copyright case study [Archive]

SteveG

21st August 2007, 12:04 AM

Thanks for that Oli.

The promoter had the disc as I was due to perform a combined night with Ultra+ and Renaisence.

The disc in questiion had been burned by me for use by me on the night. It had material from many sources, my own material and purchased, and was not due to be left in the club.

A copy of the work was sent to the Promoter and Renaisence for viewing. Between sending these discs I was offered the Glastonbury gig and therefore left the discs with the promoter totally forgetting about them. By stating "commisioned" you insinuate I recieved payment for this disc...No money exchanged hands for this disc and I now intend retrieving it from the promoter.

I do not sell any visuals appart from material I have produced myself and that mainly only CG8 generic logo work.

On this disc also there is visuals sampled and re-mixed with the permission of Renaisence which are VJ Eyeborgs I believe. As the Sander K night was also Renaisence I can only imagine the promoter thought he could use it with little harm done.

When VJ'ing I do not tell the promoters when, where and who I buy my material from if using purchased material so therfore of course the promoter would say I made the disc.

What you have done here Oli is a crap attempt at puting someone down on a public forum. This could have easily been explained by PM, email or I do believe you have my Mbl No.

I'm sure the community will give it's verdict. Once again thanks Oli.

RickRobiN

21st August 2007, 03:11 AM

What you have done here Oli is a crap attempt at puting someone down on a public forum

I would sue every "shitty" vj for this. Stealing from colleagues is not okay, So please don't start about you are a verdict. cause you are

(there is a line between sampling during a gig or selling/making content with someone else work, never cross that thin line)

deepvisual

21st August 2007, 07:31 AM

hmm.

If I sold my content through a distributor, I'd expect people to use it..

Stealing from colleagues is not okay
how can you steal something you have already paid for??

sleepytom

21st August 2007, 08:18 AM

I'd always assumed that the stuff VJ Anyone released came with a license to allow public performance and re-editing of the work into new forms.

Is this not the case? If not can Anyone clarify what the purpose of the disk is? is it just intended for home viewing? or ???

SteveG

21st August 2007, 08:29 AM

I would sue every "shitty" vj for this. Stealing from colleagues is not okay, So please don't start about you are a verdict. cause you are

(there is a line between sampling during a gig or selling/making content with someone else work, never cross that thin line)

As Deepvisual has mentioned the content in question is sold for re-mixing by VJ's.

I refuse to be drawn into replying any further to members replies to this unprofessional statement and accusation by VJ Anyone, and any other VJ who decides to comment or jump on the bandwagon, as I have done nothing wrong deliberately.

I obviously made a mistake leaving a disc with a promoter who has used it on this occassion as it contained his event logo. I have emailed the promoter to have the disc returned. Should the promoter decide to comment on this forum that would be his decision. I would have apologised immediatly and seen to retrieving the disc if VJ Anyone had informed me privately of this. He has chosen not to but to make accusations in public, why? I can only guess.

No content was sold and can supply anyone who disbelieves me a list of promoters and DJ's I have supplied to where all content can be checked. I can also give a large list of promoters who have requested I make discs for them and I have declined.

I have email'd VJ Anyone requesting he reads my reply and contact the promoter for clarification. His reply to my mail was not very professional.

A few years ago I dropped a disc in a club to find it being played months later in an ajoining bar. I found this out myself and demanded the disc be returned. Would I have been accused of theft on a public forum then also.

Eclectic Method sample, they had all their discs stolen, if played would they have been accused of theft in that situation.

cat

21st August 2007, 10:05 AM

From the way I read the licence on the mix mash site, it sounded like you needed to seek permission to use in a venue, and they point you to a couple of bodies I've never heard of to get it...
Bit like PRS
But I may be wrong, I'm sure Oli and clarify!

deepvisual

21st August 2007, 10:22 AM

from mixmash terms and conditions..

Q: Are MixMash DVDs legal?
A: MixMash DVDs are fully legal and we have all the necessary licences for the licensing and dubbing of the music videos. However, it is the responsibility of the user to obtain the necessary licence to play our DVDs in public - look under Links for your local society

By entering into these terms and conditions and paying the purchase price, you will be entitled to use the physical property in the Goods. This right of use is non-transferable, and is subject to you obtaining the relevant licenses for the public performance of the Goods and the works contained thereon. Legal title in the Goods shall remain the property of MixMash.

sleepytom

21st August 2007, 10:33 AM

So they are totally worthless then.

which begs the question why is VJ Anyone marketing his disks to VJs if they are not licensed for VJ use? How can i get a performance license for "Night Lights"?

Anyone

21st August 2007, 10:45 AM

thanks Deep for summing it up so nicely...:up:

sleepytom

21st August 2007, 10:51 AM

But i cannot get a license to use VJ Anyones disks via the VPL as the VPL is a licensing scheme for venues not for artists themselves.

please stop avoiding the issue Anyone and tell us what you actually expect VJs who have paid ?25 for your content to do.

SilentEclipse

21st August 2007, 11:07 AM

The DVD's appear to be fine to use for live public performance, but only if the venue has the relavent VPL licence.

'This right of use is non-transferable' meaning that you cannot pass off the work as your own or assume rights from a recorded re-edit.

From what I can gather Steve neither transferred the rights to the promoter or assummed ownership of the re-edit.

deepvisual

21st August 2007, 11:18 AM

Oli..

i think it would help if you clarified exactly what you think SteveG did that was wrong..

it isnt obvious from what you have said, that he blatantly passed off your work as his.
neither is it clear from the licensing agreement that he wasn't allowed to remix it with a logo.

isn't this all just a simple misunderstanding that could have been resolved very easily.

RickRobiN

21st August 2007, 12:35 PM

Maybe i am wrong, but for example.
a dj can buy a record and play it/mix it/etc
But he can't sell/make a new version with some dubbed lyrics on top of it...

I refuse to be drawn into replying any further to members replies to this unprofessional statement and accusation
My reaction was maybe to rude a, but I just don't like my "children" to be raped by lazy vj'z/artists what sometimes happened. Makes me really angry. That's why I replied.

Rovastar

21st August 2007, 12:41 PM

No real time to reply to this atm.

I assumed the same as Tom that you can use you stuff for VJ use however looking at the site it seem not the case (it is not very clear tbh).

I have met both of you and I do not believe that Steve would do knowing do anything wrong/illegal/unethical with your work Oli.

I think the VJ community have made assumptions about (your) content on MixMash and it appears they are wrong. I understand why these licenses are in place (I imagine mainly for the big bands/huge record labels they have on-board - you are paying for the media the license is a separate issue similar to music in venues) but it does seriously limit what you can do with them in a VJ environment. They are next to useless really.

Oli, I suggest you look at the policies that you have signed up for with MixMash and consider if they are really useful to most VJs (or even DJs). Is this what you were intending it goes against the spirit of the VJs mixing others content.

Obviously reselling (or even giving away free (re-distribution) - makes no difference legally really just the severity of the punishment) and passing the work off as your own is wrong.

Steve,

Check the licenses. Really the content on MixMash is covered via the VPL and, no doubt, all sorts of other licensing works. Oli work on there is on the same tier as the EMI/SonyBMG/WB videos on there. I am sure you would not have done the same with one of their music videos.

I think the whole thing is a mis-understanding but I can understand both sides ? I too would be fuming if I thought a well known VJ here was using my work an passing it off and I thought selling it.

Run out of time more later

SteveG

21st August 2007, 12:54 PM

Thanks for taking the time Rovastar.

vjrei

21st August 2007, 02:43 PM

Hi All...

on Saturday I performed at Custard Factory with SK,
and before my set was a DVD on a loop.

The DVD in question figured the integral 30 minute sequence
of my 'Nites Lites' DVD, with the promoter's logo spinning on top.

enquiring about this to the promoter
he proudly said SteveG was commissioned to do this wonderful piece

I didnt have the courage to break the promotor's heart,
but now that I've named and shamed,

I leave to this community the duty to give its verdict...

There are two sided of this story:

1. You sold your content but you should specify it's terms of use. Just like when you rent or buy a movie "is for your own use". And that should be labeled so there is not free interpretation.

2. If any of that was clarified there is nothing to be done there, the one who bought it can do what ever he wants with it. Is not ethical but is not ilegal.

What you can do is to have your signature here and there on the video. If the user what to edit it that is ok.

For example, I bought the Exotic Robotics DVD. I was all exited about it because it came with Bionic Dots visuals. When I was watching, it has all the VJs signatures on top on a corner but big! I was so upset, I wrote them an email telling them:

I bought a DVD, why I have to look at your logos? I bought your content, not your demo reel.

They said that many people steal their footage and it takes long hours to create it etc, etc....

All right, but I do not see any logo on the example footage and YOU ARE SELLING IT!!!!!!!

We went back and forth and what ever their situation is, if you are selling footage YOU ARE GIVING IT AWAY.

So, I have this DVD barely worth for something other than go over terms of usage.

In conclusion, everything depends on what terms of usage you wrote. The only way around I see is to use your logo but very artistically, I wouldn't mine to use the Exotic Robotics logos if they look good, the only people who used their logo in an artistic way was Bionic Dots btw.

My 2 cents.

R.

bopa

21st August 2007, 05:16 PM

I have also released a VJ mix with Mixmash called Retro Chic. The license for a VJ buying this DVD is a public performance licence for an audience up to 2000 people. The licence doesn't allow you as a consumer to rip, record or reedit the material. The material should stay on the disc, but can be remixed live by a VJ.

dontregister

22nd August 2007, 07:18 AM

There are different types of licences concerning copyrights. It's not just sold and basta ! No way. Normally in a contract you specify at the duration of the cession, the territorial use, the destination use and the ability to modify your work.
There is also a moral right given to the artist who can forbid the use of his work upon certain circomstances (ex : your images used in a neo nazi convention). But that's a right that (i believe) only exist in France.

.DR.

Anyone

22nd August 2007, 07:39 AM

You sold your content but you should specify it's terms of use.

These are specified on the DVD sleeve,
as Bopa and Deep have explained in their posts

deepvisual

22nd August 2007, 08:58 AM

These are specified on the DVD sleeve,
as Bopa and Deep have explained in their posts

perhaps you are unware of this oli, but you can download these clips for free from djsounds.com (http://www.djsounds.com/category/dvj-loops/) without once encountering any licence agreement whatsoever. ( I just did this)

it's possible that someone has made a boo boo and forgotten to include the licence, but in light of this, it seems you haven't really got much to complain about with regard to how other people use your footage if they can download it for free with no restrictions...

moral of the story:
don't put your footage on the net.
(i did it once and sure enough, someone was selling it a few weeks later...)

Yes, they’re hot and they’re here – check out the first installment of DVJ loops from MixMash. The dynamic DVD label is offering no less than 10 FREE loops from VJ Anyone’s acclaimed Nite Lites DVD, a project that was discussed in Oli’s last interview. Click on for more details and start downloading

mixmash

22nd August 2007, 10:12 AM

sleepytom

22nd August 2007, 10:34 AM

Thanks Mark

I think it is very important to specify clearly exactly what can be done with DVDs from mixmash, I'm sure your aware that most venues that VJs play in are not VPL members and that even in VPL venues many common VJ techniques constitute a breaking of the license agreement (for example i believe the VPL scheme doesn't cover remixing of the music videos or re-editing / compositing of music videos into video mashups).

With the VJ footage disks you supply it is extra important to be clear about the license terms BEFORE purchase. If i were buying VJ footage I would expect that the performance rights were included, I would also expect to have a limited right to reformat the footage so it is suitable for use in my playback system. If this is not the case then I would expect a clear explanation of the exact terms of the license before I had spent my money.

I think that Oli and Bopa are being slightly stupid with their attitudes and licensing here - the market for silent visuals DVDs licensed for playback from the original disk only is totally insignificant when compared to the market for general VJ footage released on a more normal stock footage type of license. The way in which Oli has promoted graph beats and night life in the past has clearly been aimed at VJs and as such he should of been much much clearer if he was only intending the footage be played back from its original disk rather than used in VJ software.

The thing that this thread shows more than anything else is that licensing of clips is a very tricky business. Without absolute clarity from before purchase to delivery of the disks it is too easy for confusion to set in and for people to end up feeling resentful. In the example of Anyone vs SteveG I suspect that Steve simply didn't know that the footage he had paid for could not be used in the manor he ended up using it in. No doubt he would not of used it in this way had the license been clearer. Now both parties feel resentful - Anyone thinks his work has been stolen and Steve thinks he's been ripped off as he paid for footage that he can't use in the way he had assumed was ok. This could all of been avoided with a clear and consise explanation of the terms of license at point of sale.

Anyone

22nd August 2007, 12:13 PM

Ok Steve and I have settled our differences out via private email
which goes to show that happy ends are possible, tx SG

ST got bad breath BTW

unjulation

22nd August 2007, 12:22 PM

:grouphug:

Anyone

22nd August 2007, 12:23 PM

perhaps you are unware of this oli, but you can download these clips for free

Did you really think that? wow...
wait for Mark Mixmash's response, you'll get the whole answer you're looking for

SteveG

22nd August 2007, 12:24 PM

As I have said in my initial reply and in our email communications Oli, I regret the disc being left with the promoter. Again, I would stress to all that no financial or otherwise gains were made from the happening. I have been a regular and resident VJ with this night for almost 2 years and no further gigs were promised or things of this nature. The promoter has now destroyed the disc and I have thanked him for doing so.

As you are well aware of how this thread can be viewed by those who do not know me I would appreciate it's removal.

As well as warnings on licensing laws perhaps we should also include some on Libel and Defamation of character.

Thanks Oli.

deepvisual

22nd August 2007, 12:27 PM

good news.

steve is not even slightly dodgy and oli deserves to have the content he provides treated correctly and with respect.

and they all lived happily ever after.
Ahhh

deepvisual

22nd August 2007, 12:29 PM

Did you really think that? wow...
wait for Mark Mixmash's response, you'll get the whole answer you're looking for

well,
I downloaded them and there was absolutely no reference to terms of use on the site or with the content.

bit late shutting the stable door after the horse has gone..

I'm no solicitor, but at a guess, if you put content up on the web, with no terms of use included, you wouldn't get very far in court.

evomedia

22nd August 2007, 12:40 PM

Must say this was a real shocker, I'm a firm copyright supporter, and I can understand the disc not being open for copying, but what is the point of Mixmash DVD's which are entirely designed for DJ's to use on DVJ decks, that is their market they are not really home products. Its not even VJ specific. Their discs are sold on the DJ shops, even their logo has the strapline on the .nl site that says the professionals DVJ choice, the .com says the pro VJ's choice...um whats the point if pro's can't play them???????

I can see that they do state they are not convered for live performance, but honestly if your selling products to DJ's and VJ's they must include public performance. Else I see zero reason to pay money as a VJ or a DJ. You still have illegal content.

Anyone, what will you charge if I asked for public performance rights for your work?

I feel this is essentially just paying money for someones showreel now. Mixmash... do not advertise your products as the professional choice for VJ's or DVJ users if they cannot use them live, that makes them worthless for any professional. You may as well change your strapline to the only choice for dj's and vj's who only play at home.

Who wants to sit through these at home, I may as well just stick on MTV dance, the quality of video is better. Even putting on a maximum audience of 2000 is beyond me, why 2000? that just mean I can play it nearly every club except one or 2, so whats the point, I dont know if the crowd will be 2000 + without checking ticket sales throughout the night, if it tops that I what have to switch it off?

Rovastar

22nd August 2007, 02:03 PM

Ok Steve and I have settled our differences out via private email
which goes to show that happy ends are possible, tx SG

I am glad this situation has been resolved now. About the wider issue of what you can/cannot be done with the footage I'll post later about.

Anyone

22nd August 2007, 02:38 PM

As you are well aware of how this thread can be viewed by those who do not know me I would appreciate it's removal.

I dont have the power to do that Steve, but will ok this thread's removal
if VJF tops agree... :)

SteveG

22nd August 2007, 02:40 PM

Many thanks and I would appreciate it.

Rovastar

22nd August 2007, 03:10 PM

Hi Everybody,

After reading this thread I feel compelled to reply as I think there is a lot of misunderstanding surrounding the usage of MixMash Visuals DVDs. However, some interesting issues have been raised and I think these need to be clarified. Unfortunately I don't have the time to do this today as I'm not in the office but will provide some definitive answers tomorrow.

Thanks,

Mark

Hi Mark,

Glad you can join us here. In fact I was going to email you for clarification in general about the DVDs on MixMash.

A detailed explanation from you would be useful. I imagine the large record labels have forced you hand with much of it and you are merely redistributors of media containing others copyrighted footage (I imagine you have no copyrights to any of the stuff on MixMash) and you let others sort out the complex world of licensing separately and forward people onto the regional equivalents of VPL for other countries.

As SleepyTom and others have pointed out the VPL issue is confusing. I have no idea how lucrative the VPL licenses are/will be (get payment once a year) for VJs with content on them. VPL licenses are not common like the PRS music ones for venues.

I would suggest you clarify on your site the terms too. Professional VJs is mentioned on your site but this does not work well with the VPL whereas DJ s /PRS mode does work well. The infrastructure is not in place yet.

Sadly as it stands I would not be recommending MixMash to people visiting these forums - in fact I will feel it important to state the problems of the MixMash content if they are mentioned here as they are not very VJ friendly.

Most of the content relevant to most VJs out there is not the big record label music video stuff but more stuff like VJ Anyones work I feel a different model could be used for thee as you don?t have as much redtape to deal with and you can communicate directly with the artists in question.

well,
I downloaded them and there was absolutely no reference to terms of use on the site or with the content.

bit late shutting the stable door after the horse has gone..

I'm no solicitor, but at a guess, if you put content up on the web, with no terms of use included, you wouldn't get very far in court.

IANAL but for me you still own the copyright of the work ?this does not change. I think it would be very difficult to prove legally that the downloader owns the copyright on the work - which in a roundabout way is what you are implying.

Only if you own the copyright on the work or have explicit license to can you change it.

Even with the apparent mitigation of ?it is on the web it is ok to use? will not hold up.

Copyright still works where you have to give explicit licenses to use the content. You will always own it but you have to license it out for other usage like public performance or resale or broadcast. Hence organisations like creative commons that want you to include a license with their content for sharing. This is how I understand it anyway.

Think of it like this - would you use these clips for broadcast work or for resale on a DVD?

Answering this question honestly often gives you something like the correct legal answer or at least points you in the right direction.

What if someone else posted it up on the web without you knowledge? Can you never claim the rights for you work.

It could be argued that it?s common practice among the VJ community to remix clips/loops and it was presumed that for example it could be played out but that too is a shaky defence. Lack of clarity of the legal licensing position might help in some cases and really they should have included a readme or similar text file in the zip file containing these clips explaining the licensing situation. There is bad planning from the PR people really.

There is reference to the MixMash on the page too.

deepvisual

22nd August 2007, 06:49 PM

I think it would be very difficult to prove legally that the downloader owns the copyright on the work - which in a roundabout way is what you are implying..

hmm..
I would have argued that if the copyright owner is putting clips on a server without any documentation, clips that are clearly indicated as being free for use by DVJs who are openly invited to download them, then that is exactly what you will get. Them being downloaded and used by DVJs - however they wish.
sure technically they don't own the copyright, but they are not legally bound by any restriction on their use as they never entered into any binding agreement.

Anyone

22nd August 2007, 06:58 PM

you could argue the opposite, taking for granted that
if nothing is said than the usual laws apply

deepvisual

22nd August 2007, 07:09 PM

I know what judge judy would say...

you give something away. it isn't yours anymore.
you don't get to add conditions after the fact.

anyway, I think the boys at mixmash need to have a look at this as things seem a little sloppy at the moment with regard to this issue.
its already lead to a lot of confusion, which is never a good thing.

its great that Vjs can sell their content, and its great that others can buy it.
just needs to be more straight forwards and transparent so everyone knows what they are getting into.

Anyone

22nd August 2007, 09:02 PM

oh no! he pulled the Judy card!

in the meantime Steve and I have reached an amicable understanding
which was my main objective, which, again, I am grateful for.

.nuf

disassembler

23rd August 2007, 02:29 PM

Mad samplers get honored as top vj's where as those not listed get attacked.

I'm seeing a contradiction.

DJ magazine breeds the use of ANYONE's (both the noun and the person) content.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHA

Please do not delete this thread.

It's a mark in the history of the art.

No one is safe. It's SOOO obvious that if you put something out in the public it WILL get sampled. Anyone you should know this better than, well, Anyone. Especially considering you've hosted plenty of events that benefit from others performing copyrighted material.

http://www.cartoonstock.com/lowres/mly0886l.jpg

mixmash

23rd August 2007, 04:47 PM

Hi Everybody,

I'm sorry that I haven't had a chance to clarify the situation today but will do so tomorrow - promise.

I would just like to say a lot of you have got the wrong end of the stick completely. The VPL (and it's sister organisations around Europe) only control the rights to Music Videos so they have no bearing on this discussion, which is about Visuals. There is no licensing body for Visuals (a business idea perhaps?) and that's why discussions like this are important. It is up to the individual or company to assign rights and usages along with the purchase of the product, which I admit MixMash haven't been clear about so I will attempt to make it clear tomorrow through this thread and then via the T&Cs on our website. Each and every person within this community hopefully knows what the boundaries are and if anyone oversteps the mark they are told so, which is fantastic. However, know what you're talking about before you throw in your sixpence.

Have a great evening.

Cheers,

Mark

vjrei

28th August 2007, 03:57 AM

Every time I read the title of this thread I get flashbacks from school. When the quiz is gonna be?

Sorry, late hours around here, time to go to bed.

john01

28th August 2007, 06:17 AM

Every time I read the title of this thread I get flashbacks from school. When the quiz is gonna be?

Sorry, late hours around here, time to go to bed.

That is funny.

I'm always surprised that people use other people's material. For me the whole point of VJ-ing is to inflict my bad taste on the public, not someone else's.

By the way, I think the promoter just misunderstood the situation, promoters like name value, they don't really care about content.

Nite Lites (http://www.nite-lites.com/framesetnite.htm)

Bokonon

28th August 2007, 02:42 PM

MoRpH

29th August 2007, 03:43 AM

I to would still like to hear MixMash's explaination.

deepvisual

7th September 2007, 06:06 PM

Hi Everybody,

I'm sorry that I haven't had a chance to clarify the situation today but will do so tomorrow - promise.

Cheers,

Mark

that was 12 days ago...

Bokonon

13th September 2007, 08:09 AM

that was 12 days ago...

18 Days and counting...

MoRpH

13th September 2007, 08:48 AM

Heres hoping we actually get an answer.

vdmoKstaTi

16th September 2007, 02:02 AM

I wouldn't bring this topic into the public in the first place!
could have been seddled between Anyone and SteveG without 4 pages of posts.

MoRpH

16th September 2007, 02:19 AM

The point is that there is defaintely an issue here about the live use of the DVDs and the rights associated, which Mixmash *should* have cleared up by now.... I don't own any of their product and with effort like this shown to ppl who have purchased it I'm glad I don't.

hookturn

16th September 2007, 03:05 AM

Ive just picked up on his thread.

I think what Anyone has done is a completely shitty thing to do naming and shaming Steve in a public forum.
Especially someone that is involved with the same product suppliers as you.

Also the fact that you have raised this "issue" on a public forum rather than putting it in an email to Steve has brought down the rain of copyright shiteness now on most vjs who purchase and download content.
Plus it shows you in a bit of a bad light I feel.

What does this mean for the likes of companies like Mixmash? Could it mean the end of great content dvds for us to use on our dvj's?

Most vj's out there, are more than happy to supply visuals for free to vj's, take AR for example. Never seems a problem if we use their stuff in the public domain.

Anyone whats the point of selling your dvds for vjs and then not letting them use them in a public place? Seems very egotistical to me.

What about all the loops you load up to djsounds? Are those under the same jurisdiction as your dvds?

I doubt Ill be downloading any of your work again for the fear of copyright infringement. Even if Im based In NZ far away from prying eyes.

john01

16th September 2007, 09:53 AM

Just so long as Cliff Richard keeps getting his performance rights on Bachelor Boy until his dying day everything will be fine.

Rovastar

16th September 2007, 10:48 AM

brought down the rain of copyright shiteness now on most vjs who purchase and download content.

Protecting someones copyright is their right. Lets not dwell too much on how it was done the situation has been resolved now.

Really this thread is here now for the mixmash issue.

At the moment we do not know what licenses says and persoanlly I cannot at this stage recommend any mixmash DVDs.....but I have just sent an email to mark at mixmash so maybe we will get a reply soon.

SteveG

16th September 2007, 11:59 AM

Mark and the team at Mixmash (not a huge team) have been extremely busy with the preparation and execution of the Plasa show as well as going on a short break just as this thread appeared. He is well aware that the questions asked require answering which he will do. Some work has been created here and I'm sure all the questions will be answered as soon as possible.

Anyone

16th September 2007, 12:10 PM

I was about to say the same thing as Steve.
pls wait til the end of Plasa and you will get more feedback from Mixmash
where it is due.

to reiterate Steve and I have come to an amicable agreement,
so no need to throw anybody in the mud here, it will not stick.

Rovastar

16th September 2007, 01:48 PM

Ok no problem. It is just natural to assume that he has forgotten with several reminders over the past 3-4 weeks.

We wait and see. It still surprises me that the license argeement is not open and visable on the website before purchase. As it is I will recommend people do not use/buy Mixmash products.

SteveG

16th September 2007, 02:18 PM

Come on John...that's a bit harsh. The Mixmash discs are a great product particularly for those who use them in the correct locations. Most of the guys using them are on the mobile circuit where the venues are covered by the venues holding a VPL. I feel very guilty over leaving the disc outlined at the begining of this thread as it had little to do with the majority of the Mixmash Label.

As a VJ I mix content the same as everyone else and I dont purchase discs to use clean in playback only, therefore unfortunately I wont be using VJ Anyone's material again and nor can I recommend it to VJ's obviously.

I'm sure the majority of guys buying the Mixmash visuals products are also mainly for use in venues holding a VPL and for clean straight playback whilst playing there tracks. I have quite a few of the visual discs as I have performed and supported Mixmash on several mobile DJ shows and exhibitions. A case full of visuals DVD's which obviously I'm now being more careful with as to what I decide to use and dont ;)

Anyone

16th September 2007, 03:00 PM

I wont be using VJ Anyone's material again and nor can I recommend it to VJ's.

Whatever Steve, I thought we were over this.

read again the very first post:
I found my material on a DVD from a third party, your client,
who said the material was yours,
either you said it or you allowed them to think that,
whatever disclaimer is written here will not make this right.

and I'm the bad guy for standing up for this ? come on :lol:

Rovastar

16th September 2007, 04:13 PM

Let's just chill. Currently we as VJs don't know the full situation regarding licensing. If all Mixmash DVD are only for VPL venues and have other restrictions then they are next to useless for must VJs hence why I said I could not recommend them.

How can any VJ recommend them when the license usage is in question and is not clear?

We await more offical means of confirmation.

bryandod

16th September 2007, 04:52 PM

If all Mixmash DVD are only for VPL venues and have other restrictions then they are next to useless for must VJs hence why I said I could not recommend them.

Very true.

as a VJ I mix content the same as everyone else and I dont purchase discs to use clean in playback only, therefore unfortunately I wont be using VJ Anyone's material again and nor can I recommend it to VJ's obviously.

I feel the same way. I have bought several sets of content from VJ Anyone, all of which were marketed toward VJs, which I can only assume meant they are for mixing. Is the footage that VJ anyone sells through the resolume site licensed for VJ use? If not, what the f--k am I suppose to do with it. The lightrhythm dvd I purchased doesn't even have its own sound track. What is the intended purpose of this dvd? Do you think people want to watch this in their living room, silently? Seems like it is only useful for VJs to mix with. Oh well, I guess I will not purchase any more of VJ Anyone's content unless this issue gets resolved.

I could easily remake most of the footage that I have bought from VJ Anyone that would look exactly the same, but would not infringe on his copyright at all. I purchase the footage to save time. We are all using very similar software to make very similar footage. Fighting over copyrights of out of focus city lights seems very absurd to me. By the time I'm done mixing up VJ Anyone's footage, It is something completely new. I'd love to watch a judge try to deal with this.

COPYRIGHT LAWS SHOULD NOT HINDER CREATIVITY.

USE

16th September 2007, 05:05 PM

i have to say i find it strange that this thread contains a public accusation, a seeming resolution, but no public appology.

i thought those things went together? or have i misunderstood whats gone on here?

SteveG

16th September 2007, 05:39 PM

Whatever Steve, I thought we were over this.

read again the very first post:
I found my material on a DVD from a third party, your client,
who said the material was yours,
either you said it or you allowed them to think that,
whatever disclaimer is written here will not make this right.

and I'm the bad guy for standing up for this ? come on :lol:

I am totally over it. All I have pointed out is that now knowing the full license agreement I cannot use or recommend your DVD's to VJ's. You also have stated they are not for mixing here. A DVD for playback in bars etc yes but not for VJ's. I was merely pointing out that the Mixmash discs are good for use in the right venues.

You are well aware of the how the disc came to be in the club and wont go over all that again. You accepted my apology and yes it is the end of the matter as far as I'm concerned....although, as USE has pointed out an apology from you also would have been fitting considering the accusation.

MoRpH

16th September 2007, 11:27 PM

Well atleast this should keep the thread interesting til the Mixmash guys get back from Plasa :P

Seriously.... steve & oli, please chill guys you obviously made your peace, lets not wreck it.

Taking everything thats been said into consideration I really don't see the point of mixmash or Anyone marketing their product to VJs if it can't be remixed and layered into a set with other content, I mean thats an integral part of what we do. If they are just for straight playback, then they are fodder for cheapskate bar owners.....

hamageddon

16th September 2007, 11:45 PM

maybe the whole (s)hebang would have been sorted out pretty fast if some guys knew how to use a phone instead of the showoff/down....

i have to say i find it strange that this thread contains a public accusation, a seeming resolution, but no public appology.

i thought those things went together? or have i misunderstood whats gone on here?

Anyone

17th September 2007, 10:33 AM

guys, like all of you I'm waiting for MixMash to make a statement.
I'd rather be careful with any of my comments in the meantime.

evomedia

17th September 2007, 12:00 PM

God I thought this was all over and done with, not being funny but why does it take Mixmash nearly a month to write a statement? Get your act together, until you write a clear explanation this will just keep rolling on.

A swift statement would surely be wise as everyone is obviously confused, it will save alot of misinformation and bad feeling. Especially throughout the VJ community.

I still don't understand why a product aimed at pro VJ's ain't licenced for playout on some discs. So sort it out, and explain our rights...

Obviously the VJ's here are not deemed worthy of keeping as customers if they are prepared to let this slide for this length of time, first rule of business is to keep you customers happy, I see little attempt to conclude this quickly.

deepvisual

17th September 2007, 12:15 PM

why does it take Mixmash nearly a month to write a statement?

too busy???
an educated guess would suggest that the reason why they haven't resolved this is because they can't.

you can't possibly use the same licence for a Boney M video and a set of visuals marketed to VJs for remix in any format ad nauseum.

maybe I'm wrong, but its starting to look like one big legal headache.
and they ain't cheap.

Bokonon

17th September 2007, 12:24 PM

Does anyone know what terms and conditions are printed on the DVD's themselves?

bryandod

17th September 2007, 01:36 PM

Obviously the VJ's here are not deemed worthy of keeping as customers if they are prepared to let this slide for this length of time, first rule of business is to keep you customers happy, I see little attempt to conclude this quickly.

Right. It seems to me like somebody could have responded with something by now. It seems to me like they are just ignoring this forum. Nobody takes 3 weeks to respond to a question on a public forum, no matter how busy.

VJ Anyone,
Since this is your work in question and this company represents you, have you been in touch with mixmasters to find out if they intend on responding to these questions? If I were you, i would get them on the phone and straighten this problem out. (Or at least get them to let people know what is going on) :)

evomedia

17th September 2007, 03:26 PM

Get this...a popup window on Mixmash opens as soon as you visit Mixmash.com saying:

MixMash is licensed by the VPL and our products are for use exclusively in public locations e.g. clubs, bars, shops, etc.
MixMash - the professional's choice.

Um.... whats going on? Why would anyone hunt for Peformance licensing info after that as an opening popup, i dont even recall seeing that popup when I last looked????? Is it new?

In Faq it still says

Q: Does my MixMash DVD come with a Public Performance Licence?
A: No. It is responsibility of the individual purchaser to make sure that the necessary licences are in place to play MixMash DVDs in public locations. On the Links page we have included the relevant governing bodies and their contact details for most European countries.

Talk about contradictions

Just seems insane to not have addressed this issue as soon as it arose, after all 13,000 members are registered to these forums that are potential customers, so a month to respond really is crap lol

If I have 1 customer complaining I get straight on it lol, are 13000 potential customers not worth the effort of a brief statement? We must be their biggest potential market for visual DVD's until more DVJs are sold.

I really did not know the licensing terms for these discs, its all contradictions.

The Q and A makes me laugh

Can I buy MixMash DVD's if I'm not a professional VJ/DJ?
A: No. MixMash DVDs are only available to professional VJ/DJs.

Lol, You can't play them live... and if you intend to just play at home you can't even buy them... Why open the site with a popup saying our products are for use exclusively in public locations e.g. clubs, bars, shops, etc. But stipulate deep in the site it is the responsibility of the user to obtain the necessary licence to play our DVDs in public What a pile of CR*P

As it is I still see Nothing on Mixmash to say you cannot re edit the content, their is zero info when buying about proper copyright terms, I would class VJ's mixing content entiring as re-editing live. Does those terms only appear on the discs when you receive them? If I play them and record my own set I have broken the copyright it seems... Still properly confused even more so with that popup.

I just wont buy any, its a simple way to make sure I dont break terms that make no sense.

Bokonon

17th September 2007, 04:22 PM

The problem with the pop-up is that it doesn't cover visuals DVD's these are a separate entity and not covered by the multi country VPL scheme.

This is something (else) which would be a potential area that would benefit from some kind of effort by a trade body.

Anyone

17th September 2007, 04:34 PM

Talk about contradictions
Dude cant you see the website is in the middle of changes? :sigh:

not being funny but why does it take Mixmash nearly a month to write a statement?

http://www.vjforums.com/showthread.php?t=15234
this thread was written over a year ago :poke:

Last chance reminder:
The thread you are reading now originated from the fact one VJ's content was found on a DVD
this DVD was signed by another VJ and passed on to a client of this other VJ

dont hold your breath hoping any disclaimer will make this act legal
thankfully the said DVD has been destroyed and no further action is needed

the rest is just details and common sense AFAIC :drums:

MoRpH

17th September 2007, 04:58 PM

Oli, its quite clear that you guys have sorted out your stuff, thats great.... however this thread has clearly evolved from that into a general thread about the ambiguity in the Mixmash licencing. Thats what ppl are after an answer about mate, nothing to do with yours and steve's tiff anymore.

Anyone

17th September 2007, 05:11 PM

oh good.

sleepytom

17th September 2007, 05:56 PM

The real issue is the misleading way in which both mixmash and VJ Anyone are marketing their VJ content DVDs to VJs whilst failing to make clear that the price doesn't include suitable licences to allow for regular VJ usage.

I'm not holding my breath for these things to be addressed but it is pretty sad that one of the leading (as in high profile) content suppliers (mixmash) is wiling to make profits on disks without clearly stating the usage rights that the disks come with.

Please address this issue as a matter of urgency and either change the terms and conditions of the licence to allow the content to be used in the context of live visual performance (both in DVD players and VJ software), or stop marketing the disks to VJs and others interested in live visual performance.

Anyone

17th September 2007, 07:53 PM

its quite clear that you guys have sorted out your stuff, thats great.... however this thread has clearly evolved from that into a general thread about the ambiguity in the Mixmash licencing.

With this in mind, I dont need to post here anymore,
check the mixmash website in a few days for the license statement

mixmash

18th September 2007, 11:11 AM

Hi All,

Sorry for the delay in getting this sorted.

The Terms & Conditions for the Visuals DVDs have been added to our website. Please go to www.mixmash.com to view them.

Thanks,

Mark

evomedia

18th September 2007, 11:23 AM

Cool, thanks Mark, makes much more sense now.

MoRpH

18th September 2007, 11:25 AM

For those that couldn't be arsed going hunting for it off a tiny link @ the bottom of the page and buried in a PDF.

Terms and Conditions Relating Particularly to Visuals DVDs
? The copyright in the Visuals content is owned by MixMash and/or the Artist
? MixMash and/or the Artist license the Visuals content (whether purchased or received free of charge from a legal
source) for Local/Live public performance
? This excludes a live performance whereby the Visuals are sequenced to artists/bands/or in performances whereby the
content becomes an integral part of the show
? Visuals content may not be used for film, television or Internet broadcast unless express permission is granted by
MixMash and/or the Artist
? Visuals content may not be resold or passed off

Hmmmm all sounds fairly reasonable to me...... so they can be used by VJs for live shows after all ;) Just don;t go making any of it "feature" content with an artist/band I guess....