Firewire Out

[complexvisuals]

I poster this last week but never got to see the reply cos of the crash (pity)

I was wondering if any VJ programs allow Firewire out. I know this has been discussed about Firewire-In.

Cheers

Cian

[Awax]

Mine will :)
I don't know about others.


Awx

[MoRpH]

Hmmm I think this has been discussed on the eyecandy lis but here goes.

Due to the compressed nature of firewire DV it maybe a bit much to expect of current PCs to compress to DV out as well as take live video input/mix-layer multiple clips/do FX in real time.... think about it there is only so much cycles to go around.

[Awax]

Yeah, I know it hard to do in RT while doing other stuff ... but you have PCI card doing it live so you just have to hook up to this card and let it do the job.

My aim is to use the most of your hw.

Anyway, I agree it is very hard and costly to implement without specific hw and relation with hw isn't that easy.

[MoRpH]

PCI card.... *choke* you can't use a PCI card on a laptop.

[ender]

A PCI firewire doesn?t actual process any video, it merely allows data to be moved over the firewire bus, it?s more like a network card in that respect. You can get cards like Canopus DV Storm that have a hardware DV encoder on them, but it doesn?t support the standard windows video architectures so no VJ software will work with it anyway.

[Awax]

To MorpH :
Laptop ... well, I personnaly use custom build PC in very small cases or rackmount cases. I have a very convenient flightcase with small monitor/PC/trackball/keyboard/scan convertor with all connection conveniently accessible (power, sound in (professional balanced connection), TV in/out (SVideo&BNC), VGA out, USB, Net). But I've worked so far in very big parties (2k to 9k people) so place is not an issue.

To Ender :
I wasn't talking about basic FireWire card but VideoDe/Compression card like MatroxRT2000 or the Canopus DV. I know much of those cards are not VFW or DirectShow compliant but sometimes, you could find a way to get in, like hacking its drivers or just contacting the company and making a agreement with them (*dream? I have seen Creative dev team replying to a question about accessing 3D sound card channel directly, not thru DS3D*).

Sorry but keep in mind I actually dev a VJ soft right now and what I wanted to say is that *in theory*, you could (and I'd like to).

[MoRpH]

Cool Awax, good to hear your thinking about the future...... I hope the future is laptops with with fullscreen (pref part of screen zoomed) video out over firewire, but i'm not holding my breath.

Personally I find laptops the best for portablity (i'm onto my second and was the first VJ insyd using one, rather than tape or lugging a desktop) no mater how small the rackmount/etc is.... but I guess its horses for courses.....

My entire rig fits on 50cmx50cm table (of course the CVI rack is underneath in it road case :) ) and i'm happy with that... but as you can see from my FX hardware thread I would like to remove that too. :)

[Awax]

Yeah, the Pioneer box is definitely a must have for DJ/performance FX. But building things in hardware is really costly and rather limited (even if the basic box is wonderfull, it can make only the effects inside and can rarely evolve).

Fours years ago, I started a VJ club in my engineering school. A older club in another school was using both classic and computer sources but was mixing in hard (MX50). What I wanted to do was starting directly with the next step : full software. In software, just write a new FX dll and you have it : no limitation and as I am a software engineer, low cost cos it would e home made software. But fours years ago, it required a lot of CPU just to read a MPEG clip. So I started writing a distibuted app : two box to decompress 2 MPEG, send it in 100 Mbps and a third to mix. It took me one full year with a friend to build such a soft. By that time, CPU power increase allowed to do everything on the same box ...

Now I can do anything in one (rather big:p) box, I think full soft is the key, even if it should take advantage of hw feature (3D accelaration, hw command (Surface1 ...), hw video in/out, ...).
Soory for the looooooooooooong post but I think that you got my point. I do agree HW is cool but things are moving to fast (oldies like CVI are REALLY cool too).

[MoRpH]

"rather limited"

hahaha spoken like a true software developer :p

yes they can be costly but they can definately be a part of evolution, while maybe not changing themselves you can find amazing new ways of combining different hardware or even working with existing hardware (I still don't feel like I have explored 20% of what the CVI can do) and then there is your evolution as a performer/artist where certain hardware lets you shift into a different paradigm and look @ new things, then when you have changed coming back and appraoching an old piece of gear but with a new mind set and skills can be an amazing experience.

Hmmmm as I have gone through this numuous times over my years as a VJ I think I may actually write an article on vjcentral about it. I think ppl write hardware off far too easily today and just want to do everything in software which can really limit your perspective.

As for things moving to fast, thats only if you want to get caught up in that, personally I don't think we have mastered most of the technology currently available..... I've our techno-lust we often forget to explore and GROK what we already have. Things don't always have to be higher rez, more FPS, tighter code... I use software examples as it is far more caught up in it than hardware (not including PCs)...... think about it some software users expect updates to there fav software every 3-6 months, but they are happy to use a panasonic video mixer that was designed in the 80's

The CVI was released in '84 and I still don't think I have EVER seen it used to it full potential (I hope i'm getting close and cv.vjcentral.com should bring us even closer)

Bring on the hardware!!!

[bigloose]

check nato.0+55+3d

http://www.eusocial.com nato homepage

or

http://www.bootsquad.com/nato/nato01.html more explicite if you don't know nn's websites

Or ask Oper8or (if he is comming back on the forum).
I don't know too much about nato as I'm not (yet) using it...

[MoRpH]

Can nato do firewire out???

[KillingFrenzy]

You can use firewire output, but the question is how much you can do and still be compressing on the fly. NATO tends to bog down when you overtax it (as any crowded intersection might.). I believe doing much other than some simple effects and outputting a firewire stream would take a toll that's beyond any reasonably priced Macs.

Better to just buy an MXPRO or other firewire input mixer, and stick with SVHS output. The quality loss from SVHS output as compared to the quality loss from DV compression would tend to equivocate... and the speed loss would really decide the issue.

All that said, my perfect version of a VJ program right now would have the interface with a small preview window and a DV output as the final output. Why? Because you could have a laptop and run your program with a full screen of controls and then send a nice digital signal to your projector or mixer (if it had a firewire in).

Perhaps we VJs need to take our requests to the Graphics card builders. What we want is a VGA out/LCD out and instead of SVHS and a "TV" card we want an integrated DV encoder/decoder that can clone the screen output, or be output to as a second screen. This shouldn't be a shared output/device for firewire device control, but a completely seperate device just for input and output of video as relates to display functions. I'd want the same computer to have a seperate firewire port for regular uses such as capturing from a deck, or chaining a harddrive.


Killingfrenzy

[infopocalypse]

Well I'm glad to see I'm not the only person working on a firewire out for the program, although I'll do this A-LA Avid's paradigm, which can send fullscreen video out to a 2nd monitor (or a s-vhs signal via an NVidia or a Matrox card) AND a firewire out.

Awax... we should talk some about this. As we're both pursuing the same goal on presumably the same platform (Win32) then we should team up to let each other know when we've got an SDK (or share those all too expensive ISO Specsheets) that allows Firewire output.

Email me: jbrundage@runbox.com

[MoRpH]

Another quality VJforums hookup.... brought to you by the letters V and J, and by the number 500 (dammit) :p

[warpTV]

if you are on a mac, vidvox prophet outputs native DV clips (i think) but obviously raw with no effects..more of a sampler...
http://www.vidvox.net/

[jansi]

i've got some questions on nato , if anyone can answer thanks
i've checked the eusocial.com website but it's hard to find anything there, so

1 is nato free? (and Max - do you need it to use nato?)

2 is there nato for PC (or anything simillar)?

3. Does it work in realtime



thanks again

[bigloose]

've got some questions on nato , if anyone can answer thanks
i've checked the eusocial.com website but it's hard to find anything there, so

1 is nato free? (and Max - do you need it to use nato?)

No, prices for nato are on http://order.kagi.com/cgi-bin/r1.cgi?3WJ&&
and for max on http://www.cycling74.com

2 is there nato for PC (or anything simillar)?

No but I think some similar software exit (PD...)

3. Does it work in realtime

Yes


But Max does not work yet with OS X

[MoRpH]

May I just add that you need Max (the base system) b4 you can use Nato (the QT video extensions) as far as i'm aware.

As for PC, there is a pretty good Max copy called PD (you got it bigloose).... but it doesn't do video, for that you need GEM but its still more tailored towards 3d....

If you wanna know more about GEM and PD check out Huo Long's articles/FAQs on vjcentral :)

Oh and to state again BL's point it does work in realtime... as long as you have a fast enough processor to give it the grunt.

[HuoLong]

Miller Puckette is the mans name... creator of MAX, jMAX and PD... MAX is "owned" now by IRCAM (or what ever) and there's a windows version coming end 2002... jMAX is java based, so not good for realtime audio&video... PD is openSource and is "still" in "beta" version, but is developed "daily" by Puckette&Co... PD is more simple than MAX but NOT less powerfull... GEM is a openGL external for PD (supports not only 3D manipulation & particles, but also videoIN, videoTexture, videoFX;add/subtract/multiply/convolve...) FRAMESTEIN is a directX(draw) external for PD (uses also photoshop plugins in real-time)...

...ZZZzzzz
-huolong

[MoRpH]

Huo do YOU think its currently possible to create VDMX in PD/GEM??? you seem to know more about it than anyone I have talked too..... can it do video keying?? X-fading, etc... plus FX and that....

[HuoLong]

yep, but with GEM i've been only succesfull (yet) mixing with multipleImages (avi as many tiffs) workx great. has effects like mask/add/subtract/multiply/convolve... the new gem has also videoIN, (linux version even a DVin) but i don't have a VFW videoIN at the moment... Framestein has more(only) image manipulation fxs (but, haven't figured out how Fs worx)... and of course you can mix them (GEM+Framestein)... GEMplus has also methods for color/motion tracking (but again, havent even installed it yet)...

but there's BIG differences between NATO(quicktime) & GEM(openGL) so it's hard to compare them...

i'm STILL learning even the basics of PD&Co... so i haven't tested all what goes and how fast...

as PD is openSource and you can do externals your self, so "EVERYTHING" you want is possible with PD...

VDMX solution 4 PD: get the source code of NATO + other externals that where used in VDMX and compile them for PD...

(if i could code c++, i would hack that qt just to piss them off. NOT that i needed it)

i'm planning 2 do a "(easy) modular visual system" with PD&co based on patches... (more info later)

so, let's make something awesome for free with PD&co and KICK THEIR ASS :rolleyes:

to get things right: i DO NOT HATE MAX nor NATO (they where my first love), it's just that i'm a poor (up comping) student and i dont got those bucks (not even for a mac)...

-huolong

[jansi]

thanx for help!!


that nato stuff seems to be fucking expensive , i've thought it's some kind of media activism/anti-korporate/open-source stuff but it seems to cost hundreds $$$,

looks like someone wants to make money on left wing new media rhetorics again (see restate/rebelle shit).

[MoRpH]

Yeah interesting that the so called anarchist/screw the system and its media metality groups out there seem so intent on charging a mint of there so called "destroyers" of this mode of thinking..... pfffft cut the wank and get back to reality you twats.

Huo honestly mate I can't see GEM getting much fly in VJ circles until it can atleast mix/x-fade avi's (not sequences of tiff's.... geezus who would work like that... really).

[eXhale]

The only word I can think about the NATO/LEV/Rebelle developers & followers is "elitism". Everything shows it. Way too expensive stuff (so that people who don't have a lot of money can't be part of that community), strange language to turn off newbies, never answer questions, etc. The spirit of their 'community' is the direct opposite of the VJC/F community.

[MoRpH]

Yeah I couldn't agree more X. Totally the opposite of what we're trying to do here.... actually I think the rebelle ppl are actually pretty lamely ripping off the already lame style of the NATO ppl

[HuoLong]

well morph, gem is NOT ment for videos, its just a "plus feature" (using videos as texures for 3D objetcs)!!! i know only derivatives(touch) prog that beats gem in it MAIN function; 3D !!!

but i made a patch with gem+pd that beats vjamm...
(yes yes, i release it later, but now i have more important things 2 do, sorry)[psst. unofficial beta is in pd-list, heh]

-huolong
ps. it IS possible to x-fade videos (and more) with pd...

[MoRpH]

cool I can't wait to see it with a full set of video functions (a PD video addon that is).... this would be better than any 3d cheese :) Only problem would be video format huh??? as PD is multi platform, guess theye could try QT, is it available for linux???

[HuoLong]

gem uses avi on windows and mpeg&mov on linux...
framestein uses atleast avi (@ directX)...

-huolong

[MoRpH]

OK so it can X-fade avis, what about keying/layering??? if it can play them then I guess it can be made to do FX like mirrors, RGB FX???

[HuoLong]

in gem keying is possible using alpha channel... because the videos are played as textures on 3D objects, you can do more than just normal layering...

i haven't tested framestein yet, but it has the possibility to use photoshop plugs in real-time...

sorry, but i can't help so much on videos with gem... because i'm not actually interested on that... but when i know how to use framestein...

-huolong
ps. you could read the gem manual for included objects... (but not all are implemented)

[MoRpH]

cool thanks for the info huo :)

[jansi]

hi thanks for your pd faq and stuff , i think i couldn't start with PD without it

Is it possible to make loops in pd/gem?
lets say i've got a cube moving from left to right and then i want to duplicate it hundred times with different rotation

is that possible (something like Action Script duplicateMovieClip())

thanx jansi

[HuoLong]

i know what you mean! but i haven't not yet figured it out how(or even if) it's made...

...there is an example patch with gem that took the luminance info from a pixel and created cubes from that info. it had only one "cube" object that was used as "instance"... i don't have my PD machine here @ the moment, so i don't know the name of the example patch (try in "example/advanced")...

but i'm VERY interested on this so i post more info when i know !!!
(has to wait atleast until tomorrow, don't have even my email here)


-huolong
ps. yes yes, i know. not in this thread :)