matter if your cousin was in china undergoing a year of 're-education through labour' for 'spreading gossip (http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/jul/31/china.chinaearthquake)' instead of being a competitor.

My stance has nothing to do with my personal politics of which you know nothing.
it is a direct result of my many visits to China and Tibet and to the city of Xining where my friend's father died in a labour camp while being 're-educated' by the Communist Party of China.

I think it would have been far worse of me to snipe behind their backs on the net and even worse, be a hypocrite and do nothing.

I'll take it down for now... but I can't see why.

[SteveG]

I'm not going to comment on your mail Gary but can only say if given this sort/level of oportunity I personally would have taken it too possibly. Oportunities like this only come around once in a lifetime and what would little old me/you/us saying no really achieve. I would be achieving more by quietly refusing to buy goods made in or with any Chinese input...I'd be without most of my DJ gear and VJ gear though as would you;)
Think of the household and consumer items etc that China supply or contribute too. I feel the pressure should have come much earlier in the Olympic process and aimed towards Govts and from Govts, refusing to support and take part in the games. As I've also said in other threads on the subject I also feel that normal people doing their thing in China will educate and help China progress faster.
We, most of us are prepared to work in other countries that also have issues...including our own. It's not so long ago our own human rights and ethics were not so good, are they any better now actually. We progressed as have other counties too.....all on a different time line, China will too in time, of that I am also sure.....business will dictate this if nothing else. Individuals who have contributed so far may have had their own pressures surrounding their involvement and decissions to take part in the shape of pre-signed contracts etc promises of future work....who knows. I know some may view this as a poor excuse perhaps but you never know peoples personal reasons or circumstances.
I would just hope that any contribution is helping to achieve something possitive and not negative to help improve things in China.

[deepvisual]

well, Steven Speilburg felt differently to you steve, as does the chap who built the stadium Ai Weiwei (http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2008/aug/07/olympics2008.china)

I do feel you are mistaken in saying that quietly not buying goods from china will make more difference than actively refusing to perform at Pro CPC events like the Olympics. I'd support an active boycott of 'made in china' but on an individual level, its just you versus the corporations, who have far more economic clout that the individual. However, political pressure on corporations and the CPC does work, as does concerted economic pressure. A good example of this is the way the 'great firewall of China' has been taken down for the duration of the Olympics due to active criticism. This wouldn't have happened if journalists just turned up in Beijing and wrote about the sport.
Furthermore, just because Politics and corporations kowtow to the CPC, that doesn't make it ok for everyone to do business with the CPC.
I have a long history of projection activism with the free Tibet campaign ( that I can't go into here as they'd never let me go back to Tibet) so I am no armchair general.
Its a tricky issue for sure and its wrong to hate people or even blame them for taking part, but it is right to question them about it and ask them to justify their position. I do think some people just don't think at all about this and similar issues, which is why I started this thread.
its been educating and apart from a few entrenched views there has been some reasonable debate.

[SteveG]

Being Ai WeiWei...I'd be happy staying away too....but I'll bet he accepted payment for his retirement fund first;) haven't read the article by the way sorry but get the gist.

I wonder why this thread has attracted so few votes and comments compared to say the equipment purchase thread...almost the same views but a fraction of the votes and comments. Are forum members a little apprehensive about showing their true feelings on this one. I think they possibly are.

Of course I agree with your right on your stance and point of view on the subject. You speak many wise words I just feel on such a huge issue and subject our words and small actions are or would be futile. Even the 2 brave Brittons and others that went and raised the flag of protest, were arrested, released and flown home. It grabbed a few hours news and is now forgotten...what did it achieve.

Again I'll add that even seeing how the Chinese reacted and handled this situation was so different than it may have been several years ago...it probably would have been blown out of all proportion into a major International incident and the guys involved may have been inside for weeks or months. Their attitudes will and are changing imo.

I think too as any sort of performer if you start questioning who you are prepared to work for it will become very difficult...where do you draw the line. Yes of course there are perhaps the obvious ones but if taking this point of view in business would it not be proper to take it with all. Perhaps the next promoter or event you work for is pushing or supplying cheap drugs on the streets to school kids or at the event to boost their profits, perhaps the brand is using cheap labour from who knows where etc. If your in any line of work and are treating it as business then to start asking ethical questions would make it difficult to be successful in that business I think. Many quite happily go and work in the Middle East for instance their Human Rights record is appalling too..where do you draw the line. It's the individuals choice and it's a decission they alone will have to face up to later.

[deepvisual]

I wonder why this thread has attracted so few votes and comments compared to say the equipment purchase thread...almost the same views but a fraction of the votes and comments. Are forum members a little apprehensive about showing their true feelings on this one. I think they possibly are..

at a guess I'd say they don't do politics.
being a kit dragon is far more rewarding.:D

[Rovastar]

We progressed as have other counties too.....all on a different time line, China will too in time, of that I am also sure.....business will dictate this if nothing else.

The pure beauty of capitalism and globalisation.

[sleepytom]

bollocks capitalism and globalisation do nothing to improve human rights.

your belief that such things are a natural progression shows an incredible lack of understanding of what corporations are and how they function.

read this book http://www.amazon.com/Corporation-Pathological-Pursuit-Profit-Power/dp/0743247442

[asterix]

Im not sure what you mean by family loyalty??

Well we are having discussion which is a powerful form of activism. I don't see anyone in disagreement on opinions of China, and through further education you can achieve alot.

It is easy to take your eye off ball and achieve the opposite, especially when you present grey opinion vs fact!

I am interested to know your thoughts on the WATER CUBE (http://english.hanban.edu.cn/english/environment/194074.htm) aquatic centre.
Its environmentally friendly design features are going to be an inspiration to other countries, and perhaps create a new aspiration in Chinese Architecture. We all know of the importance of China's need to become more energy and water efficient.

[sleepytom]

your a sports fan and your cousin is in the olympics - so you love the olympics and will defend it to the death even when it has been hijacked by a brutal regime and used as a political tool to paint a pretty picture of a happy friendly open china which in reality doesn't exist. I'd guess that that is what Gary is referring to when he speaks of family loyalty - but equally he could be speaking of the "video family" and your feeling of need to defend addictive? there are other levels it could work on too but lets not over play the metaphors

anyway 1 addictive can defend themselves if they want to. 2 I don't see working for an international sports brand who have a history of sweatshop production as being a politically void and benign. You might be a sports fan and thus love sports companies but their production techniques have been the subject of sustained political pressure and as such choosing to produce promotional work for a sports company is a political choice and one that people should be aware that they will be criticized for. (I'd be pretty shocked if addictive thought that they would produce a piece for adidas at the china olympics and not get some flack for it!)

funnily enough i had the opportunity to produce a similar piece for Nike during the Sydney games - they were offering a significant amount of money which we (the VJamm Allstars) turned down as we did not want to be associated with the Nike brand of child labour. It was a hard decision to make (as we really could of done with the money) but ultimately I'm happy that we chose not to work for an organisation which I felt was ethically dubious at the time.

Many many people simply don't think like that and will take whatever work comes their way. Whilst it is down to the individual to work out their own ethics I wish that everyone would take more consideration about the companies that they work for. After all you can only change things by taking action. You might not want to change anything - that's fine but I reserve the right to criticize people for their actions just as they can criticize me for mine (I wait for rovastar to slag me off for being a hippy and point out that i wouldn't be so poor if only i would do some work for some oil companies!)

[Nema]

Have you people ever BEEN in china, or is everything you know and say based on what you know through western media? Do you really think WE are that good and THEY are just that bad? Do you really think you know what is good and bad?

Sure, some things may be really bad in china, but don't forget that many many things are not ok here in the 'western world' too. It is always easier to point on others rather than admitting our own mistakes.

I HAVE been there some years ago, and I was very impressed. China as a nation is definitely on the rise, and I wish them all the luck to face and overcome all related problems.

Btw, I am writing this with a keyboard with a DELL label on the front, but on the bottom it is written "made in china". Check your own keyboard.

[deepvisual]

Have you people ever BEEN in china, or is everything you know and say based on what you know through western media? Do you really think WE are that good and THEY are just that bad?

yawn

yes
no
no

This a very poor argument .

Two wrongs don't make a right. Besides the people here who criticise Chiina are usually just as vocal about Bush, Israel - you name it.....

Just because the US/UK invaded Iraq doesn't mean its ok for the CPC to routinely torture and imprison without trial etc etc etc.

[asterix]

Oh right that sort of family loyalty. Well my cousin Des Abbot just murdered the Canadians. 70 seconds on the field and he'd scored two goals and one try, three in all by the end of the match. Aus 6:1 !

[sleepytom]

Have you people ever BEEN in china,
No I haven't been to china.

or is everything you know and say based on what you know through western media? No much of what i know about china is direct information from people who've lived there, and from NGOs who work in china monitoring human rights.

Do you really think WE are that good and THEY are just that bad? Do you really think you know what is good and bad?
No i don't think that WE (whoever that is) are good, we (as in the UK) are pretty awful when it comes to international relations, however we do benefit from the luxury of some legislation to protect workers rights and enforce minimum standards of pay, sickness benefits, health and safety and environmental control. These things do not go far enough domestically but are significantly better than what is available in China.
as to knowing what is good and bad? do you really not know the difference between Good and Bad? I'm not talking about passing judgement on the social and cultural differences between far removed cultures but on simple basic things like not having clean water to drink, not having to suffer dangerous working conditions for a very low wage and living without fear of imprisonment in forced labour camps.


Sure, some things may be really bad in china, but don't forget that many many things are not ok here in the 'western world' too. It is always easier to point on others rather than admitting our own mistakes.

why do you assume that I blame china or even the Chinese government? much of what is wrong with china is OUR fault - we are the ones who's rampant consumerism is the root of much of china's ills. It's multinational corporations (such as Adidas) who ensure their profits are kept huge by keeping workers conditions poor and wages low. But that doesn't mean the Chinese government are beyond criticism.

[Rovastar]

bollocks capitalism and globalisation do nothing to improve human rights.

your belief that such things are a natural progression shows an incredible lack of understanding of what corporations are and how they function.

read this book http://www.amazon.com/Corporation-Pathological-Pursuit-Profit-Power/dp/0743247442

Was 'The corporation' made into a film? (I would say documentary but I won't as I am old fashioned and think documentaries should contain facts unlike your hippie heroes like Michael Moore, etc) talking about corporations would be psychopaths if they were human being, etc. If so I think I remember a few years ago seeing a bit of this. I don’t remember much about it but I seem to remember as usual with these highly biased, loaded films

A subproduct of capitalism and globalisation is improved human rights despite how much you dislike it. Economic pressures and conforming to the rest of the world will improve human rights. Personally I think more than any ‘direct action’ that people might do.

(I wait for rovastar to slag me off for being a hippy and point out that i wouldn't be so poor if only i would do some work for some oil companies!)

:) No need for me to tell you - you know already. :)

[Architects of Tomorrow]

[quote=asterix;203901]I find that move a bit absurd Gary.
Imagine if I had sent you this letter:

You forgot the mobile execution vans that harvest fresh organs from the condemned for export - now that is truly disturbing

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Execution_van

[sleepytom]

A subproduct of capitalism and globalisation is improved human rights despite how much you dislike it.
rubbish where are your facts to back up this belief?

[asterix]

rubbish where are your facts to back up this belief?
Have a look around you Tom. The richest nations have the best human rights record. Uncertainty and insecurity leads to removal or abuse of rights. PRC is a relatively young nation which was formed after civil war. When a nation is 'poor' and people struggle to put food on the table, there is more chance of retaliation and governements act oppressively.

Im not waving any flags (I certainly do not endorse this) that is just the way I see it. A better economy will see rapid and positive change in China.

[sleepytom]

rubbish...

that's the trouble with the isolationist point of view - don't you understand that the reason that workers in china suffer bad conditions is not because the Chinese are an evil cruel race but because the western nations which buy Chinese exports demand such low prices that all corners are cut to keep the price low.

If china's economy improves to the point where they are no longer a provider but a consumer then all that will of happened is the cheapest place to have things manufactured will of moved to another 3rd world country which will have equally bad conditions for workers, and a similar disregard for the environment.

Capitalism simply doesn't improve the welfare of the people at the bottom of the heap, over time the people who are right at the bottom might change but they will always be oppressed, they will always be working in substandard conditions and they will always destroy their local environment to produce the products that keep the rich happy.

It's pretty basic political theory here, the true capitolist will admit this but won't see it as a problem (they would instead argue for a free market where individuals can freely move and choose where to work claiming that this then would give the poor the ability to improve themselves)

Please read some basic political theory if you want to talk about politics otherwise there is not a conversation to be had. What you believe to be true based upon the "look around you" method simply isn't how the world works - you have to understand some of the background theory to be able to think about this stuff otherwise you'll only have a very restricted view point.

[asterix]

Ahh seeing is believing though Tom.

Are you trying to deny that living conditions in China have improved considerably since they began to embrace the mixed market economic model?

The 'poverty line', the gap between rich and poor has existed well and truly before capitalism began. In China Mixed market economies have reduced that gap. I remember a little nation called the UK having an industrial revolution at the turn of last century, when its regular folks ate rats and were locked up for stealing loaves of bread, worked in shit conditions and were lucky to have a roof over their head. But as its economy grew (through capitalism) the social conditions changed.

Yes they couldn't have done it without foreign investment and trade. Australia was the Queens lacky until after the war, and now look at us!

The simple fact is that without foreign trade and investment - China wouldn't stand a chance! For centuries Chinas perspective was that it was the center of the world and didn't need anyone or anything outside of its borders. Now they realise they're biting their own arse if they don't.

Like I said, Im not waving flags but you wanted evidence to support Rova's claim. It seems quite logical too me what the outcome will be.

[sleepytom]

Ahh seeing is believing though Tom.

Are you trying to deny that living conditions in China have improved considerably since they began to embrace the mixed market economic model?

I've not seen evidence to support this claim - the information which i've seen would suggest that the poorest people in china are much worse off since china has embraced foreign investment as they are forced to work for slave wages and have had their access to farmland and housing dramatically reduced forcing them into cities where they can only find poorly paid dangerous work.

The 'poverty line', the gap between rich and poor has existed well and truly before capitalism began. In China Mixed market economies have reduced that gap.
Evidence to support this claim? Again the information that i have on this subject doesn't hold this to be true - Sure china now has a middle class which did not really exist before, however the poorest people in china are now much worse off than they were before.
I remember a little nation called the UK having an industrial revolution at the turn of last century, when its regular folks ate rats and were locked up for stealing loaves of bread, worked in shit conditions and were lucky to have a roof over their head. But as its economy grew (through capitalism) the social conditions changed. again your making the mistake of viewing the UK in isolation - the UK only became richer and improved its social conditions because of the slave trade, and again the conditions for the very poorest actually got worse in the UK at each step of the road to the empire, from enclosure onwards the poor became poorer and had their traditional livelihoods removed from them, forcing them into cities where the work they could find was less well paid and much more dangerous than their traditional way of life had been in rural England.


The simple fact is that without foreign trade and investment - China wouldn't stand a chance! Stand a chance of what? If you only measure success via GDP then yeah sure your right - but if your concerned about the genuine well-being of the poorest people then your claim does not hold true.

[deepvisual]

Oh right that sort of family loyalty. Well my cousin Des Abbot just murdered the Canadians. 70 seconds on the field and he'd scored two goals and one try, three in all by the end of the match. Aus 6:1 !

thats great.
politics aside, one of the best gigs I ever worked was the medals ceremony at Turin.
seeing those 20 somethings having the best day of their life was something special.

[MJ]

from
http://www.lightnetwork.com

As to the content
The Tiaji part come from Andree Verleger of Germany who also did the whale. Spin-effects of Australia did the doves, birds and faces of kids. The rest came from the Chinese production centre. General colour wash and splurge came from either HES content or my own stuff.
Dennis Gardner
DLP Programmer for the Olympic Games

all video was done by 120 Axon Media Servers
read more in this thread http://www.lightnetwork.com/messages.php?msg=25586.1

[vjpixylight]

The middle class in China will be larger than the population of Germany in a few years. Even though China has hundreds of millions of rural people living on a dollar a day, it is creating middle class affluence on a scale and at a speed unprecedented in human history.

From http://www.wikinvest.com/concept/Rise_of_China's_Middle_Class

The meteoric rise in China’s middle class is tied to dramatic increases in its per capita income, which is growing at a nearly unprecedented rate. The first industrial revolution created a 250% increase in per capita income over a 100 year period. The second industrial revolution triggered 350% per capita income growth over 60 years. By comparison, China is on track to create a 700% growth in per capita income in just 20 years.

With this rise in median income it won't be long b4 China has a solid 30% of it's population as a recognized middle class...

[asterix]

Anyway we're heading off track. The future prospects are no excuse for the status quo.

[vjpixylight]

Anyway we're heading off track. The future prospects are no excuse for the status quo.

how so Asterix?
The Chinese Gov't have gone out of their way to show China as a major economic power by pouring so much money into these Olympics.
These Olympics are turning out to be the most expensive ever, (http://2008gamesbeijing.com/most-expensive-olympic-games-ever-43-billion/)
and the Chinese undoubtedly are seeing this as an investment, not only with their growing economic prowess, but as one of the world's ameteur sport authorities.
The simple fact remains, [the Chinese authorities] have felt it reach them in a way that, had the Olympics not been happening, they probably wouldn't have.
Only the future will tell of course, if this will be a positive force for change in which China can now politically reform themselves in the Olympic aftermath...