Beginners equipment:laptop or not?

[kulma000]

Hello all, (btw-great site!!!), I have a VERY IMPORTANT question so please have patience,... :) I need your help!

The question :I am thinking on doing vjing, audio, and video and am going to buy some equipment for it.

As I almost live between two countries, plus for travelling and working and gigs of all kind, I was considering a PC laptop. I noticed that many VJ's tend to use laptops (even if often it is Macs?). Laptops are not upgradeable, but I kind of can live with that. I think as far as performance I wouldn't lose much, right? I was also told that the cost of a laptop would be like 50% more then the cost of the same configuration in desktop form.

What do you think?
If I chose laptop, how much should I expect to pay for a decent or half decent etc. laptop?

I am checking out the Dell Inspiron 8200 now, seeing how much it would cost depending on processor speed and hard disk size... Total cost is, say 2'373.60 (tax included) Euro for the 2 GHz processor (Mobile Intel? Pentium? 4-M) speed and 30 G of hard drive... BTW it has Controller vid?o ATI Mobility RADEON 9000 con 64 MB DDR-RAM...

Or there is the 18GHz (processor speed) and 30G (hard drive) version for 2'133.60 Euro (tax included)...(that one's got the GeForce4 video controller) and thats the one reviewed on the site I guess... Think that might do it? :)))

That might be affordable, if it will do a good job...

Are these prices pretty much the reality of the laptop world?
I've checked some sites but its hard to compare considering their configurations... Should I be considering a Mac/iBook/PowerBook or would that just cost even MORE, in a serious way? Opinions on this vary... from ppl who tell me it costs like 6000 Euro, to others who say that by the time you make a PC work well with multimedia it costs more than a Mac,,,.. but I don't really know anything about Macs so I don't know what to think of configurations and prices... I've been on the site, well it doesn't seem to cost 6000 Euro, for example :))) still not cheap, tho...

Or should I just get a desktop? :)

Does it REALLY very much depend on the exact things I intend to do? I mean, I have some ideas in that respect but I don't want to limit myself at this stage... I have a background in performance, used video in performance, did a bit of video and multimedia and am more or less used to finding new and unusual ways to get the most out of equipment, ... I guess I need something versatile to get me started...

I WOULD REALLY APPREACIATE SOME ADVICE, INSIGHT, COMMENTS, EXPIRIENCES, etc.

Thank you in advance for help,
greets,
000

[labmeta]

Personally i would leave the desktop at home and get the laptop
if its within your budget.

From my experiance you`ll only be able to tolerate lugging it around for a while. The mobility the lappy offers is a luxury, but for me it was the best purchase i made.

Mac or PC. For me this came down to what software was gonna do the exact job i wanted on which platform . I use both pc and mac at present with a mixer inbetween. Have you researched all the software options? Check some of the software reviews on vjc.

I`ve recently gone the powerbook route and i`m fully impressed with flexibility and output quality as an all in mixing solution. Check the powerbook vj article

Perhaps you should think if the laptop is gonna be the central piece of kit for you work, or is it gonna become part of a hardware mixer rig. If its gonna be a compliment to a mixer and other sources then perhaps you should start with some cheap dvd decks and work up when you know what your requirements are and you have some gigs under your belt.

Also consider what kind of work you gonna be doing. Some people wouldnt risk taking a laptop to the harsh environmnet of a club each week and prefer to use decks, reserving the computers for more friendly sites and events. So be prepared to maintain/fix it when neccessary.

flexible rig in one bag on a train = Laptops = lots of money


http://www.vjcentral.com/article/show/2662 (http://)

[VirtualVisuals]

I've been in the computers game for about ten years. Part of my day job is testing and selecting hardware for the company I work at. I've also been working in and around clubs for a similar amount of time. Here are a few questions and comments you may find helpful...

You don't really have a sporting chance of fixing a laptop if it breaks at a gig, you certainly can't borrow bits from someone to get it up and running, having said that they are much more moveable than a rack mounted PC.

If you are going to buy a laptop get an IBM Thinkpad, these are the only laptops that will survive (ultimately) in a gig venue as their shell is a Titanium composite material. Once you have got it, get it flight cased, it costs but it's worth it. Having recently tested a whole load of laptops I can assure you that (IMHO) money spent on a Dell laptop is money flushed down the toilet, the build quality is dodgy and they are only made of a flimsy plastic. Possibly the only other laptop that is worth looking at (if you like that sort of thin) is the current Mac powerbook, I'm not a Mac person though.

Having praised the Thinkpad, I still wouldn't go down the laptop route, they are expensive, very nickable and even today the hard disk performance isn't all that. One of the machines that I use is a home built 1u rack server, the case was a couple of hundred quid but it's very nice, well made and caryable under arm if you opt to not rack it up. With a flat panel monitor, you'd still have a certain amount of portability and it will probably cost less than a laptop.

[LEVLHED]

oh no...not another "lappy vs. desktop" debate!! ;)

Ultimately this is a hard decision to make and only you can decide. I think all of the above is solid advice and propose very crucial questions you must answer yourself first.

Another option for the desktop route are the Shuttle PCs.
For a very portable-looking LCD screen, I've been eye-balling the "porta-mon" at www.earthlcd.com for well over a year now...

However, I'm particularly partial to the PC-at-home/gig-with-decks route myself...that is, you might want to consider having a decent desktop PC/mac at home and author your content onto DVD/VCD/VHS and just use a few appropriate decks and a mixer for gigs....the trade-off is you loose some flexibility in non-linearity that you'd get with a PC/VJ soft, but in exchange you get a VERY reliable rig that doesn't particularly look like something someone should steal. If someone does steal it, its a matter of a few hundred dollars instead of a few thousand.

oh, and idea that a PC is any less capable at multimedia than a Mac is complete bullshit...thats typical "mac-head" slander, I have friends with macs and have seen them fuss and fret and fuck with their machines just as much as anyone.

[vjrei]

Man, to use a desktop computer for VJing is the bigest stupidity in the world, ok, all of you that want to jump on my point of view come on. I would never be a VJ if I had to use a desktop computer.

For those that can not afford a portable computer I understand the point very well.

In my case I did the most wiser thing ever. I wait for Apple to discontinued their Firewire G3 500 line and lunch the so famus and equally ussless Titaniun line and I got 2 bearly used Powerbook G3 500 for $1000 each (it was $3000). With only 8MB of video ram, 256 ram and 30GB HD, I can do what ever I want using Arkaos and Motion Dive between other softwares like Videodelic and Fuse. Some times I use an iBook if the event is big.

I have more important things to carry than a desktop computer a monitor, keyboard and a mouse, just to do the same thing a portable computer can do for 1/8 of the weight and space. In my bagpack I have 2 computers, that is it! forget about DVD's I can play them with my Powerbooks.

If I ever need something extra is another Powerbook so I do not have to switch softwares in the middle of the show.

[holly]

Just to add my 2 cents: I have a desktop (Mac) tricked out to be a dedicated renderer (dual processor, lot's of ram, couple of fast internal harddrives, video-editing hardware). As you can guess, I don't travel with it, but I can run live VJ apps on it since it has a pretty powerful video card and is a fast system. I record performances and performance parts onto DVD and travel with several cheap, small players and a good mixer. My partner has some of the same software on his laptop, but I don't think it is speedy enough and I definitely notice the difference in quality. IMHO, the convenience of a laptop is cool, but I prefer the picture quality of my desktop and DVD's. Even though I spent $$$ investing in the mixer and the DVD recorder, both together were still cheaper than a powerful lappy, and I'm not as worried about someone stealing a mixer (only of use to another VJ) as I am afraid of someone stealing a top-level laptop which anyone would want.

But it really boils down to style. Since I am pre-creating all the parts and recording them to disc, 90% of my work is done before the show and about 10% in the mix. It lets me have very high quality clips and layers, but less choices in a show (more like a DJ really). My partner is the opposite: he does about 15% of his work before the show and 85% live on the laptop (more like a musician). He makes decisions on the fly and usually doesn't think much about it beforehand. He relies more on live VJ soft like Arkaos, and I rely on video apps like AfterEffects. I don't think one style is better, but I can't do what he does and he can't do what I do and our styles are very different.

[wellREDman]

if its portability yr after then the shuttle is a really good compromise, you can get a shuttle pc with twice the oomph for the same money as a lappy and still have enough over to get yrself a custom made briefcase with monitor/trackball/mouse AND scan converter in it,
this gives only a slight hit in the portability with a huge boost in the bang for bucks stakes.
AND you can upgrade components etc really easily...

[Rovastar]

The shuttle cannot have normal size graphics cards can they??

The ones at AVIT (UK) didn't if I remembver correctly......so any decent GFX cards cannot go in them.

My point of view is desktop all they way. It depend if you need a machine for complex real-time grapohics if your mion realistic spec is a GF4 Ti then you need to us a desktop for best results.

But must VJ's here don't care about real-time power so it my not worry you. :)

Rememer laptop GFX cards are about 1 year or so behind the standalone stuff.

Horses for courses.

[LEVLHED]

the newer shuttle's have a standard AGP slot.

[Anyone]

never thought I'd say this, but having gone through 2 Dell laptops myself,
and now back to mixing with the Hippo,
which is in between a shuttle and a regular desktop
in size and weight
I can really say that lappies arent the final solution...

unfortunately, my style is to much into sound reactive runtime effects,
so I cant see myself going down the DVD route,
but can definitively see the practical advantage in that setup...

I guess the grass is always greener in your neighbor's joint
em, yeah...

Ne1

[Rovastar]

Originally posted by LEVLHED
the newer shuttle's have a standard AGP slot.

Aha that makes the world of difference. Cool.

Originally posted by Anyone
unfortunately, my style is to much into sound reactive runtime effects,


:eek: :confused: Since when?

[Anyone]

Since forever Rova,
just pay attention next time you come down to my next gig...

[kulma000]

Thank you all for tons of information and very interesting points of view.

I am looking for portability but also am interested in real-time graphics more then the DVD+mixer solution, so I'm pretty interested in the Shuttle PC. :)

Honestly I have never heared of it until now. I've looked around a bit over the Internet and the pics are nice, but I haven't found it in shops... So it basically offers all the upgrade-ability and power of a Desktop PC with a reasonable portability? And price is like a desktop? Does it use normal components, including a normal video card?
Are there any problems? What about the possible limitations to upgradeability due to ristricted space, how much of a problem would I encounter in that sense? Any components I wouldn't be able to use?

I am looking around the net now for it (looking at shop sites, emailing them), can anyone please recommend some URL's to check out?

Greets,
000

[LEVLHED]

the newer versions of the shuttle have 1 AGP slot (standard video card) and 1 PCI slot (for a firewire or soundcard or wutevr) so the number of peripherals you can use is limited, but there's "just enough".
One limitation that may or may not be an issue for you is the lack of bigger power supplies for them. I think the standard is a 150 watt and I think you can only get a little bigger than that. This is a problem if you are using a power-thirsty card (i.e. the ATI A-I-W 9700 Pro which recommends a 300+ watt)...
Otherwise, yes it upgradable with standard desktop parts.


Another (although pricey) option is a "lunchbox" PC which is kind of a cross between a desktop and a laptop. It has an integrated LCD screen but uses desktop components...they are a little hard to find. I'll try and dig up a link so you can see what I mean..

[sleepytom]

http://www.bsicomputer.com/ - lunchboxes should be a good solution but they ain't cheap.

I have an empty bsi N9 fieldgo case that i might be willing to sell if anyone wants it - standard ATX format case with a built in 15" lcd (1024x768) and built in keyboard and trackpad and the wheeled padded flightcase to go with it see http://www.bsicomputer.com/portable/pcatxn9/pcatxn9_intro.htm for pictures and wot not - PM me if your intrested

[LEVLHED]

AHA! yep, thanks Tom thats the link I was trying to remember.

[murph]

my 2 cents - I lugged around a desktop for about 2 years, buying my laptop was the best thing I ever did for my performance. Now I want to get a second one, maybe eventually a G4 as well, to trigger clips from while my main one runs effects in VJo. The biggest thing for me was the monitor. An LCD screen would help, but the laptop I can bring on the plane.

[VirtualVisuals]

I just thought I'd clarify the points that I made earlier and harp on about some other stuff...

I wasn't slagging off Macs, I am just not really a Mac person. (I certainly don't want to get into a Mac vs PC etc etc argument)

I would point out that the standard 'Kensington' lock on a laptop is a bit of a dubious one as they only protect against someone who knows how they work, that is: You can rip the lock off with your bear hands, but this will take a couple of memory address lines off the motherboard, rendering the laptop useless. This isn't a generally known fact and I have seen laptops nicked by having the kensington lock wrenched off, in this case, even if you get them back, they are still knackered.

I'd like to mention 1u rack cases again, as I didn't point out a couple of things that: Mainly that if you get the right ones, they tend to have HDD shock mounting and they take standard motherboards. You'll also probably get on in hand luggage on a plane.

I would also point out that over the years I have lost loads of hardware because I didn't flight case my kit. I know that it adds bulk etc to your stuff, but a good flight case can be the difference between one gig of drop, oops... :( or many happy gigs of drop, oops... :) I personally have all of my kit, with the exception of my monitors, flight cased. (these are only not flight cased as I am replacing them all next month)

GET INSURANCE!!! It may cost, but it sure as hell is worth it for that warm fuzzy feeling.

Finally (phew): Get a good reliable backup solution and test it. Remember CDs scratch easily, but tape can be erased by magnets (speakers).

[spaceman]

Just charing my experience: I've been lugging a desk top around for many years now, It used to be for music purposes, like recording bands, or playing music softs live. Now it's for V.j.ing. It's like a ritual now, I leave the 17inch monitor at home thu, I've got a little 15inch thing that does just fine, now I also have a laptop, so i take that along too. Laptops are fragile that's true, so i'm really careful with it, and have it insured.
Being in India, we don't have all those fancy hardcore boxes and all we do with what we got. When you compare with the music scene, a desktop is nowhere as bulky as a drum kit and a laptop is just as fragile as a vintage guitar........

[Rovastar]

Originally posted by Anyone
Since forever Rova,
just pay attention next time you come down to my next gig...

:)

Maybe the sound reactive stuff was not good enough and I didn't notice. :)

WHat do you use the VJo stuff. :eek:

But true I will check it out at your next gig. No more vectors????