The Olympics

[deepvisual]

You can guarantee that most of us will get some kind of work off the back of the Olympics (http://www.shots.net/news_detail.asp?id=3933) this year.

Boycott, sabotage, apathy or protest?

whatever you do or don't do, you'll probably have to decide soon.

Its down to the individual at the end of the day.
Myself I have no problem taking truth to power as I know they won't hesitate for a second when it comes to making me stand in line.

besides, in the scheme of things, the ex commies that run china are an easy target as they are just plain bad.


I'd suggest putting an image of this guy on the screen.
a picture says a thousand words:http://www.smh.com.au/ffximage/2007/06/12/lama13607_wideweb__470x344,0.jpg

if you want to be less in your face, try this one.http://www.guchusum.org/Portals/0/news/penchen.jpg

the worlds youngest political prisoner. (http://www.guchusum.org/AboutUs/PoliticalPrisonersProfiles/11thPanchenLamaGendunChoekyiNyima/tabid/124/Default.aspx)

[SteveG]

Or.....you can remain non political and get paid :D Want to do politics...become a politician ;)

[asterix]

I say let the olympics do its job, and bring nations closer together. China will be forced to make some pretty interesting transformations in order to pull off an olympics. That will make more difference than political critiques.

[sleepytom]

Or.....you can remain non political and get paid some people actually have some courage in their convictions though! personally i won't be working for the Chinese any time soon - i'd much rather be poor than become rich off the back of a totalitarian regime

"i'm only doing my job" "i'm only following orders" "i need the money so i'll not think about where it has come from" are the weakest, most cowardly excuses a person can use.

The reason the world is a fucked up shitty place is because of the people who make these excuses. You do not need to be one of them. There is a choice and you can say NO.

Individuals really can make a difference if they are brave enough.

http://ramblingsofpassion.files.wordpress.com/2007/06/051201_tiananmen-square_ex.jpg

[fata alex]

i totally, absolutely completely agree tom, but where do you draw the line?
how many products do you use that were made in china? or in any other country under exploitative conditions?

[deepvisual]

well, you certainly wont change the world by doing nothing.

I'm not planning to cause trouble, but if I get the chance, I'd be more than happy to humiliate a fascist.

[bryandod]

i'm only doing my job" "i'm only following orders" "i need the money so i'll not think about where it has come from" are the weakest, most cowardly excuses a person can use.

The reason the world is a fucked up shitty place is because of the people who make these excuses. You do not need to be one of them. There is a choice and you can say NO.

hear hear.

[SteveG]

My point really Tom, just dont perform. If you think sticking up a couple of quick pictures will change a regime or the world then carry on. I'm normally booked and paid to VJ and to try and put entertaining graphics on screen, not a political message. When I'm paid to do so then that'll be fine. I would choose not to perform in quite a few countries at this present time. Again I would say politics are for politicians not VJ's. Going off on another direction could this be why certain areas avoid booking VJ's...because they end up doing their own thing on screen? Alex has made the point above....where do you draw the line. Where's Gary at the mo....now there's a country which is a good advertisement for human rights. Do what you get booked and paid to do or dont do it. Perhaps the more people like ourselves who go and perform taking our way of life and attitudes, politics etc etc there may just actually help more than any other sort of action. As my granny would say, there's more than one way to skin a cat;)

[sleepytom]

where you draw the line is a personal choice isn't it?

the point that gary is making is about Tibet and the Buddhists, supporting the Chinese Olympics does nothing to help these people.

I would like nothing better than to see a major incident involving the opening ceremony + pictures of the Lama on the official screen - if any VJ gets the chance to make it happen then go for it!

Somethings are more important than being "professional" and towing the line. It's not to say you won't get in trouble for it but again that should not concern you if your actually serious about the issues.

You'll get a job on the Byork tour afterwards anyway so i wouldn't worry about "never working again" or any of that crap.

[deepvisual]

You'll get a job on the Byork tour afterwards anyway so i wouldn't worry about "never working again" or any of that crap.

there is a story about a stand up comic walking onstage naked during a max bygraves performance.

Bygraves turned to him and said, you'll never work in this business again.

and the comic?
Lily Allen's dad, Keith.

[SteveG]

Please dont think I was having a dig at you Gary...just showing an example as highlighted by Alex in "where do we draw the line" We could probably find excuses to be subversive or choose not to perform in almost every country of the world at the momment....including our own.

[hookturn]

Anyone (not the vj) know what Addictive think about this?

Its all well and good saying this that and the other but how many of us are really true to ourselves in what we do?

You could argue the fact that buying any American made products are putting cash back into the American economy is putting cash back in to the war efforts in Iraq.


Just a thought.


I think Addictive are just victims of their success.

Do they read the boards here?

If so are they willing to pot their case forward?

[deepvisual]

Its up to the individual.

Myself, I'm very prejudiced.
I think that when soldiers shoot buddhist monks, its time to make a fuss.

[SteveG]

Throughout history Gary the religious leaders have been targeted and taken the brunt like this. Just too much of a threat I suppose, you could see it as an indication that things may change for the better very soon, perhaps a last ditch effort to hold on to what they have at the moment.

[vdmoKstaTi]

These Olympics is a can of Worms...

[vjpixylight]

But I will be in Denver for the democratic convention..
What should I put up on a screen there?
Fook China? Fook Iraq? Fook Obama? Fook Hillary?

[Meierhans]

i'd much rather be poor than become rich off the back of a totalitarian regime

I think that when soldiers shoot buddhist monks, its time to make a fuss.

If you manage to get Dalai on the main screen you will for shure be very famous afterwards and have to respect of many, many people around the globe. After you made it out of prison and your eyes still work. I´ve seen a couple of documentations about China on TV recently, and I have to say what happens there is really, really ugly shit. They do not only put people an prison for saying the wrong things, they also hit and torture them, even kill them. They silence international journalists with brute force. They pollute nature in a never before seen way. They brainwash and control media I a way Goebbels would have been proud of. In short: They don`t give a fuck about human rights or environment. Millions of people suffer from this, get ill, live in poverty.

If you know a little about buddhism you also know that it takes alot to get these monks agressive. (I know there have been wars between different schools in the past.. however, nobody is perfect..)

There are things in world for me that are a no go: I would never do visuals for nazis. And I don`t look on the flag above them, I look on the things they do.
As well I would never do it for a weapons factory or Monsanto style assholes. Not for 10 millions.

Everybody has to draw its line, but please do not support China in creating a clean - and false - image of their country. You are also responsible for those things you don´t do if you know it better. I know its a hard comparision.. but those guys in the KZ later also argued they where only doing their job. "I´m not guilty, I just followed the orders!". And guess what: They got sued and found guilty. Killing people ain`t the same as doing visuals.. but what about those guys who where cutting the propaganda films for Hitler? "Hey, it was only celluloid!" Wanna be the next Leni Riefenstahl?

Its not about been political, its about taking money from murderes and help them cleaning their slate. Excuse my harsh words, but this had to be said.

Boycott China!

Word!

[vdmoKstaTi]

But I will be in Denver for the democratic convention..
What should I put up on a screen there?
Fook China? Fook Iraq? Fook Obama? Fook Hillary?

United States isn't a Country — It's a Corporation!
http://www.serendipity.li/jsmill/us_corporation.htm

Some random quotes you might want to consider.

If you call yourself UNITED STATES citizen, you an idiot!
Remember, you don't have any rights!
Hillary is going to win anyway, lets go home to drink beer and watch Gladiators.
You's all dumber then I thought.
:not worth neo cons
Police State 'R' Us
Stolen Elections pt 3.. Free popcorn with every ticket purchased
Your Next Vote Will Kill Millions
Drink Fluoride, its good for you!
Torture Rox!
Honey, could you put FOX back on?

[Hambone]

I wonder how many of you activists use (or hire out) Chinese gear...

[Meierhans]

Lets forget for a moment about those little differences. We could discuss this in general, what things are avoidable, which are not. I´m not a saint, not at all. But this goes far beyond hiring gear or doing promotions for whiskey. This is about killing people with sticks and guns. For the moment I would just like to post those 2 pictures. They say more than 1000 words:


http://i224.photobucket.com/albums/dd175/FreeTibetCampaignUK/14032008363.jpg
http://i224.photobucket.com/albums/dd175/FreeTibetCampaignUK/14032008366.jpg

[Hambone]

Although not an activist, I don't condone the violation of human rights.

If I were actively promoting boycotting China, or undermining the Olympics, I wouldn't pick and choose the facets of the cause that benefit me, such as helping to support the Chinese economy by buying their products while at the same time jumping on the anti-China bandwagon.

[Meierhans]

I try to avoid it since I know whats really goin on there. But you paint a little bit too black and white for my taste here. Its not "the Chinese" who are evil, its those 1% that have the power in their hands. As always. Economy itself is nothing bad, we all need it to survive, as well as the people in China do.

What if I buy a chinese video amp to get my "free tibet" clips onto multiscreen? I guess the impact makes up for that 10 $? What if you do the job for the big screen on olympia and glorify the whole thing, and spend all the money to FreeTibet.org afterwards? Does this make up?? How do I get my stuff to a "against Global warming" gig? By train? There is no "right way", I´m a part of the machine. Just a better and a worse. Sadly.

:sigh:

At least we are talking about it, thats most important.
What I ment before is: Helping China to provide a clean colorful image of their country while at the same they shoot peaceful monks in Tibet is definitly wrong doing. Despite of all the other details that lead us in a very complex field... maybe we can agree on this one? We could simply agree: We won`t help China to look good with our hands.

Peace! !poke!

[Hambone]

Good points!

I do tend to see things in black and white... not good! There are many gray areas.

[Rovastar]

At least we are talking about it, thats most important.
What I ment before is: Helping China to provide a clean colorful image of their country while at the same they shoot peaceful monks in Tibet is definitly wrong doing. Despite of all the other details that lead us in a very complex field... maybe we can agree on this one? We could simply agree: We won`t help China to look good with our hands.

Peace!

So you just have a problem with the government and making that look good not, in general, making visuals for other projects in China?

So you would have no objection to a VJ team doing visuals for adidasChina if it wasn't for the Olympics?

Is this even going to be in the actual Olympic Games or just say a media campaign by adidas to coincide with the Olympics?

Would you refuse an offer of work for any Chinese company or the Chineese branch of say international ad agency?

What about any company that has an office in China? What if they do work anything involved with the government?

Would you work for Google, Microsoft, etc?

Grey areas……..and his works for other countries just replace China for Sudan, Saudi Arabia, America, UK, Israel, India, Iraq, Nazi Germany, etc

I have no answers and don’t know where to draw the line and the more you look at it the more complex it can be.

Personally I don’t think Addictive have done anything wrong and I am unsure if people here are implying that.

[sleepytom]

I would of turned down the job that addictive have taken - I won't support the Chinese Olympics in any way at all.

I wouldn't work for the Chinese branch of an ad agency either, nor for any other chinese company or organization (unless they were extremely unusual - i would work for amnesty international if they had a chinese branch for example!)

interesting that you bring up google - the way that they have allowed the Chinese government to censor their search engine is very wrong - do no evil my arse.

[vdmoKstaTi]

Although not an activist, I don't condone the violation of human rights.


What Human rights? If you can show me legal documentation of such thing, please show me. I been looking everywhere and I'm having difficulty finding it, quite the opposite. There aren't any. Pay attention to Article 29 clause 3 in UN human rights declaration - "These rights and freedoms may in no case be exercised contrary to the purposes and principles of the United Nations." This a legal jargon for - you haven't got any if UN says so! Mind you UN is just a bunch of world class criminals anyways, you wouldn't expect otherwise. When it comes to individual countries, for most part you have them operating under commercial law and treated as a corporations.

[sleepytom]

define rights?

you might not have any legally enshrined rights but that is not to say that you cannot believe humans have rights.

[SteveG]

What Human rights? If you can show me legal documentation of such thing, please show me.

Citizens of the UK have certain fundamental human rights which government and public authorities are legally obliged to respect. These became law as part of the Human Rights Act 1998.


Human Rights Act
The Human Rights Act 1998 gives legal effect in the UK to the fundamental rights and freedoms contained in the European Convention on Human Rights (ECHR). These rights not only affect matters of life and death like freedom from torture and killing but also affect your rights in everyday life: what you can say and do, your beliefs, your right to a fair trial and many other similar basic entitlements.

The rights are not absolute – governments have the power to limit or control them in times of severe need or emergency. You also have the responsibility to respect the rights of other people – and not exercise yours in a way which is likely to stop them from being able to exercise theirs.
Your human rights are:

1.The right to life
2.Freedom from torture and degraded treatment
3.Freedom from slavery and forced labour
4.The right to liberty
5.The right to a fair trial
6.The right not to be punished for something that wasn't a crime when you did it
7.The right to respect for private and family life
8.Freedom of thought, conscience and religion
9.Freedom of expression
10.Freedom of assembly and association
11.The right to marry or form a civil partnership and start a family
12.The right not to be discriminated against in respect of these rights and freedoms
13.The right to own property
14.The right to an education
15.The right to participate in free elections
If any of these rights and freedoms are abused you have a right to an effective solution in law, even if the abuse was by someone in authority, for example, a policeman.

[john01]

A while ago the guy that manages my little portfolio asked me if I would consider changing it from the eurocentric developed markets to emerging markets. I had a think and opted for starting up a little India section, but turned him down on China.

A couple of reasons, one purely selfish, everyone thinks the Chinese economy is unstoppable now, but some of us think the period after the olympics will show if it really is.

Another was their poor record on human rights. The people in Tibet have a spokesperson, the Chinese themselves need one. Unpaid wages, forced evictions, poisoned rivers, summary execution, (one bullet in the back of the head from point blank range), corrupt officials, the growing gap between the urban rich and the rural poor, the rural poor who go to the city in search of work and become bonded labour.

There's not a lot you can do, we all have to make a living, but you can at least make the gesture.

And don't forget the MongoliansTenger.

[SteveG]

I think like the Iron Curtain one of the main contributing factors which will eventually put an end to Chinas policies is world trade and business. This is why I said earlier in the thread perhaps the best thing we can do is to actually travel and perform showing the country and it's people our way of life rather than puting up obstacles and barriers.

Perhaps I should have mentioned $ and greed here too....they'll all want a bigger piece of pie. Then they'll have the same problems we have :rolleyes:

[Hambone]

Tom - you are apparently hardcore anti-Chinese.

I'm curious... do you use or sell/hire Chinese-manufactured gear?

[deepvisual]

maybe you haven't been to china steve.

They do business, but they do it their way.
Taking the 'good' bits and leaving the bits they don't like.
so you get profit without responsibility, resulting in enormous growth along with corruption, pollution, persecution of unions etc.

it very unlikely they can keep this up indefinitely, but they don't care.
as they see it, they can pick and chose the benefits of capitalism and have no time for quaint western ideas like human rights.

this post from the guardian puts things into perspective.

I am gratified to see the attention the Guardian is providing regarding the Tibetan protests; as a result, the Chinese regime has blocked its online edition. That's how the Chinese do things- why argue with facts when you can censor, block, imprison and kill to keep people ignorant? I teach history here at an international school in Beijing and am currently examining the rule of the Nazi regime. What is currently occurring in this country provides a convenient historical context. Let's consider the book burning, censorship and state control of the media to prevent dialogue, discussion and the regime in Nazi Germany alongside China's censorship of the Internet and all forms of media. Let's say the current occupation of Tibet is analogous to the anschluss the Germans carried out in 1938 with both using the same justification: an occupying force "peacefully liberating" a neighbour from, er, itself. And let's suggest that China's threats of war over Taiwan is similar to Hitler's threats at Munich, replacing ethnic Germans who were never a part of Germany with ethnic Chinese who had been ruled by Beijing for a mere four years the previous century. To broaden the discussion to control of the domestic population, let's replace the names of Nazi labour camps such as Dachau and Buchenwald with any of the 1100 known forced-labour gulags here in China. And while we do so, let's keep in mind that Berlin had been awarded the Olympic Games before Hitler had taken power, while the Chinese regime has had six decades to kill, directly or otherwise, well over fifty million of its own people. There was no CNN in 1939 to show the world an image of a man standing in front of a panzer in Prague as there was fifty years later. Is it any wonder why so many were incredulous when a director of Spielberg's stature, who has worked hard to remind the world of the evils of one regime, could seemingly see no issues acting the Riefenstahl to promote another? If we can make even the barest comparison of a state in today's world with the most loathsome in history, my question is this: What is the moral we are expected to get across to students when the appeasement of the fascist powers throughout the 1930s is once again cynically being repeated, not in the hopes of collective security, but simply for the almighty dollar?

[deepvisual]

I'm curious... do you use or sell/hire Chinese-manufactured gear?

are you suggesting people turn their backs on 1.4 billion others just because they were born in a country with a despicable regime?

there is a world of difference between the Bush cartel and the USA, just as there is between the Communist Party and China.

[SteveG]

No, never been to China, and wouldn't go by the way. I'm well aware of all that has gone on past and present but as you point out it will not go on indefinately. I put great value on life my own included and would not visit any country where I thought my life would be endangered either now...been there done that as they say. Having such strong fealings on it then, how, when, do you think this regime might end? and what might bring this about?

[vdmoKstaTi]

9. Freedom Of Expression

YouTube - FREE SPEECH ARREST - We Are Change UK

Laws do change, and you are not aware of them it renders you as ignorant I believe.
http://www.repeal-socpa.info/

[Hambone]

are you suggesting people turn their backs on 1.4 billion others just because they were born in a country with a despicable regime?

there is a world of difference between the Bush cartel and the USA, just as there is between the Communist Party and China.

Aren't many of those same 1.4 billion due to benefit from the Olympics?

[deepvisual]

of course not.

Its an ego boost for the villains in power.. nothing more.
it has very little to do with sport.
wait and see how much us brits benefit in 2012.
probably the same as we did from the millenium dome.

[sleepytom]

Tom - you are apparently hardcore anti-Chinese.

I'm curious... do you use or sell/hire Chinese-manufactured gear?
Firstly I'm not anti chinese, I'm pro tibet and pro human rights within china itself.

I try not to buy new chinese manufactured stuff -
My laptop was made in ireland (one of the reasons i choose dell)
My projectors are Japanese
I do own some chinese made stuff (midi controllers) but the vast majority of gear that i've spent money on is made in other places.

so yes these days i do try to check where things are made before buying them - i try and buy local (err from the EU) where possible.

i would buy fairtrade products from China but there aren't any! They are just starting to have some FSC certified wood / timber products originating from managed forests in china - i would buy these (if i needed some timber and couldn't get something from closer to home!)

I'm not saying that i'm in anyway perfect - but i do actually try.


is that surprising?

[SteveG]

9. Freedom Of Expression

YouTube - FREE SPEECH ARREST - We Are Change UK (http://youtube.com/watch?v=tLhFw3CuJ78)

Laws do change, and you are not aware of them it renders you as ignorant I believe.
http://www.repeal-socpa.info/

Show me a documentry where individuals show the paperwork for their refused demonstrations. If people learn the Law (UK) then they will be well aware that all protests must be approved and has been the case for many years. This I add is also for public safety, policing etc etc etc. This I'm afraid to say is a reporters cheap trick at a piece of anti Govt propaganda. Unfortunately the more riots and trouble that take place at approved demonstrations the more they will be refused.

I'll just add if the smart reporter knew his Human Rights as in UK Law were being broken why did he not then charge the police with that. Due to the fact that he was well aware he was the one breaking the Law initially.

[sleepytom]

watch all of taking liberties - the fact that you believe that we don't and should not have the right to protest is a disturbing matter in itself.

or in actual fact don't - ignorance is bliss - i wish i lived in your dixon of doc green bubble steve where the police are their to protect the weak and the armed services are hard at work protecting our freedom. The trouble is that that world hasn't existed for years and years (if it ever did) Wake up

[SteveG]

Not suggesting they are Tom but nor are the majority how you paint them either. If things were not tightened on this issue for example almost all protests would end like the Poll Tax riots with central London being wrecked. Of course I believe you have a right to protest and dont try to change things around here either...ffs I posted the Human Rights up, think I dont know and support them. Can I also remind you that those peaceful protestors involved in the Poll Tax riots splashed paint all over the very symbols dedicated to those you mention. Not all protestors are peaceful. All I'm saying is on certain issues you've got to take a more balance opinion and view. I've no doubt that if you were travelling through London and delayed for 12 hours due to an unplanned, unapproved protest you would soon change your mind. If you visited the bank but the bank staff could not get to work, you missed your flight ....you get the idea.

[sleepytom]

maybe we should agree to disagree - your spouting utter rubbish now based upon a prejudiced view of a stereotype of protester which if they do exist are a tiny minority. This is offensive and short sited and frankly negates any point that you have made.

[SteveG]

Not at all Tom, as is normal however you are only prepared to see your point of view. As you have stated with with my view of the protestors you also say the same of the armed forces, police, govt etc. I made it very plain early on that normal protests are infiltrated by a minority not the majority...ha ha...think I've never protested. Where have I dammed or spoken against protests or protestors, where do I place them in a box stereotyping them, I dont and would not. It is "utter rubbish" in your opinion. One day you will become wise :D

[sleepytom]

nor are the majority how you paint them either. If things were not tightened on this issue for example almost all protests would end like the Poll Tax riots with central London being wrecked.

???

where have i stereotyped the armed forces, police, government etc?

i've been fairly careful not to paint these groups with the easy stereotypes that exist for them. Mainly as i know it will offend an ex-serviceman which is not going to aid any debate.

[SteveG]

OK as you say lets agree to disagree on this one...I'm not painting protestors and likewise your not trying to stereotype the armed forces, police, govt etc. My only point really was an attempt at a getting a more balanced view on things.....can I get to work now :D

[john01]

Show me a documentry where individuals show the paperwork for their refused demonstrations. If people learn the Law (UK) then they will be well aware that all protests must be approved and has been the case for many years. This I add is also for public safety, policing etc etc etc. This I'm afraid to say is a reporters cheap trick at a piece of anti Govt propaganda. Unfortunately the more riots and trouble that take place at approved demonstrations the more they will be refused.

I'll just add if the smart reporter knew his Human Rights as in UK Law were being broken why did he not then charge the police with that. Due to the fact that he was well aware he was the one breaking the Law initially.

The point the guy is making is you shouldn't need permission to protest against the government from the government.

We have basically given up our status as citizens, the government is supposed to serve the people, not rule over us. Actually I don't know why I'm saying "we" and "us", I left the UK years ago.

Those big iron gates are a bit of a giveaway really. Nation of fear, in a way you can feel sorry for the sad fuckers behind the gates. It also possibly explains why the UK is so badly run, these people have lost touch with reality. Look at Tony Blair, flies halfway round the world to lecture us on climate change, fucking stay at home you pious shithead.

Say one thing for the Chinese, they told Tony he was a boring fucker trotting out platitudes and cliches and not worth the fees he charged.

[vdmoKstaTi]

The keywords : Freedom of Expression are presented as such.
Example given is a small token to clarify the point of seeing Rights that are suppress by further laws and legislations that suppress the obvious.

Freedom is Freedom. If you don't have Freedom of Expression, thats not Freedom, that's a Nazi state.

[vdmoKstaTi]

http://www.dailynk.com/file/2007/06/03/DNKF00041943.jpg

[Rovastar]

I would of turned down the job that addictive have taken - I won't support the Chinese Olympics in any way at all.

I wouldn't work for the Chinese branch of an ad agency either, nor for any other chinese company or organization (unless they were extremely unusual - i would work for amnesty international if they had a chinese branch for example!)

interesting that you bring up google - the way that they have allowed the Chinese government to censor their search engine is very wrong - do no evil my arse.

That is a strong stance Tom even admirable. However how far do you go?

A Chinese company make say software that has nothing to do with the government and they want you to work from them due to your expertise and you will refuse because there government is bad? Is that helping the people?

And I would then guess by your reaction that you would also refuse work from Google in the UK/USA as they have links with Chinese government? (I put Google there for a reason...)

On this note then I wonder how far you will go with your pro-free-Tibet

Do you refuse to give Google, Ebay, Microsoft money (buy adwords, hell even clicking on a sponsored link, etc) as the have dealing with the China government?

Do you refuse to receive money from Google (have adwords one of your sites)?

Do you refuse to use any of Google’s service (searching the web)?

Do you refuse to work for any company that even has offices in China?
Do you buy/use their products be it a mobile phone company, etc?

How far do you go?

[vdmoKstaTi]

If evil own the road which gets me from point A to point B and I have to use it cos i need to be at point B, I'd use it. If that evil starting to spread glass on it to bust tires, I'd make sure I speak about it. << I think thats what Tom would say!
;)

[Liquidmetro]

The right of expression exists in the UK, but within certain parameters. Fear culture is moving the parameters closer together. How far are we going to let the government that serves us go to 'protect' us. 'Who guards the guards' etc. I'm losing faith in the media's role.

What will it take for the international community to get involved? It makes me wonder whether the UK govenrment would have stepped in if we weren't caught up in the war in Afghanistan. i feel there is no question that the international community should intervene, however with the current concerns over US and UK economy, spiralling war debts, do we have the resources to do anything other than boycott the Olympics etc. What will it take for us to step in - an order of genocide to buddist monks? Can we afford to take on another enemy without the backing of the international community?

[sleepytom]

That is a strong stance Tom even admirable. However how far do you go?

A Chinese company make say software that has nothing to do with the government and they want you to work from them due to your expertise and you will refuse because there government is bad? Is that helping the people?

And I would then guess by your reaction that you would also refuse work from Google in the UK/USA as they have links with Chinese government? (I put Google there for a reason...)

On this note then I wonder how far you will go with your pro-free-Tibet

Do you refuse to give Google, Ebay, Microsoft money (buy adwords, hell even clicking on a sponsored link, etc) as the have dealing with the China government?

Do you refuse to receive money from Google (have adwords one of your sites)?

Do you refuse to use any of Google’s service (searching the web)?

Do you refuse to work for any company that even has offices in China?
Do you buy/use their products be it a mobile phone company, etc?

How far do you go?

I do what I feel is reasonably justifiable in terms of it's impact upon me and upon the world - it's not so much that i try to boycott china - more that i try to source products and services from companies which have an ethical position with which i agree.

I wouldn't say that i'm not a hipocryte! But I at least try to be aware of the issues and do what little I can to improve the situation.

I find it depressing that people can't manage to understand that.

ask not what I do about China - ask yourself if you could do something about it!

[john01]

Just found out that Tenger, whose song I posted, will take part in the torch lighting ceremony for the olympics.

Funny old world innit.

Maybe there is a lesson for Tibet here, start doing your Buddhist chants to the sound of synthesizers.

[vjpixylight]

Agreed with what Tom says.. We all inadvertantly support positions we are morally opposed too(paying tax's to support war efforts for example), but that doesn't mean we shouldn't speak out against it.

[Rovastar]

I wouldn't say that i'm not a hipocryte! But I at least try to be aware of the issues and do what little I can to improve the situation.

Sorry I didn't mean to imply that. I was interested to know where you stood.

[Meierhans]

I try not to support "the evil" where I can. I won`t stop breathing because of CO2, but I take the train where I can.

I think this Olympics story just shows of a general problem, just this time things are much clearer then in most other cases. Those monks have worldwide a big sympathy since they speak for peace, love and abdication of violence in a universal way. Chinese Goverment is doing very bad PR by killing them....

I´m not judging anybody, I just make use of my personal right of free speech. And I would not give my manpower into anything with the Olympia 2008 logo on it, nor to a company that does not respect human rights. But thats my point of view.

[Hambone]

I'd like to see a 'big player' like Tesco have the balls to boycott Chinese goods.

It would set a massive precedent and send a clear message to not only China but to the other 'big players'.

[visualchemy]

Interesting thread.
IMHO every human being is obliged to speak out loud (and back it with action when possible) when they see injustice.

Injustice is happening in Tibet now and it is being manipulated by China - check out the Goebels style propaganda on youtube. You can see Chinese agents (or brainwashed citisens) copying and pasting the same slogans in comments. Not sure whether its pathethic or scary :/ And the problem is they actually seem to believe that Tibet was always the part of China and Dalai Lama is a terrorist. They believe it because they have no access to independent information. They are also being brainwashed to love their motherland above anything else (including its citizens). There's no real thinking - predominantly its autopilot style reaction:

free tibet => separatists => terrorists => CIA

all that mixed with vast areas of fear of loosing power or motherlands integrity. As every totalitarian regime China is based on fear.

Tibet is just a part of the problem which is no freedom of speech, no freedom of religion, and no freedom to protest. And its not only Tibetans who suffer from these - its the Falun Gong, its Tiennanmen square, its forced labour camps, its tortures, its ecological disaster happening there, its people killed while protesting againgst illegal land takeovers.

Drawing the parallels between Berlin 1936 and Beijing 2008 seems to be the good point to bring up these issues. Both were the propaganda shows for totalitarian regimes. Both regimes commited mass genocide and mind you - in 1936 nobody knew of Hitler's concentration camps. And both regimes are backed by multinational corporations making profit on lack of freedom and human rights violations. And it all gets even more interesting when we become aware that Western world just outsourced these problems. And it does come to greed - not only of CEOs but of shareholders and individual consumers who will easily swallow 'made in china' when backed with 'buy one get one free' offer. But when the real price, paid by environment and real people far away is shown, the choice is getting much more difficult.

[deepvisual]

now if genuine, this is photo i didn't expect to see...

but having seen it. it comes as no surprise.. although the claim on the linked website below, that this photo was taken by satellite, is nonsense.

http://buddhism.kalachakranet.org/images/Chinese-soldiers-posing-riot-monks-1.jpg

London, March 20 - Britain's GCHQ (http://buddhism.kalachakranet.org/chinese-orchestrating-riots-tibet.htm), has confirmed the claim by the Dalai Lama that agents of the Chinese People's Liberation Army, the PLA, posing as monks, triggered the riots that have left hundreds of Tibetans dead or injured.

[SteveG]

It may very well be going on Gary but I dont think for a minute they would wear their dress uniform underneath the gowns nor do I think you'd have a chance to photograph it like this or have a chance of seeing it in a public place....not even from outer space either.

[deepvisual]

well, if it is fake, it would have taken an expert days...
they would have had to
a) find a photo of chinese troops holding things
b) pose lots of monks clothes in the correct position and then photograph them
c) splice the whole thing together seamlessly.


all the same, the words military and intelligence don't usually go hand in hand.
so its not impossible the PLA dropped a clanger. there were also claims that the police in Tibet who suppresed the 'riots' just happened to have vehicles that are only issued to the PLA.

false flag ops of this kind are commonplace as you can see below in the photo of this 'hamas' gunman

http://www.aztlan.net/fakehamas.jpg

[SteveG]

We've discussed ff ops here before. It's a good pic I just dont think they'd be so stupid...I also think it would have been all over the Nationals and Sky TV first and if genuine. Perhaps the guards were about to do a parade and were carrying their rain macks. You just need to find the photo now ;)

[sleepytom]

yeah obviously it would be in the nation press - they are totally beyond censorship after all - just ask prince harry...

the mainstream media never makes a big thing of the use of agent provocateurs by the state (any state, even ones we don't like) it's too much of an insite into how the world is run and controlled. It just opens too many question in peoples minds (such as "why was the second in command of the ira an mi5 informant / agent for so many years?" )

the major news agencies require the support of the governments of the world to keep giving them stories - their is an unwritten rule about the reporting of such controversial underhand tactics by state forces. This is not directly enforced by any state censor it is more a case of self censorship by the media themselves.

also you know the Chinese would just say it was a fake and that the guy who took it would not come forward and explain where and when it was taken (unless he had a death wish), so the media regard it as an unsafe story which they won't print. It saves their face and keeps them in the governments good books.

[SteveG]

Look at both pictures closely Gary...I think you'll agree if you concentrate on the individuals hairlines and facial features here there are a few similarities.

http://img413.imageshack.us/img413/6210/250453211bf43a37388am9.jpg

[deepvisual]

if you concentrate on the individuals hairlines and facial features...



http://www.fcbarcelonablog.com/images/scousers.jpg

[SteveG]

Just because you now have a Black Belt :D......I'll show you what else it can be used for ;)

http://img413.imageshack.us/img413/2052/demoke7.jpg

[deepvisual]

oh steve...

I know they all look alike, thats why I love em..
but you hardly proved your point with that one, ducky..

even if it was them. it could just be a photo of the same guys from the same day

after all, I did say it was possible to fake it, just far from easy.

[SteveG]

An insult I can forgive....have me associated with Liverpool FC I cannot :D

http://img179.imageshack.us/img179/1429/baldul5.jpg

[asterix]

I don't think anyone will disagree that China's still living in the dark ages of human rights. But it wasn't long ago we had zones for black people, and we could beat our kids black and blue, so long as we didn't kill them.

China is only now 'starting' to open up to the outside world. The olympics is a big deal for them - letting the media and the world into their country. Big changes come in small steps. Who knows, maybe Analogue recycling will show them that, hey, the west has some cool shit. Maybe they're not the evil bastards we've been bought up to believe they are. Or hey, all these great people from around the world that have come here for the olympics are actually kind of like me. And gee, it felt good being a proud nation and showing off what we have to offer, perhaps we'd like to do it more often, and feel bad about anything that has bought shame onto our nation...

People are emotional beings, if you get an opportunity to play with the emotions of billions of people who probably need some humanising, well maybe you should not be so short minded as to do the opposite by slapping them across the face.



Tom's got the right idea. Stay away from them, veto their commerce, talk openly about your point of view. But if you're going in to rock the boat, then I believe you'll be screwing an important opportunity. There are other times and places to protest. The olympics is a peaceful event, let it do its job.

[asterix]

By the way, I'm suprised no-one mentioned darfur, (http://www.savedarfur.org)
where it is believed that chinese oil is the main driving force behind the genocide of hundreds of thousands in the sudan. If thats not the truth of the matter, then it is certainly true that china, with all its weight in the region has done nothing to ease the bloodshed.

[sleepytom]

But if you're going in to rock the boat, then I believe you'll be screwing an important opportunity. There are other times and places to protest. The olympics is a peaceful event, let it do its job.
sorry i strongly disagree - the olymics is the moment to slap them round the face. Where do people get the idea that China will assimilate western values and suddenly become a peaceful democracy with legally enshrined respect for human rights and the environment? The Chinese state is brutally repressive and the Chinese mix of communist repression combined with free market economics is extremely dangerous.

The olymics might be a peaceful event but it will have no impact on china if it is allowed to go ahead and take place without protest. After all the olymics did nothing to prevent the rise of nazi germany. So whist the world media is focused on China take the opportunity to criticize and embarrass them. They have put themselves on a pedestal before the world, it is our job to point out that it is made of shit.

People are emotional beings, if you get an opportunity to play with the emotions of billions of people who probably need some humanising, well maybe you should not be so short minded as to do the opposite by slapping them across the face. Umm could you try and be a bit more blinkered and offensive please? "Probably need some humanising" WTF?? maybe your the one who needs humanising?

The people of china are not the ones who'll be slapped in the face by protests - protests are aimed at the rulers not the people. It's time that the people of the world stood shoulder to shoulder with their Chinese brothers and spoke out against the repressive regime that they suffer under.

[asterix]

well you're the one saying they're repressed Tom. What does that imply? If they are happy and able to live life to their full potential, then perhaps you have no argument. Humanising might not be the correct word but it conveys my meaning.

[gnomatron]

The Olympics is THE time to boycott china precisely BECAUSE of the values it claims to enshrine - values which China has proven time and again to not respect. Freedom of expression, religion and speech are all alien concepts in China. The UK and US are pretty rough too what with our illegal invasions, of course, but that just means we should go and protest the 2012 olympics too.

[asterix]

The olympics does not enshrine values it promotes them. Even its creators the greeks where a warring civilisation (however wars where ceased while the games where held). In 100 years time people will look back at our standards of social reform and cringe at what we believe is right.

From olympics.org: According to the Olympic Charter, established by Pierre de Coubertin, the goal of the Olympic Movement is to contribute to building a peaceful and better world by educating youth through sport practised without discrimination of any kind and in the Olympic spirit, which requires mutual understanding with a spirit of friendship, solidarity and fair play.

Let us export our oarsmen, our runners, our fencers into other lands. That is the true Free Trade of the future; and the day it is introduced into Europe the cause of Peace will have received a new and strong ally. (http://history1900s.about.com/library/weekly/aa081000a.htm)



Like I said, the olympics is a beacon for change. Have you forgotten the meaning of the five colored circles, and what was taught to you about it in school?

[sleepytom]

the olympics is a sports contest - nothing more than that.

change only comes through the barrel of a gun

the Chinese olympics promotes the brand of china I want nothing to do with promoting their brand as it is built on fear and violence.

I am happy to discriminate against people who shoot unarmed monks, fuck them, and fuck their olymics.

[asterix]

Well like I said, yourself and Spielberg are right. Veto your involvement, talk about it with the public and your peers. But let the games go on and do their job. It is afterall a tool of peace not a trading chip.

[deepvisual]

let the games go on and do their job. It is afterall a tool of peace not a trading chip.

well, its more about nationalism than peace.

but would it be rude to tell a wife beater to stop??
it might be ruder not to.

[asterix]

Well I don't know what they teach uk kids but in Australia the education was very 'world peace' 'one world' etc oriented.

If the international 'perception' of Australia's treatment of Aboriginees was anything to go by, then maybe sydney 2000 was a farce too?.

How about America, who consume and polute far more per capita than china, and we're all aware of the politics of the uk's involvement in iraq & afghanistan. Geese those nasty french where testing nuclear war heads a few years ago, and we all know the only use for that could be...You could pick holes in any country if you had too.

But do our churches stop wife beaters, rapists & killers from attending mass? I guess they agree that its everyones job to allow others to better themselves should the opportunity arise.

China can't keep going the way it is for much longer. Change is a slow process. You gotta build the bridges one nail at a time.

[deepvisual]

China can't keep going the way it is for much longer. Change is a slow process.

bit of a contradiction here though... it can't stay the same, but it isn't going to change easily.

The truth is china will only change the way it wants to, unless there is another internal revolt like tiananmen, which is unlikely.
This situation doesn't automatically mean things will get better however slowly, what is more likely, in fact what is already happening, is that rather than China becoming more 'democratic', the western democracies are becoming more autocratic like China.
sending a clear message to the world that people disapprove of torture is heard just as loudly at home as it is abroad.

remember, china chose the olympics. they only have themselves to blame if it all goes wrong.

[asterix]

Actually it is times like these that china has traditionally had uprising and revolt. Either way it will be interesting to see what becomes of it all.

I was going to mention the environmentally friendly buildings being constructed for the games (particularly at the pool). But I remember Australia's environmentally friendly effect ecompassed biodegradable starch based plates and cups rather than plastic. And renewable energy powering the athletes village. Neither of which has really taken off since here in Aus. Although my webservers recently switched to renewables... I guess its slowly slowly, and mostly for show at the end of the day.

I will mention the electric sense of pride our nation felt building up towards the 2000 olympics. No doubt the UK will be starting to sense it already in anticipation for their effort. I imagine even the small rumbles in the media about china/tibet will be quite a tease in China at the moment.

[deepvisual]

I will mention the electric sense of pride our nation felt building up towards the 2000 olympics. No doubt the UK will be starting to sense it already

maybe i am just getting old and cynical, but the only sense I have so far is of impending doom.
for example, the govn forgot to add VAT to the costs of 2012 so everything immediately went 17.5% over budget ( which is a lot when you are spending billions) and with the disaster that was the millenium dome and the near collapse of management at the new airport terminal and the UK currently fighting and losing two aggressive wars, things aren't looking too optimistic.
worst of all, is that it was the arch criminal Blair who 'won' 2012 for the UK so the UK olympics will forever be tarnished by association with Iraq and corruption

[asterix]

not to mention 400,000 quid on the tackiest logo of all time :)
http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/43005000/gif/_43005619_london_new_pink_203.gif

oh man did heads roll for this disaster or what?

[vdmoKstaTi]

not to mention 400,000 quid on the tackiest logo of all time :)
http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/43005000/gif/_43005619_london_new_pink_203.gif

oh man did heads roll for this disaster or what?

This could be interesting watch to some if you choose to dive into 2012 logo Olympics discussion.

YouTube - Marketing@Google: Dean Crutchfield



==

Olympics.


In this discussion there has been a lot of points raised and it can possibly run for ten fold more without seeing the constructing elements that perform decision making moves in approval as things unravel. Sorry for double speak. Some might pick on it right away.

Human rights are there if you know how to keep them. for most part, any of you give your rights away to your governments unknowingly and willingly without being alert to deceptions that are in place. this applies to every country as a matter of fact. All governments guilty of such deceptions. The language of Law in place applies to members of Law society yet many are mislead to think same applies to them. This and the fact that words are encoded to mean things beyond plain English.

there is a long process which would need to be taken for things to change and it requires very dramatic thought change and approach to understand on where things are and who you are in big scheme of things.

while many like to raise points about freedoms in some other country which majority don't know much about, the simple fact of not understanding your own freedoms is the one at hand and this is something that people should pay closer attention to before jumping aboard.

its all begins with you. << little hint there

[asterix]

Nice spot on the vid.

Container branding is genius. Too bad the opposite of their core goal, to get the wider community to take ownership, was achieved. And then he had the gual to pin it on the client!

[SteveG]

maybe i am just getting old and cynical, but the only sense I have so far is of impending doom.
for example, the govn forgot to add VAT to the costs of 2012 so everything immediately went 17.5% over budget ( which is a lot when you are spending billions) and with the disaster that was the millenium dome and the near collapse of management at the new airport terminal and the UK currently fighting and losing two aggressive wars, things aren't looking too optimistic.
worst of all, is that it was the arch criminal Blair who 'won' 2012 for the UK so the UK olympics will forever be tarnished by association with Iraq and corruption

Surely you remember what the country was like last time labour were in the driving seat? I think when either of the UK major parties are in power too long we have lots of problems. Too long with the Tories and Thatcher and now too long under Labour. Their focus shifts very quickly from looking after the country and trying to impress us to looking after themselves and their cronies....ensuring they have jobs lined up for the future and making lots of £'s and $'s from their hidden business ventures and "friendships".

[john01]

This could be interesting watch to some if you choose to dive into 2012 logo Olympics discussion.


See if you can count how many times he says "shift the paradigm"

Consultancy is a great business, you take credit for any success, and disown any failure.

I'd be interested to see if there were any other factors at work in the GE success, was it an increase in profit through an increase in sales, or due to a reduction in staff numbers I wonder.

Corporate social responsibility is becoming a necessity, if you want to employ and keep good staff you have to take it on board.

Concerning the Olympic logo, you never make excuses in business, you should predict all possible scenarios and have a plan to deal with them. A logo should work in any format.

They should have been aware of the red frequency, rapid changes of luminance and epilepsy issue (http://trace.wisc.edu/peat/).

[asterix]

Exactly. Its all well and good to say, oh yeah the company is profiting by x amount more each year... but how much of that is brand relevant. GE I imagine would have received a good across the board boost to its 1600 subsidiary businesses by consolidating the brand. I didn't mind what they've done in the advert example they provided. But many of the others are quite bland and non functional examples of what branding is all about.

[john01]

It also might have been on the back of China's increasingly affluent consumers. Apparently there is a disproportionate rise in energy consumption in relation to an increase in GDP per person over a certain amount. Basically people start being able to afford multiple electronic goods. I was reading in the Economist recently China has just experienced this.

Always take these kinds of presentations with a dose of salt.

[vdmoKstaTi]

http://www.citynews.ca/images/2006-06/jun2106-saltshaker.jpg

[deepvisual]

ah good..
we should be anti-nationalist by supporting China's nationalism.
that makes things much clearer.

[john01]

It's a kind of zen, one hand clapping and all that, quite appropriate don't you think.

[deepvisual]

maybe , but he forgot to mention the flying saucers....

[Meierhans]

ah good..
we should be anti-nationalist by supporting China's nationalism.
that makes things much clearer.

Thanks for clearing up things. But I guess its all about 23. Its everywhere around you, just open your eyes and SEE! :lurker2:

http://www.landoweg.de/adventskalender/images/23.jpg

@Olympia=Peace: I can`t deny any of those facts (even thought I can`t prove some of them), but the clue you make out of it absolute nonsense.

It will not hurt the peace on earth if the olympia does not happen once in thousand years, but it will help the peace if any of the the existing shortcomings shows up in mainstream media. May it be Tibet or Baltic.

[john01]

flying saucers ? take a look at the Olympic logo, a symbolic schematic and maybe a mystery circle or two in there too

and it's 22, not 23

23 is what comes after the world is taken over by 22

Catch 23, just doesn't sound right does it.

[USE]

he does have a point - is it really spontaneous uprising in Tibet? the dalai llama has clearly distanced himself from the violence and the violence does not appear to be totally chaotic as it occurred in many places simultaneously.

as far as i know the greatest powers of the world (the big western dynasties - Rothschild, Rockefeller, Ford, Bush, Toyota, Guggenheim) while havign strong ties to chinese enterprise have yet to get the absolute stranglehold which they currently have over the western world.

china is the only credible threat to the western capitalist power base, although i doubt the west would try it on at the moment, as china would wipe us out, i do believe there is a propaganda war on which we are pawns in.

that is not to say for one second that i condone the actions of china.

if teh revolt in Tibet is a genuine grassroots protest at the genocide and horror that has been perpetrated against teh country then i am wholeheartedly behind that, but my question is - why did the western media and government stand by when it was originally invaded when some good could have been done? as it stands Tibet is so damaged by the dilution of its peopel and destruction of its culture, the country formerly known as Tibet is all but dead.

[deepvisual]

but my question is - why did the western media and government stand by when it was originally invaded when some good could have been done?

probably because the UN had just had their asses well and truly kicked by the chinese in Korea.

[Rovastar]

Leave us alone trolls.

Any more trolls come into this thread and I'll lock it.

[USE]

Leave us alone trolls.

Any more trolls come into this thread and I'll lock it.

smacks of censorship, let the trolls have their say!

at least they're keeping the debate alive.

[Rovastar]

Trolls have no place here. If this thread or any decending in trolls ranting then I will delete there posts, ban them, lock the threads, etc, etc.

It doesn't matter what 'side' they are on. They trawl through the Internet looking for keywords and cut and paste their propganda. I will not help spread their message.

[Meierhans]

http://a714.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/images01/99/s_053874001b725d24f9cca9ff09c70069.jpg

ok, ban him..

[gnomatron]

the olympics is a sports contest - nothing more than that.

That's a deliberately naive view - it's a massive political and promotional tool for the hosting country, much more so than a sporting contest. It also has stated political aims - laudable ones, mind you! They don't sit well with China's regime at all though, and as for;

the goal of the Olympic Movement is to contribute to building a peaceful and better world by educating youth through sport practised without discrimination of any kind and in the Olympic spirit, which requires mutual understanding with a spirit of friendship, solidarity and fair play.

There are few, if any, countries in the world who's policies and practises are less in line with those goals than China.



It may very well be going on Gary but I dont think for a minute they would wear their dress uniform underneath the gowns nor do I think you'd have a chance to photograph it like this or have a chance of seeing it in a public place....not even from outer space either.

The photo's real, but it has sod all to do with the protests;

This photo was apparently made when monks refused to play as actors in a movie, so soldiers were ordered to put on robes.

from the website that the photo's from...

(oh god, please ban the nutjob conspiracy theorist, where did he come from?)

[deepvisual]

The photo's real, but it has sod all to do with the protests;
from the website that the photo's from...

is it possible you could link to this???
aw forgot it,, I found it anyway here (http://thinkpossible.gaia.com/blog/2008/4/dharma_or_deception_chinese_soldiers_dressed_as_ti betan_monks).

.

[Rovastar]

(oh god, please ban the nutjob conspiracy theorist, where did he come from?)

He's gone now. wiped out his posts. I think it was probably some sort of troll bot.

Note I am happy to talk about this issue (so no crazy censorship from me) just when troll outsiders come in rather than us it just makes things unmanageable.

[USE]

He's gone now. wiped out his posts. I think it was probably some sort of troll bot.

Note I am happy to talk about this issue (so no crazy censorship from me) just when troll outsiders come in rather than us it just makes things unmanageable.

i think you just became your own enemy.

shame on you.

[Rovastar]

The photo's real, but it has sod all to do with the protests;


Quote:
This photo was apparently made when monks refused to play as actors in a movie, so soldiers were ordered to put on robes.



Still not right according to the article Gary posted http://thinkpossible.gaia.com/blog/2008/4/dharma_or_deception_chinese_soldiers_dressed_as_ti betan_monks
(and the article does seem fairly well researched and 'fair'. a good read. )

'11) After forwarding this information to the webmaster at Kalachakra.net, he changed the subtitle of the photo to read: "This is not an uncommon 'tactical move' from the Chinese government, as could be seen on the back-cover of the 2003 annual TCHRD Report. This photo was apparently made when monks refused to play as actors in a movie, so soldiers were ordered to put on robes."

While this is slightly more accurate, it is still misleading... as he decided to interpret the information I gave him differently than the truth I offered. Nowhere does this information suggest that monks refused to be actors in the film. The people in the photo may not have even been real soldiers. Even if they were real Chinese soldiers, they are routinely asked to be extras in films made in China. The 2002 movie 'Hero' used 18,000 soldiers as extras, for example.'

[deepvisual]

"democracy" and "freedom of speech"???


this democracy and freedom of speech you talk about..
would that happen to be the same democracy and freedom we saw in action in Tiananmen Square on 4th June 1989??


http://gopkorea.blogs.com/flyingyangban/images/tanks.jpg

[asterix]

I deleted those post's sorry. I agree with Rova, this forums for vj's and their opinions - not paid propaganda nerds. To make up... here's something special...

http://forum.broke-off.com/uploads/post-1-1123860436.jpg

[deepvisual]

shame.
I was just warming up....

[john01]

I have to say when they announced the Iraqi team at the least Olympics I got a lump in my throat. It was very touching to hear the reception they got, as individual athletes coming out of a war zone, and as representatives of a country which was being destroyed. Seemed like the applause of the people spoke volumes. There are politics in the Olympics, it is a chance for normal people to express opinions. I will be cheering any female Iranian high jumpers.

As for the trolls, I always think it is a shame they don't actually do us the courtesy to hang out on the forum a while, get to know people, partake in discussions about the really important issues in our lives like image resolutions, hardware glitches and fixes, payment and non payment, and most importantly why we never get groupies like the DJs do, before they give us the benefit of their stream of conscious disjointed rhetoric. We have so much in common, too many boys, and not enough girls.

[SteveG]

I always think it is a shame they don't actually do us the courtesy to hang out on the forum a while, get to know people, partake in discussions about the really important issues in our lives like image resolutions, hardware glitches and fixes, payment and non payment, and most importantly why we never get groupies like the DJs do, before they give us the benefit of their stream of conscious disjointed rhetoric. We have so much in common, too many boys, and not enough girls.

:lol2: Class

[john01]

Exactly. Its all well and good to say, oh yeah the company is profiting by x amount more each year... but how much of that is brand relevant. GE I imagine would have received a good across the board boost to its 1600 subsidiary businesses by consolidating the brand. I didn't mind what they've done in the advert example they provided. But many of the others are quite bland and non functional examples of what branding is all about.

Ping pong as they say in Japanese (kind of means, that's on target)

GE shocks market with profit drop, shares tumble (http://www.reuters.com/article/newsOne/idUSWNAS745820080411)

GE, which also has media and finance arms, reported a profit of $4.3 billion, or 43 cents per diluted share, compared with $4.57 billion, or 44 cents, a year earlier. Revenue rose 7.8 percent to $42.24 billion.

The sharpest drop in segment profit came at the conglomerate's financial divisions, with commercial finance down 20 percent and GE Money consumer finance down 19 percent. GE's finance arms make commercial and consumer loans, including financing purchases by corporations and individuals.

Profit at GE's industrial unit, which makes things like lighting and appliances, fell 16 percent and health care was down 16 percent.

Those declines overshadowed a 17 percent rise in profit at the infrastructure unit, which has been boosted by emerging-market demand for heavy equipment like electricity-producing turbines. NBC Universal's profit rose 3 percent.

So the story wasn't nearly as simple as that guy was making out.

[vj_jasper]

lets all support companies that publicly boycott the olympics.

lets boycott VJ's who think its fine to do nothing.

i feel really strongly about this and if anyone says it is fine to do nothing, then personally i can have nothing to do with them. it is easy to show a pic of the Dalai Lama, and it is always a good vibe.

yo, VJ's out there in the world.. if you show a pic of the Dalai Lama in your set then the night is guaranteed to have a good vibe flowing.

china is showing massive disrespect to the entire world. the Tibetan people are like a glowing flock of angels who lived peacefully spiritually and beautifully. i just cannot stand around and watch china try to erect a fake spiritual leader of Tibet, trying to trick the world. how dare they try to fool us?

the current Dalai Lama in exile has so many valuable gems of wisdom for everyone. also... there is a proper new Dalai Lama, ready to lead the Tibetan people at the proper time, he exists, but the Chinese hide him from the world and put their own simulcrum in his place..

i for one will be mixing VJ sets as awesomely and artistically as i can, to the best of my ability this year, but i will also be inputting a very, very strong spiritual message about the power of love and the great need for the world to see the proper Dalai Lama leading Tibet under meaningful autonomy.

i will do this in every single set i mix, whether it be at Splendour In The Grass or a friend's party. and the message will go on, past this year, and many VJ's will take up this cause over the next three years imho.

a book (by a westerner) about trekking through Tibet "in search of the Snow Leopard" is an excellent read, and is much more than just a travel story.. kind of about the human spirit, the Tibetan spirit, and universal concepts..

[deepvisual]

very noble jasper.
but the Tibetans are just people like you and me, not a glowing flock of angels.

However, the Buddism that has remained in Tibet for over a 1000 years - now that is special

[vdmoKstaTi]

The whole experience towards Chinese Olympic games quite honestly stinks. I really really really feel bad for marathon runners who would have to run in one of the most polluted cities in the world.

I can only bitch about it, but there isn't much that I can do from where I am.

[john01]

Thing I like about the Dalai Lama is he is very human, he admits there are days when he is a grumpy old man, that he likes to have a cup of tea. He sometimes makes mistakes too, like meeting Asahara Shoko of AUM Shinrikyo fame. A very imperfect celestial being.

He says he is not a devil

probably not an Iron Maiden fan either

http://www4.pictures.gi.zimbio.com/Dalai+Lama+Holds+Press+Conference+Japan+QS2xvB3b_a Kl.jpg

But angels is stretching it a bit, there was a racist side to the trouble in Tibet, the Han Chinese were targeted. The grumpy old man threatened to resign because of the violence by Tibetans.

[deepvisual]

China wins first Gold medal of 2008 Olympics (http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/apr/15/humanrights.olympicgames2008)

Amnesty's UK director Kate Allen said: "As the world's biggest executioner, China gets the 'gold medal' for global executions.

[deepvisual]

There was a racist side to the trouble in Tibet, the Han Chinese were targeted.

That's a bit like saying the French resistance were racist because they only targetted Germans.

[john01]

That's a bit like saying the French resistance were racist because they only targetted Germans.

Except the French resistance targetted collaborators too. The French attacked German soldiers, the Tibetans were attacking businesses and civilians, as well as the odd uniformed person. I'm not siding with the Chinese here, I think the strength of the Dalai Lama's stance is he appears to have the moral high ground of peaceful resistance. I think his offer to attend the opening ceremony is a brilliant tactic, personally brave, and a well timed spanner to throw in the propaganda machine.

Humans are migatory animals, if everyone goes back to where they came from a bit of me would have to go to Portugal, a bit to Ireland, a bit to Scotland, a bit to East Anglia, a bit to Cheshire, and I suspect a bit to Wales too. Racial division is a very dangerous concept for me.

Personally I would rather we did away completely with the concept of countries, unfortunately people are always jealous of what they believe are their resources and envious of their neighbours'.

[deepvisual]

take your point.

essentially its a racist occupation. So no surprise the underdog hits back in the way they have been treated, right or wrong -
Tibet is kinda central to Tibetan Buddhism - a lot of TB is place specific. I very much doubt the Dalai wants to be ruler of the TAR. Its just that there are many in Tibet who need him and want him to return. Meanwhile China is waiting for him to die so they can select a CPC approved Dalai of their own to replace him.

[vjpixylight]

the ruling male elites in Tibet are no angels..
For one, women have always been looked at as a lower class, as if their karma
was ment to be subservient to men.
For Tibet to have equality, they must clean house of these traditions that keep their women down.
http://tibettalk.wordpress.com/2007/07/06/tibetan-women-where-do-they-stand/

[deepvisual]

sorry Pixy
this sounds like utter bollocks.
its just the opinion of one person.
I don't believe a word of it.

[vjpixylight]

hey I'm all for Tibet sovereignty, but just needed to point out that Tibetan's
are not angels, and the Dali Lama himself, is no god. He is just a simple buddhist monk, as he quite often refers to himself.
When any peoples elevate themselves to some kind of enlightened state, that reckons they are special, there surely will be problems..
As for Tibetan women, a good read about the equities and in equities of women in Tibet is by Sir Charles Bell, called "The People of Tibet". (http://www.exoticindiaart.com/book/details/IDD466/)
In this book, Sir Charles points out many of the problems that women face in Tibet, like Laymen are generally considered common and unclean (kyu-ma tang tsok-pa), and so are all women, even nuns”.

[deepvisual]

a few points.
Tibet pre- Chinese invasion, was comparable to europe in the 16th century. Its disingenuous to frame discussion of Tibetan culture in terms of 21st C ideas like womens rights etc and i wouldn't go reading too much into the ideas of western adventurers like Bell who could only look at the culture from the outside. take Blavatski for instance. most of her 'facts' about magic in Tibet have turned out to be traveller's tales.
Also, there is a lot of black propaganda popping up at the moment re Tibet - deliberate efforts on the part of the CPC to smear the Dalai.

as for angels gods and monks..
well, Westerners tend to frame Buddhist ideas in western terms, but these are usually very wide of the mark.
While its true that the DL is just a simple monk, he is also, well something more than that. Tibetan deities are usually representations of exalted principles such as compassion, wisdom and so on. To the Tibetans, the Dalai is an incarnation of the Buddha of infinite compassion, so although he is just a man, he is also a channel for the two way relationship between the Tibetans and this cosmic principle of 'the one who sees the suffering of all' the infinitely compassionate being. In doing so he reflects for the Tibetans, the divine that is within all beings. so he is nothing like the pope for example.
Sadly in the west, his position is usually translated as god-king, putting him on the same level as marlon brando's character Kurtz in Apocalypse Now.

The state religion of Tibet was anuttarayoga tantra. An imponderable and extremely complex system of meditation practices and astrological treatise that form an all encompassing model of the universe in the form of a mandala.. and that is what made Tibet so special. a whole country isolated from the rest of the world, where everybody devotedly practiced the highest forms of spirituality.
Tibet pre-1950 may not have had any roads, but they were a damned sight more civilized than many democracies are today

deep shit huh and a far cry from sociology

[vjpixylight]

yes, sadly the forums here are western observations...
what is not western, is the association between the chinese and tibetans.
When any of us choose sides in this ancient cultural debate, we are merely outside observers as well, are we not?

[deepvisual]

I'll gladly admit my bias.
for what its worth, here's a little bit of my tale.

i went to Tibet in 1994 with a re-incarnate Tibetan Lama. We travelled 'undercover' as part of a group of tourists, but instead of sight seeing, we planned to smuggle the priceless relics from his monastery, that he had taken with him when he escaped in 1958, back into East Tibet in our luggage. We eventually made it to the monastery, which really was as far away from anywhere as you are likely to get in the world. It had all been destroyed during the cultural revolution and only 4 out of the 3000 people who had lived there were still alive. One of them hadn't spoken a word for over 30 years, since the the day the Chinese had massacred all the monks and the locals had assumed he had been struck dumb. but when he met the Lama again, he spoke to him of what had happened..
The monastery is now being rebuilt and I look forwards to the time when Tibetans are free to practice their religion again.

The Tibetans are not perfect, but the Chinese are clever and cruel, worse than the yanks and nearly as bad as the British..

[vjpixylight]

Thats an amazing story Gary! I can certainly see why this is of grave importance to you. Yes, the Chinese have been ruthless and cruel in their treatment of Tibet and Tibetans. The results has been devastating for many of the people there, and has shown China to be a big bully.
What the dali lama has done is to accept this and move on. He has shown compassion for his persecutors, and is better for it.
The Olympics are a sporting event that should never be politized. period.
If those who want to be in solidarity with the Tibetan people could only see that protesting the Olympics(in China) will only create more violence and ill will, would they still follow the Dali lama at all costs to create this? If yes, then they must not really care for the Dali lama, but instead be needing to fulfil their own self rightous initiatives.
Believe me, the dali lama can take care of Tibet and himself without the western violence that precedes this all...

As for china, the more the west tries to isolate china, the more we will be shooting ourselves in the foot. China has the most coal of any country in the world, and the worst ways of polluting with it. As China grows, they will use that coal in ways that will ultimately upset the fragile balance of global warming much more than most here might realize. We need to open China up and invest in China before it is too late for all of us..That my 2 cents anyhow...

[dreamteck]

the olympics is a sports contest - nothing more than that.


No it's not man. The 'Olympics' is a peace-treaty in a time off perpetual political war (or supposed to be). The world has been in perpetual war since the Greeks invented them. (and before that of course)

They're the only thing in the world that unites us. We are forced to reflect in that moment off time.

It's a way off reminding ourselves that we're still human no matter how barbaric we seem. (or the Chinese seem)

There's hope simply by pressing PAUSE and competing in fair play and in something other than Politics (war).

Well I guess it's kind off an extension off war really, where Gold medals are used as measure off how superior one country might be over another (in propaganda terms if you like)

No matter how fucked up some countries are, we should never boycott the Olympics because you'll only be boycotting/denying your human desire for peace.

The Greeks would Butcher eachother in war. They were 'BARBARIC' and rediculously 'HATEFUL' like you wouldn't believe yet they 'still' managed to stop and compete in fair play ! Bizzare i know but the whole point off the olympics is to put aside this hate for your enemy, and to remember that no matter how much you enjoy killing him your'e still human and STILL yearn for that idealistic and peaceful future ! (how twisted is that eh ?)

I believe that the day the Olympics are stopped or completely boycotted by everyone (which would also be financially stupid considering how commercial they are $$$$).... is when the world has completely given up hope in solving its differences. This would bode badly for our future !

If anything it's times like this that we need the Olympics so we can all reflect on our wrong doings and put out the 'olive branch'

ANYWAY F*ck it ! I still believe we're getting nuked in the future, but as long as the Olympics are around there's still hope.




P.S (deepvisual wow off a read)

[vjpixylight]

well now when a righty and a lefty can agree on something like this, there is indeed hope:p

[deepvisual]

spectacular footage of Tibet circa 1950 - 59 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/page/item/b0093677.shtml?order=aztitle%3Aalphabetical&filter=category%3A100005&scope=iplayercategories&start=6&version_pid=b009366p)

[vjpixylight]

only for the UK viewing public:rolleyes:
I might add that there is a bigger picture here. Autonomy for Tibet and the rights to worship how they may, will do them little good, if the world as a whole doesn't join together in a common unity to preserve where we all live.
I'm sure the Dali Lama understands this, and so he is relevant not for just Tibet, but on the world stage. Had not history brought this about, most people wouldn't even know what a Lama is.
Do gooding and do gooders often end up with unintended consequences, and those who rise above intended consequences, often do the longest lasting good:)

[vdmoKstaTi]

Why do people always say; Free Tibet, Free Tibet? What about Free Iraq, and Free Afghanistan? Hypocrisy in the making, isn't it?

[deepvisual]

well, its because China do PR so badly.

by your logic, we should ignore 911 and focus on the number of people killed by cars every day..
sadly, humans are far from perfect, so they will always be willing to save the donkeys and fluffy bunny rabbits, but ignore the starving millions

[vdmoKstaTi]

well, its because China do PR so badly.

by your logic, we should ignore 911 and focus on the number of people killed by cars every day..
sadly, humans are far from perfect, so they will always be willing to save the donkeys and fluffy bunny rabbits, but ignore the starving millions

Im sure PR in China is top notch :) IN China :)


And what you saying also is absolutely correct! There are tons of issues which need to be addressed that overall make up for a bigger chunk of statistics, yet whenever you have some business interests at hand its always gets swiped to a sideline.

[rayrik]

Why do people always say; Free Tibet, Free Tibet? What about Free Iraq, and Free Afghanistan? Hypocrisy in the making, isn't it?
Because they still independent countries, not provinces of USA or UK.
I am astonish how ignorant and insensitive some of the comments in this thread are. Honestly, often making me sick. On other hand remember seeing a comment on those issue on some other forum made by a Russian "you dont know shit, and I am happy for you". Most of you were brought up in free societies, even if most of you love to complain, and nothing wrong with it. Ignorant or educated, even if you read hundreds of books and seen zillions of documentaries you will never know what oppression, totalitarian dictatorship REALLY mean. Please, dont come up with how bad CIA, MI6 are, or how cruel is treatment of animals in EU. What goes in China, Nord Korea or Cuba is not TV show, it concerns lives of real people.
Have you ever woke up, switch on TV and there was just B&W noise- nothing, phone is dead, you look out of the window and you see tanks and soldiers, TV;radio, public transport suspended. You walk few kilometers to see if your brother is OK..................take almost a year to get out of that limbo. Can you know really how it feels ? Oh yeah, you don't know shit about it and I am happy for you that you don't. I would be happy not to know how it feels but unfortunately, I did wake up in situation described above.

[sleepytom]

yeah i'm very happy to not know shit about the reality of living in a totalitarian regime, but having spent some time in places which have suffered under such regimes and in places which have suffered under economic collapse and nationalist take overs i'm all the more aware how close we all are to such instability. Can I imagine having to queue up all day to not get a loaf of bread? No not really as i've never had to - but the one thing that has stuck with me from talking to people who have done this is that they could not of imagined it either until they found themselves doing it.

So much as I support the people of Tibet, China, Afghanistan, Sudan, and Iraq in their struggle to live free lives in peace. I also realize the fragility of my own comfortable existence. I'm very aware of the luxury of my own life and thus will defend my freedoms as best I can as well as supporting those less lucky then myself.

[vjpixylight]

I find it surprising that many here are against the war in Iraq, but would support Tibet in a war of independence against China. With that same reasoning, that the world needs to rid it's self from tyrants like Saddam,
that the only way forward is to crush totalitarian regimes, that to bring freedom worldwide we all must take sides...(no matter the costs)
Unfortunately it is always a bit more complicated than that.
I watched "Illicit" (http://www.pbs.org/illicit/) last night on the telly, and was surprised by what I learned.
One cannot blame China for all the counterfeit good there are being sold around the world, without looking at why we buy those goods, and how we all, in one way or another, support it...

[sleepytom]

I support popular uprisings against opressive regimes - i do not support regime change by external forces when the people have not clearly called for assistence.

the people of tibet activly seek our help and support in regaining autonomy from china. the people of iraq never asked us to go and get rid of Saddam.

I support the use of a political process to free tibet. I would not support a british / usa invasion to free tibet.

[vjpixylight]

but how do you support non violent uprisings against totalitarian regimes without violence?
The dali lama can be non violent in doing so, but yet violence still results.
Any support, in one form or another, has ripple effects that lead to violent opposition.:Touch

[rayrik]

I find it surprising that many here are against the war in Iraq, but would support Tibet in a war of independence against China..
Common sense, common moral sense widely spread among civilised countries, what is surprising about people oppssing the idea of superpower attacking and occupying another country claiming they are liberating them - in Tibet liberating from feudal ruler and in Iraq -weapons of mass destruction.
BTW is there particular reason for notoriously misspelling the name of Dalai Lama, just curious .

[vjpixylight]

Common sense, common moral sense widely spread among civilised countries, what is surprising about people oppssing the idea of superpower attacking and occupying another country claiming they are liberating them - in Tibet liberating from feudal ruler and in Iraq -weapons of mass destruction.
BTW is there particular reason for notoriously misspelling the name of Dalai Lama, just curious .

No, No notorious reason.(I guess I should use Tenzin Gyatso to make it clear)

BTW, Buddhism was not originally part of the Tibetan culture, moving to Tibet from India around the 8th century. It was also decreed the state religion at that time. By contrast Buddhist teaching's arrived in China as early as the 2nd century BC..

[rayrik]

It is enough to simply write Dalai Lama.

[vjpixylight]

Why do people always say; Free Tibet, Free Tibet? What about Free Iraq, and Free Afghanistan? Hypocrisy in the making, isn't it?
...or we could heed the words of Bob Marley.."Emancipate yourself from mental slavery, none but ourselves can free our mind."

[john01]

...or we could heed the words of Bob Marley.."Emancipate yourself from mental slavery, none but ourselves can free our mind."

We should always heed the words of Bob.

[BIOPTIX]

The Dalai Lama supports the Chinese Olympics. It is the best vehicle to draw the attention of the globe to the Tibetan cause.

The Chinese had planned for the global torch relay to be a massive propaganda campaign (ala the Nazis) but fortunately people have turned propaganda into protest.

I don't see how a boycott of the olympics would benefit Tibet or the Chinese oppressed. I read a good article by a human rights activist in China (they do exist) about how China would react to a boycott. Basically no one benefits. Human rights in China only have a chance of being established as long as China is open to the West. A boycott would result in a reversal of any progress made. The people of China and Tibet would suffer even more. The Dalai Lama also knows this.

Give China their games and use the opportunity to speak the truth to the world.

[vjpixylight]

word bioptix!
If only we would have taken this approach with germany after WW1, the world would have been so much better off..

[deepvisual]

Its important to remember, if you let the chinese have their own way, Tibet will cease to exist.
Doing nothing for fear of upsetting the Chinese isn't really going to do anything other than play into Beijing's hands.

The only reason the chinese people would be upset about a boycott is because they have been systematically lied to for 50 years about Tibet and the dalai.
take a look at the china daily news forum (http://bbs.chinadaily.com.cn/index.php).
You'll find proof that

Nehru gave asylum to dalai Lama in return for US help to India for developing a nuclear bomb

the Chinese government has never abused anyone. On the contrary，Dalai Lama，who is considered to be Peace-loving people by your western countries, used to abuse and murder the innocent persons when he was in Tibet. The reason why Dalai Lama is given so high rating is only that he is opposed to the chinese Government

High time for India to expel the playboy as a leader of the insurgency. India should not have given him refuge in the first place on account of him being on the CIA payroll and leader of the insurgency. Legally, that makes him a terrorist

[rayrik]

Its important to remember, if you let the chinese have their own way, Tibet will cease to exist.

I disagree, if we let chinese totalitarian regime have their way our civilisation/ culture/way of life would cease to exist and I do not think I am exaggerating.
BTW. agree about the boycott- it is great opportunity-quod erat demonstrandum- after some many years at least the world talks, became aware of Tibet.
I am really proud of torch relay latest fiasco in my home country (India) from what I hear the only audience/spectators was armed police as this time they isolated it completely from the general public.

[john01]

Apparently they bussed in some school children to watch it too.

Japan has decided to deploy riot police along the route when the torch comes to Nagano, prior to all these protests they were just going to treat it as a traffic issue. They've told the Chinese "protectors of the flame" all they can do is put out the flame if things get difficult but they have to leave security issues to the J-police.

I doubt there will be much serious protest in Japan, probably a few banners here and there and a token mention on NHK news. The Dalai Lama visits here quite often, so it's not that people are unaware of the issues, it's just that the J-police tend to outnumber protestors by about 10 to 1 in these situations.

I think China long ago fell into the trap of believing its own propaganda, just as the USA did when they told themselves Iraq would be a "cake-walk".The protests are a bit of a reality check, their self justifications will see them through unscathed, and enough people will pay lips service to allow the illusion of a success. Must be a shock to be confronted with demonstrators without having the option of rolling out the tanks.

[Moabyte]

well, you certainly wont change the world by doing nothing.

I'm not planning to cause trouble, but if I get the chance, I'd be more than happy to humiliate a fascist.

Mass respect! Can I use that as a sig in some of my other forums?

[andyvj]

i wont call keith alan a comic

[deepvisual]

Mass respect! Can I use that as a sig in some of my other forums?

sure thing

[vanakaru]

I will not watch any broadcasts from olympics and hope many more people do the same. The games are all and only about big media entertainment and they live only by viewer numbers. Nobody involved do care about Tibet or anything else outside the olympics. Olympics is like a perfume that covers even the most stinking shit. I am a person, not a number and I shall not not have any of it. They can not sell me anything along with the games.
And why should anybody care how fast someone runs 100m? What does it mean in life general? What does it has to do with me?

[asterix]

This is an interesting read: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tibetan_sovereignty_debate

Tibetan Buddhism can still be fully practised in Tibetan China, China just dis-allows recognition of some hierarchial states including the Dalai Lama. That is because the Dalai Lama is traditionally the national head of state, which represents a threat to China's complicated claim over the land which has been the law of the land for centuries. I know the History of that entire region (india, china) is historically quite turbulent, and Tibet has in the past enjoyed a pretty smooth ride. The problem is they've never been recognised as a sovereign state and always been submissive to China's right of power which was rarely exercised.

The Dalai Lama is not seeking to become a sovereign nation but to reformulate the historical relationship that fared considerably well as mentioned in the above link.

Perhaps the Chinese are hanging on to protect the water resources that fuel much of the ganges river from the Tibetan mountains. Reminds me of Indonesia's occupation of Timor where the surrounding gas fields are worth big $$, although that was some real blood thirsty stuff. Interestingly, the indonesian government wanted a good international reputation and opted for a Timorise referendum allowing them to vote for their right of sovereignity. Of course they sent in militias to help them vote the 'right' way, and Im sure you've heard of the blood thirsty period that ensued. Still, the timorise are now a free people.

[deepvisual]

This is an interesting read: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tibetan_sovereignty_debate
Tibetan Buddhism can still be fully practised in Tibetan China,
this is of course, nonsense.
Tibetan monks are often forced to denounce the Dalai Lama.
and that's the trouble with wikipedia, its totally open to abuse by vested interests.

[vjpixylight]

Perhaps the Chinese are hanging on to protect the water resources that fuel much of the ganges river from the Tibetan mountains. Reminds me of Indonesia's occupation of Timor where the surrounding gas fields are worth big $$, although that was some real blood thirsty stuff. Interestingly, the indonesian government wanted a good international reputation and opted for a Timorise referendum allowing them to vote for their right of sovereignity. Of course they sent in militias to help them vote the 'right' way, and Im sure you've heard of the blood thirsty period that ensued. Still, the timorise are now a free people.

While China may have it's reasons for wanting control of Tibet, the Ganges (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ganges) is certainly not one of them, as it has nothing to do with Tibet:)

[asterix]

this is of course, nonsense.
Tibetan monks are often forced to denounce the Dalai Lama.
and that's the trouble with wikipedia, its totally open to abuse by vested interests.

Yes but that is mentioned in there - as I mentioned.

[asterix]

While China may have it's reasons for wanting control of Tibet, the Ganges (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ganges) is certainly not one of them, as it has nothing to do with Tibet:)


No, Mt Kailash is one of the major sources of water that feeds the ganges in actual fact. A water source of this magnitude will be one of the most valuable natural assets in the region. Our region in Northern Australia has huge rainfalls and major investment firms are paying stupid money for land here because of the water resources - which is the gold and oil of the future.

Edited to add: Further reading (http://www.earth-policy.org/Updates/2008/Update71.htm)

[vjpixylight]

I certainly wouldn't dispute that that the melting glaciers isn't a big problem for both China and India, but as you can see, most of the water flow coming off the Tibetan plateau already flows into China. China's occupation of Tibet won't change that, and the occupation has little to do with the Ganges
I think you probably ment to say the BRAHMAPUTRA river which does merge with the Ganges later on within Bangladesh. (the Ganges Source: Gangotri glacier, Himalayas)
If China wants to preserve their rapidly decreasing glacial water supply, they have to look at more dams to produce hydro-electric power(within China proper) and forget about using their vast reserves of coal.
http://japanfocus.org/images/UserFiles/Image/2458.chellaney.chi.ind.water/tibet.w.chi.rivers.jpg

[Donnie Darko]

http://www.woostercollective.com/londonsh.jpg

[studebaker]

The Himalayas provide a tactical advantage in terms of national borders. An invading army would have a hell of a time invading china from the south west. (This was the original reason behind the invasion of Tibet in the 20th century, when the british were a stronger power in India etc.) The himalayas provided a natural barrier between south asia and the lands to the north, Tibet, China. China's western borders are the Pamir mountains, equally difficult to cross, and to the north west is a desert and another moutain range. They've got themselves quite well protected with geographical barriers.

[vjpixylight]

yea, i could see that occupying Tibet as a big strategic advantage in those
terms Stud, much more than the control of water resources, tho that is a plus as well..

[deepvisual]

yea, i could see that occupying Tibet as a big strategic advantage in those
terms Stud, much more than the control of water resources, tho that is a plus as well..

Tibet to China is what America was to the settlers..
manifest destiny - marxist style.

[vjpixylight]

might as well face the facts, sad as they are, that China will hold on to Tibet no matter what is done from the outside world. Having such a strategic defense against invasion is something any country(including the US or UK) would simply not let go..

[deepvisual]

yeah but thats the point.
no one is asking them to let go.
just be reasonable.
stop the torture
stop the oppression
allow meaningful autonomy.

[vjpixylight]

definately, something that may, or may not happen, depending on how the world deals with them...