Software Scan Converter

[DocSavage]

Is this possible? Has it been done?

What i mean when I say software scan converter is software that works with your video card to allow zooming in on one specific part of the computer screen. So on your monitor you'd get the whole thing, but on your video out from your video card you'd only get the zoomed portion.

Ryan

[MoRpH]

Not sure if there is but that would be hella cool for laptops if you got your whole screen on the LCD and just a zoomed (upscaled) part on your monitor out....... interesting idea... not sure if it could be done in software though :(

[DocSavage]

It *should* be possible...I know with my All in Wonder 128 you set what you see on the screen and set what you see on the monitor...when you go with a resolution above what the video card supports for video out it goes into a wierd zoom mode...so if you can lock the position of the screen and force the resolution out to 640X480....

But I imagine it'd be different coding for each video card. I'm gonna take this to some video card gurus and see what they think of the idea.

Ryan

[eXhale]

I have the feeling a software scan converter would end up using all your memory and you wouldn't be able to use your fav VJ app. This is why scan converters are hardware, I guess.

[MoRpH]

Yeah I guess although you shouldn't be dealing with a lot of data if you are cropping/zooming, but I guess it might take some CPU to do a nice bicubic interpolated upscale.

[DocSavage]

If it is done the way I'm thinking of it, it shouldn't eat up any memory at all...basically all i'm doing is tricking the TV-out into thinking it's in 640X480 mode instead of 1024X768. Although there's probably no way to make the screen and monitor display different things because it's all really just one 'output' to begin with... hmmm


Ryan

[eXhale]

If it was so simple, why would we need a special graphic card (geforce, g450, etc) for cloning / zooming?

[peri]

Why? Just buy a Matrox card?

No really i understand what you mean and i now that there is something like that. It is for presentations and you can zoom a part to a second monitor. I saw it somewhere once, but van't remember where... Just wondering why only Matrox uses the technique and not Nvidia

Gr,

per-i :eek:

[MoRpH]

Well you can't put a matrox card in a laptop..... and I guess if there was software out there doing it like you mention it would be exactly right and would be setup for laptops as thats what most presentations are done on..... anyone got anymore info on that???

[DocSavage]

You know, it wouldn't surprise me if there was some bullshit office presentation software that could do this for us.

[HuoLong]

if you still got free cpu (after VJ app) of course you can use a "software scanconverter"... but you need a lot of cpu to "just" copy an area from screen to another window...

nvidias detonator has this software... and there are many other softs that can do that "better"... i think "multimon" or something like that was very good...

btw. does matrox "even" use directDraw?

-huolong

[phunkyguy]

You can pull this off with most laptops. Almost any ATI video card has a driver for it available that lets you do 2 separate vieo outputs from your laptop.

Thing is, it only runs in Windows 98. You have to specify a lower resolution (600 x 800 max) to get both displays going. You can just plug in the monitor, then activate it on the Display Properties. Also know as multimon or dual desktop. Great if you have a projector that accepts SVGA.

My laptop is 700mhz with 192MB of RAM. Video card is either 4MB or 8mb, and it handles SVi without a problem. It was kinda tricky getting SVi's output window on the second output (Look in the SVi post for more info).

As far as software scan convertors go on desktops, I recommend spending $20 on another video card, lowering the resolution on it, and making it a second monitor. All the big OSes support multimon in some form.

Phunkyguy

[MoRpH]

Yeah I can see what your saying with SVi (sorry I didn't post BTW busy moving house)....

But then you don't get an output window on your monitor :( I think what we mean is selecting an area of the screen to clone out to your video out.... like the video out on the new laptops, maybe there is a way of accessing it directly. I mentioned getting it out your monitor out in my other post but getting a cloned selected area out of your video out scaled up to full PAL/NTSC rez) would be sweet as hell :D

[MoRpH]

Originally posted by *****
Besides Whats this Bizzare BULLSHIT idea of trying to bring low res up to composite? surely ta fuck if VJs are ever going to be taken seriously, we need to be working at At very least broadcast composite res, instead of fucking about with mickey mouse stuff?

IMO unless we are developing o/p at composite minamum from a higher res, we are wasting time on junk. *yawn* not the rez debate AGAIN......... ***** some ppl like the low rez look, regardless of what the tech is capable of.

[KillingFrenzy]

I'd love to have a laptop with a VJ app loaded with a preview window that I see on my lcd, surrounded by all the menus and controls. This preview window would show me exactly what is outputting to the SVideo out/or RGB Monitor out on the laptop.

Pretty straightforward.

Again, I make my arguement for portability. Two laptops is till two laptops.

I want a single laptop going directly to a Projector.

For big shows, I don't care. But for small clubs, this would make things manageable enough to do a 3hour set for some friends on a tuesday night.

A software "scan converter" would help.

I've played with all variety of multimonitor software, but none of the damn things seem to allow me to:
a) Getting F^%$# overscan output out of my Dell 8100 Geforce 2go.
b) Allow me to choose a specific portion of my LCD Monitor Desktop and mirror it to a secondary output.

I'd be happy to squeeze either option out of my current laptop.

I'm actually holding out on buying a new laptop until I actually see one in action that has these options. Otherwise, the secondary outs are pretty well useless.

[MoRpH]

What ever *****...... after the shit day I have had dealing with idiots and unreliable ppl I'm really not in the mood to go over this.... your entitled to your opinion mate. I find low rez aestetically pleasing just like some ppl like a minimalist abstract as compared to a michealangelo.... whatever.

After the day I have had I'm even seriously considering giving the whole game away... :(

[KillingFrenzy]

Throwing hardware at a problem is a lame way to fix it.

Creating hardware/software that accomplishes a simple task to allow that hardware to work to full potential seems a better solution.

Space matters when you're in a small club. I'm sick of club owners giving me the "you need all that to make video?" look. They don't want some guy with a bunch of clutter in the middle of their club. Again, I do larger shows where I don't care about hauling in a gazillion pounds of gear. But, I don't like to invest 2 hours in setup for a 2 hour gig.

A laptop is a very compact solution to a variety of my needs. I can take it to a clients house and show them an editing project. I can show up at a bar and go over logos with someone for an upcoming show. So hauling in a rackmount kit for that, isn't much of an option.

For larger shows, I'd love to have a nice rackmount heavy duty machine, and a laptop as my second.

With the current speed of processors and graphics cards, firewire devices and various other improvements, laptops have become quite reasonable VJ devices. The fact that graphics cards are not supplying fairly standard, "obvious to any video user" functions through their own software, is a severe limitation that is frustrating.

I don't see where software is being limited by targetting toward laptops. I see software that just hasn't got its shit together for dual monitors (visualJockey.) So to claim that laptop users are somehow limiting the scene seems a rather offbase statement.

If anything, a big fat desktop system will benefit from the fine tuning that some poor sucker does to get it running on a laptop. Desktop users should end up with better optimized, smoother running software, instead of bloatware that is dependent on sloppy math and a fast system.

[KillingFrenzy]

I want your gear!

I was where you're at a couple of weeks ago.
I fucked up my t-bar on my mixer so it didn't work, wacked out my video card drivers so that I had to use a scan converter on my laptop, and had a club promoter complain about my stuff "needing more color". And to cap it all off, a girl wandered by and looked at my laptop and said "that's a really cool screensaver." As if I was just some dork that likes to sit in a sweaty crowded club listening to bad R&B, and lets his computer sit idle enough to have a screensaver pop up.

Wow, I almost depressed myself again.

Now, I'm compiling a bunch of stuff to take to Burning Man, and just generally preparing to a have a money-wasting, non-paying good ole' time. Point being, these things tend to cycle out.

Give yourself a break, and figure out something fun to play with in the meantime.
Smoke a blunt and watch Rova's Milkdrop comps =)

[BrainStove]

I don?t understand a 5h1t...
It?s not supposely to Infop have a solution about that???

Why nobody has said something then???

Are we getting stupids or something???

[murph]

***** - chill out dude. Take Killing's advice - "Smoke a blunt and watch Rova's Milkdrop comps =)"

I'm kidding, but I'm of the opinion that we should use the tools appropriate to the job we're doing. I'd really love to see a software scan converter, get rid of another piece of gear we're using, wouldn't it be the same for you? My laptop actually works better as a VJing machine than my desktop ever did, and it's lighter, and I don't have to dismantel my desk to move it. I think the stuff we're putting on the screens should give us respect, not how much shit we're lugging around. And the software we're using, visualjockey certainly doesn't look like any screen saver, looks like a professional application. When I tell promoters how much the gear I'm bringing to their show is worth, and what it rents for on the open market, they're impressed. Hauling around a bunch of crap just to look useful sounds more like self-justification to me.

[MoRpH]

Originally posted by *****
[B]Morph. Packin in? Heat to much in the arena? Im not suprised if you seriously think that LOW res is the answerB]

Nah I'm please to report I'm feeling much better today. ***** I'm doing fine in my area, and I never said low rez is the answer its just a valid stylistic choice thats all.

Sorry for being dissmissive your rez comments after talking to you on chat I can see where you coming from now, if more rez is what you need then I would encourage you to actively convey that :)

I like the look and feel of low rez chunky funky other things @ the momment are more @ the top of my requests as my software caters to MY rez needs fine, so sorry to be dismissive I know there are ppl out there that want higher rez.......

[KillingFrenzy]

In your last couple of posts, you've managed to ignore the points that I made which contradict your arguement, get all exasperated about others that weren't being debated, and generally go out of your way to be an insulting asshole.

I come from a production background and can talk quality levels and hardware on as high a level as you'd like to take it. You, can't even navigate a few websites to find VJ programs without us holding your hand through the process. I could go through point by point and dismantle your bullshit, but you've managed to go on such an all encompassing rant, that I'll just clarify some points here and let most of it slide.

Zoom software.
I want a proper video res output, on a second monitor.
If this means running my primary monitor at a high resolution with an inset video res screen and mirroring that, then so be it. In my opinion it shouldn't sap that much processor power, since most of these cards are built to provide this functionality, they just have shit for a software interface to access the hardware functions. This is just as applicable for many desktops as laptops and isn't just a laptop issue. Fill up your pc slots with seperate video cards, and fill up your desk with monitors, but if a single card can do the same thing, then you're just an asshole who bought a lot of redundant hardware.

Hardware solutions vs. Software.
I wasn't making a general statement about hardware vs. software. In this particular case, your suggestion of buying an extra computer to just use as an interface for another because you can't get a secondary out, is ridiculous. Perhaps I should have said "you're an idiot for thinking a hardware solution is the answer for this software problem."

Penis Compensation Issues
If having a lot of gear makes you feel more like a man, then perhaps taking the next step to just joining a cock rock band and playing a multinecked guitar is for you. For me, I don't need to be center stage. The projected image and presentation are important to me, not hogging up tablespace to look like a gearhead. Setting up fast and tearing down quickly are more likely to impress the club then having them tap their toes as you get your vehicle and then cart loads of gear out.
As far as your whole titsfest. You've probably just chased off the few female VJ's that weren't already scared off by the "boys club" mentality of video production in general. Here's to keeping it an all male scene through juvenile behaviour!

Bored
If you're bored hearing about a program that allows you to zoom in on a portion of the screen, then why are you on a thread titled "software scan convertor". Fuck off, and let people talk about the subject.

Laptop vs. everything else.
A laptop is no more an all-in-one solution to being a VJ then a desktop is. If a desktop is a toolchest, then a laptop is a Swiss Army Knife. When it comes down to it, I use my Swiss Army Knife all the time, because I keep it on me. Same goes for my laptop. Doesn't mean I don't have a toolchest, but to deny the usefullness of a truly portable computer is very closeminded.
I've never said that using a single laptop is how everyone should do shows. What I'm saying is that for certain types of shows, that's what I'd like to do. I'll bring in as much gear as a promoter is willing to pay for. Some promoters want to get by with as little as possible (go figure).

My suggestion is to read the posts instead of just responding to them, *****.

[LEVLHED]

PULEEESE!!!
enuff already...*****, I think we get your point now...obviously you aren't going to change their opinions and they aren't going to change yours...these rants of yours are getting OLD...if you spent as much time learning a soft as you do writing (and editing) these rediculous off-topic posts, maybe you'd have an answer to your problem now...

[murph]

*****, I don't think anyone's stupid enough to think that a single laptop would replace a proper rig. In our standard show rig we use two laptops, a DVD/SVCD player, two VCRs, a couple cameras, a professional panasonic 5" monitor, and most importantly, a video mixer, sometimes two. We also own two projectors and a shitload of cables/adapters/scan converters/etc, over $20k worth in all. And I repeat: anything your desktop machine can do, my inspiron 8200 can do just as well. I'm not using it as a mixer, though a friend of mine in madison, one of the best VJs in the midwest, is using his laptop, running resolume, with two video inputs feeding a VCR and a camera, and then straight out to the projector. Looks great.

I have a question for you, if your shit is so hi-res, and above laptop standards, what the hell do you play it on? Do you make DVDs and mix them? Is that what you call VJing? It might look cleaner, but are you doing anything interesting? Ooh, you can switch back and forth to the beat! yay! With resolume I can trigger the right clips at the right moment, to the beat, with scratching and some simple effects. I can do this at 640x480 if I really want, essentially broadcast res. You know that. I can pass that into another computer that will do a variety of effects, using a few different pieces of software. The kind of stuff no hardware is made to do. BUT, at the same time, I'll be passing that signal in a feedback loop to my mixer, running a luma key. Something no computer can do well yet.

No shit DVD players and good VCRs and good distro amps aren't going anywhere, any show worth $5 would have that stuff, but when you want to fuck around and do something simple and easy at a friend's show for free, a laptop and a projector is a great solution. It's not going to be the same as the show with the proper rig, but DUH, that's the point. Why would you give someone the same show that requires real work if they're not going to be paying the same?

What in god's name are you doing with all the stuff you're talking about? You keep alluding to all this "professional" gear you're using, but you won't say anything about what any of this is or what it does. What do you make your content with, if not a computer? Lemme guess, you're shooting a bunch of stuff on film and then editing it with your linear editing machine, and dumping it to beta, so when you're "VJing" you're hitting play and going for a beer, while the punters watch some boring movie of your friend on his skateboard or something?

If your content is so lame that someone would mistake it for a screensaver if you didn't have all that gear, maybe you should concentrate more on getting better content than whining about other VJs. Like I said, it doesn't matter what your rig looks like if you put shit on the screen, but the flip is true, if you can do a professional-looking show from a laptop, more power to you.

(and yes, I was purposefully taking the asshole approach that you've taken in your posts. This is a respectful forum, try to understand that a lot of the people on here are professionals, with valid opinions, that are based on an experience level which is unknown to you, and therefore could be much greater than your own. You don't know, so have a little respect.)

[elbows]

I was gonna avoid this debate, but as I have to say something for clarities sake anyway, I may as well carry on and post some thoughts...

murph and Morph are 2 different people, just thought Id clarify that as you seem to be calling murph Morph above.

I think this argument is more about style of posting than the actual points. Few would argue that 20k of kit can do some amazing things and yes with cash and time and an innovative mind you will push the boundaries. Heck Im sitting here with only about 2k of kit and 1 year of practice and Im personally nowhere near happy enough to go out there and perform yet, but thats me. My imagination and standards have always been far ahead of what I can actually do, end result me eternally waiting for the right moment. When have I evolved enough to be a worthy VJ?

You talk of people not spending that cash as if its because they are shortsighted or something, when really its gonna be hard economics and the style of how they play shows that determines what kit suits.

Anyway to me all of us have slightly different ideas about what a VJ evenis, we all do it slightly differently and debates about resolution and stuff just remind me of every other battle of the ideologies, good debate helps us to learn and maybe even appreciate different standpoints etc, but we seldom actually change our opinions.

Whats wrong with people who dont feel the need to push the envelope in new ways to further the VJ cause? When new musical instruments were invented, was it considered wrong for some to stick to playing the old ones, and for others to combine the old with the new?

Oh well anyway I like more complex stuff and your setup sounds interesting, but I dont dig the vibes so much as the sound of the kit. We could not reasonably have asked you most of those questions unless you had told us what your setup consisted of and the depths of your knowledge in advance.

Has VJ'ing evolved to the point where it is developing a class system? If so then poo to progress.

Hardware always seems 1 year away from being powerful enough to me. Certainly its getting there, but for what Im doing the memory bandwidth is now proving to be a bottleneck. New mainboard chipsets cant come out fast enough to satisfy me, currently waiting to see if nforce2 dual channel ddr is any good, if not then the less budget friendly Intel options loom for me.

[murph]

*****, first, I'm Murph, not Morph, and second, it's not that I don't think you have good points, it's just that you're coming off as an asshole to make them, and you don't have to.

You finally answered my question, as to what you're making your content out of... lightwave & after effects. Thank you.

The thing is, you use a lot of your gear to be essentially a video production specialist, working corporate and MTV type stuff. That's different than VJing, and it sounds like you're saying we should all be working for A/V companies setting up screens at churches and convention centers, doing editing for commercials and corporate videos. That's called a day job. That's not what I'm interested in at all, sorry, and I don't think that stuff is necassary to be a good VJ.

This isn't my job, I'll shoot myself the day my artistic expression is something I have to do to put food on the table. Besides, I make way more money in the computer industry. =]

[KillingFrenzy]

I'm off to Burning Man.

I'll be taking.
1 LAPTOP.
1 Live Input Device
1 Midi Controller
1 DV Camera
1 Small Svideo Switcher
1 Projector
1 Box of edited and condensed DV Tapes.

My pal is taking.
1 LAPTOP.
1 Live Input Device
1 Midi Controller
1 DV Camera
1 Projector
1 Box of edited and condensed DV Tapes.

He has a Mac and a program that handles secondary output better then my PC lappy, so he can get by without the switcher.
I'd be able to eliminate the switcher with better software control of a secondary output.

Both of us can walk freely for miles with our gear.

I'll be able to provide a show with pre-compiled DV footage, clips from my laptop, freshly shot footage of the event, live input of people at the event, and sound reactive effects I've created.

I'm going to have a lot of fun, and hope to run into a few of the people on the forums here.

I'll be producing a limited version of what I could do at a comfortable party with some setup time, my mixer, Tape decks, placed cameras, a line feed from the DJ, etc. It won't look the same as the footage I shoot at the event and then edit in Premiere and AfterEffects to create a finished short of my adventures.

All this is to say I'm taking my Swiss Army Knife camping, instead of lugging my toolbox. It allows me to go farther off the beaten path.

Catch you all in a few weeks when I get back.

[BrainStove]

I?m starting to figure it out where?s the *****?s fear smell comes from...

I think *****?s main worry is watching himself (after his huge investment) getting out, stuck and obsolete even with his $20k or $100K (including his Van/Truck), full of heavy and big hardware "A/V" gear in this whole new VJ world.
Yeah, congratulations anyway ***** to be able to buy all of your well earned toys, you deserve all of them as result of your long/hard work and sharp eye choosing them for the "A/V work"<--- insist> A/V work not VJing work you has been doing until now.

I never thought I would have to rub this picture on everybody faces... but here are the facts:

1.- As far as all of us will keep working on the downgrade NTSC/PAL/SECAM TV video interlaced systems resolutions, (doesn?t matter you use "composite RCA/BNC cables/connectors", S-Video, Component, SCART, D2, etc, etc, etc), it still will be TV standards the culprit of low quality, poor brightness/sharpness/contrast, etc. imagery to be projected on a big screen with a Data projector.

2.- Unfortunately there aren?t any RGB SVGA/XVGA resolution hardware only Videomixer out there yet, but it is just there where the software Videomixers/Videosynths as Resolume and others come helping to keep it on the digital domain running on desktops PCs or Powerful laptops, delivering the stronger, brighter, richer RGB SVGA Noninterlaced Higher Resolution imagery to project on big screens and make good/better use of what the DATA PROJECTORS (not VideoProjectors) were manufactured for.
So why to settle down with barely 640x480 or at best 720x488 (on DV/DVD res.) 525 TVlines, 30fps, 60 fields interlaced NTSC video or slighty up specs for PAL, when we can project a 1600x1200, 1280x1024 or at least 1024x768 kick ass hallucination (even from Winamp plugins), just attaching the VGA output from our desktop/laptop straight to the VGA projector input?

3.- Of course, while you are working with AVIs, QTs, MPEGs, Etc, movie video clips/loops/scratchs style of VJing, you still will have to deal with TV standars, conversions, codecs issues anyway, but it doesn?t mean you must to project those through the Composite/S-video outs from your computer, just connect the VGA output from your videocard at 1024x768 on the projector VGA input and then start using your favourite VJ software deskconsole FXtools application to do the magic mixing all the footage you need including real time Live video feed from any videocapture card or USB gadget you have attached too.
Are you gonna miss the MX50, MXPro, Panasonic, Videonics, Whatever hardware videomixer then?... I don?t think so.

4.- That was only for videoclips work, but are you aware of the growing new breed of 3D based sound reacting VJtools, Virtual Reality Interactive proggys for VJs and why not some amazing Winamp plugins, able to supply CG visuals just made for VJ work which are not constrained or limited to TV standards having us the chance to get rid of them and be able to put footage on big screens/projectors at maximum RGB XVGA resolution?

5.- Oh yeah!, I want also all the horse power of a top of the line Silicon Graphics, Cry or Big Blue Chess mainframe inside of a Laptop or PalmPilot size computer to crunch all the math involved in process Realtime 3D, Broadcast Res. video clips, Etc. just to get HDTV VJing on the Big Screen... The time will say.

6.- Talking of HDTV... Hehehe, I?m afraid if all of us had been VJing based on all the *****?s full truck of Broadcast hardware only A/V stuff to get our VJ work done, pretty soon some HDTV *****2 guy out there could come here to throw all of his HDTV shit on us too, trying to impose his "You are not VJing if you don?t go to HDTV" remark. Don?t you think?

7.- Summary: Yeah, go to your SoftwareScan expectations while the VJ software coders community are unable to surpass their products limitations, get computers; Laptops or desktops with REAL DUALHEAD capabilities, Look/Test and keep your eyes wide open on the new 3D/Interactive generation of VJ software I mentioned on point 4 and of course, if I have to choose I would buy 3 good top of the line real DH Laptops rather the new digital Panasonic AG-MX70 for the same money if VJing is what I have in mind.
I already said, you don?t need downscale your output to TV video standards to VJing, you even wont need to invest on Hardware ScanConverters, Videomixers and stuff like that if you go to the higher RGB XVGA video specs all computers/projectors nowadays can handle, maybe you?ll only need a good and cheap VGA multiplier (I have one with 8 simultaneous VGA outs), maybe some VGA switcher (available now but a little expensive), or just a forthcoming RGB/XVGA videomixer I can envision round to the corner.

So can we now get back to the original topic?

As I said in my previous post... Why nobody has said Infopocalypse is working on this SoftwareScan solution?
Why everybody is falling again in the same *****?s trap?, Yeah *****, better to take the subtle Levlhed advice and you?ll be joining instantly to this whole new VJ scenery.

[syzygy]

***** - I agree with _some_ of what you say (although I don't like the way you say it).

All those capitalisations and swearwords don't really help you make your points. The sexism really put me off too.

There are things that you can't currently do with just a laptop. There are also things that you really need a computer to do.

Some VJs use just hardware stuff (tapes and mixers)
Some VJs use just computers
Some VJs use both (that's where I fall)

There's nothing wrong with everyone doing their own thing.

We can all learn from each other, providing we don't get all irrate and offensive at the slightest sniff of someone having a different view.

Nightclub visuals are diversifying as projection technology gets cheaper - smaller venues have projection available and want visuals. This means that there are advantages to smaller, more portable, setups. I've met a couple of VJs who do multiple gigs in a night - that would be tough with a full rig...

I've seen amazing visuals on big mixer rigs. I've also seen amazing visuals from a single laptop. At the end of the day, my view is that creativity and ideas are much more important that the gear. There is space for everyone and we can benefit from swapping ideas in a positive way.

SyZyGy

[syzygy]

Jorgi - where are you based?

Here in the UK, fully loops based visuals are considered fully on a par with stuff based on live cameras etc - they all have their place.

In fact, camerashots + 3D + psychedlia seems to considered a little bit old-hat by some really big artists artists here, as they are hiring visuals people who do interesting things with loops.

Examples:

Orbital
The Chemical Brothers
Warp Records artists
Ninja Tune artists (coldcut etc)
Drum and Bass artists (Bukem, Hype, Roni Size)


SyZyGy

[elbows]

Well if all the high end pro VJ's just lurk and dont post then they have nobody to blame but themselves if the posts here dont match with the world of VJing as they know it!

I mean, if newbies offend you then you'll never have a good time on an open internet community site due to the nature of the thing. There you are with a wealth of experience knowledge and kit, and Im sure that many would greatfully benefit from learning more about it. But for those who dont/will never have big budget, leave them alone to do what they can on their level.

Ive witnissed this exact same thing with the video editing scene. Some pro's seemed to get mighty annoyed that cheap low end technology allowed all these newbies to do similar work, it seemed to hurt their ego somehow and there was much denial that it was the same and much wailing and gnashing of teeth on forums.

You think these low-tech VJ's will be wiped out by the big boys? I see quite the opposite happening, as cheaper kit becomes more powerful. You are upset that DJing lost its elitist way and became accessable to the masses? Why?

For what its worth Ive not seen the quality of any forums go downhill, and there are many regulars here who have been active for years and get by quite nicely without a whole trucks worth of equipment. Newbies mostly seem keen to expand their setups as much as is practical.

Dont see why the 2 differing styles should have anything to fear from eachother, nor that anyone should be forced to lurk in silence. If you want to talk about a subject, start a new thread on it, if some of the answers arent what you want then just ignore them. What is the problem, what cant you do on this forum right now because of the presence of laptop style VJs?

[MoRpH]

Originally posted by syzygy
Jorgi - where are you based?

Here in the UK, fully loops based visuals are considered fully on a par with stuff based on live cameras etc - they all have their place.

In fact, camerashots + 3D + psychedlia seems to considered a little bit old-hat by some really big artists artists here, as they are hiring visuals people who do interesting things with loops.

Examples:

Orbital
The Chemical Brothers
Warp Records artists
Ninja Tune artists (coldcut etc)
Drum and Bass artists (Bukem, Hype, Roni Size)


SyZyGy

Hmmm I would have to agree with that, personally I like to use a mix of the 2 and wouldn't really consider doing the mixing of the 2 inside the laptop (I think thats better handled by a hardware mixer)........ but the constant deck/DJ/crowd shots and 3d animated DJ titles with a few MX50 FX of these so called "pro-video" guys is getting pretty dull.

BTW *****.... get it right mate, I'm MoRpH, the other guy is Murph....

As for more commando VJs not having the gear to do the big shows, yeah thats right (most of the time) but thats why its good for guys with loads of kit to team with guys that have great content and skills on the mix, to create the best SHOW FOR THE PUNTERS as that is what its really all about........ if its a big show what have you got to loose (besides a small cut of cash, if your the guy with all the kit) by bringing in some commando guys to work sets??? (BTW and taping their sets from some hidden VCR so you don't have to hire them again is FLATOUT WRONG!!!) This sort of things happens @ quite a few of the large australian dance events and I think it give the promoters and punters the best bang and variety for their buck

As for you being a VJ and others just providing padding....... hmmmm that depends on your interperetation of the VJ term, I would say in its basic form it is anyone mixing video live to music, nothing to do with having the latest pro-kit, doing TV edits for later distribution, seting up video infrastructure @ big events...... sure all those things can be cool (if thats what your into) but I don't think they are needed to call ones self a VJ (which yes is becoming a VERY broad term)...... from the sound of it your more of a video total solution person for large events, meaning the actual act of VJing is only one small component of what you do.

As for loop based VJs being some how inferior to guys that mix a bunch of cams and some pre-rendered CG/DJ titles, thats a crock! I like to use both as I think thats the way forward but I would prefer to see some nice original/orignally mixed loop based content, than boring old DJ head shots and endless deck cams.

[burstingfist]

Originally posted by MoRpH

...
As for loop based VJs being some how inferior to guys that mix a bunch of cams and some pre-rendered CG/DJ titles, thats a crock!
...


You left out realtime,interactive CG in your comparison. I like realtime CG and vid clips. I try to stay away from the prerendered 3D. Interactive is the way...

[MoRpH]

Bursting, I left that out cause its not in the stereotype I was trying to get across.

[murph]

heh, we haven't had to use a camera in ages. If you ask me, a camera feed is a crutch, used when you have not enough interesting material to put on the screen. That's how we use it at least, and we try to run it through some interesting sound-responsive effects if we do. MX50, winamp, VJo. LEVLHED had one going through an Amiga last weekend, just feeding the TVs and a seperate feed on the projectors, that was rad.

If the promoter did his job right, the audience should be able to see the DJ. At 3,000+ shows it makes sense, so the people way back can see what's going on, but I personally like to see that on a seperate screen from the visuals, if it's that big a party they can usually afford it. A big screen with just a camera on it feels more like a baseball game to me than a rave.

I think that's what seperates a VJ from an A/V technician, what they put on the screen. At a big enough show they should be seperate people IMHO.

[fisheye]

a vinegen scanconverter can zoom in an part of your screen

fisheye