Say NO to war for oil

[Mbazzy]

Further up Mbazzy's latest remix of Saul Williams' anti-war-statement [find it here : http://stage.vitaminic.com/sad_end_projects or http://www.soundclick.com/bands/9/mbazzymusic.htm or http://ssa.iuma.com/ [ It's only the first draft - cleaner edit in the works ] we find it appropriate to pass this message on to the forums :


We told u to stand by...

This email landed in my in box...

Ninja Tune get off the fence with the help of Saul Williams and say no to a war for oil.

Fuck Bush and Blair and their pernicious and hypocritical hyperbole.

Press release to follow.

Release date March 24th (or as early as possible) 12"

Any profits to anti-war charity

MP3s available from now - listen to
http://www.ninjatune.net/downloads

Not In My Name by Saul Williams original.
listen to the message - the mixes by
Coldcut & Spooky


biography at
http://www.artistsnetwork.org/news6/news263.html

word to troops: immediate promotion for "Not In My Name" single, but more importantly the promotion of the
anti-war message
right now
when the need for this
to be heard
is crucial.

word.
i just went & had a listen
go there b4 u go home &
turn up your speakers &
listen

[PilotX]

Anti-War Protests in 33 cities around the world.

I know its in London UK, don't know about the rest of the world, but lets shout loud against this war

Was going to post seperately but this seems an appropriate place
Also in the UK look out for CND free party/benefit to help them with legal bills after their court case got thrown out :(. April 4th in Birmingham and London. Don't know if there are to be others.

plur
Tom

[Mbazzy]

http://www.stopusa.be/

[complexvisuals]

Not being smart but what does an anti-war "charity" do? Ive heard of anti-war campaigns, but who benifits from the money this "charity" makes?

Cian
COMPLEX

[Mbazzy]

According to a EOS Gallup Europe survey towards 15000 people all over Europe, 80% is AGAINST a war against Iraq by the USA without a UN mandate.

In current EC countries, 82% is against, in the 13 candidate countries, 75% is against military intervention.

Intervention is supported in case weapons if massdestruction are found, or if Iraq attacks neighbouring countries.

75% of the people asked consider OIL as the main reason for this upcoming war ...

[3Delic]

Just Bomb USA, GB and Italy for robbing Saddams oil !
No protest just Bomb them as they do since GulfWar...
With music and peace ...

[3Delic]

Not in my Name should be first in american and UK charts !
It's cool to giving them for free ...
Hope it will be heard all around the world !

[Mbazzy]

http://argument.independent.co.uk/commentators/story.jsp?story=372767

[LEVLHED]

I sure hope you guys don't think that everyone in USA supports the war effort!

[vjnixmix]

Yeah dido on that note LEV - after watching the Union Address I am officially embarrased and ashamed of my administration... one that is quite far from democratic... as no one's ever asked me or anyone I know their opinion about what the war-mongering president should do ...

this is becoming more appealing every day :

http://bantha.cjb.net/john/

[holly]

Uh, hello...? The dude wasn't even elected! He's not part of MY administation.

[charlielangridge]

Whoa - why all this bomb this, bomb that talk.

Remeber people, the only good reason for war is to keep the price of petrol low and stifle any form of energy that opposes multinational corporation.

Did anybody say puppet govenments?

Argh, let's blind them all with our beamers - teach them a real lesson!

[holly]

They're ALL puppet governments. Urge your puppet government to support economic sanctions against the US if unauthorized war is declared. Believe me, if it's a war of bombs it's pretty obvious who has the most. Bombs won't hurt America, money will.

3 or 4 months ago Bush was saying the US could wage two wars without the UN's help. There were so many protests here in the states and critisism from allied governments that Bush had to back off and say that war wouldn't happen without UN approval..., maybe. I think these nasty old men just think no one will oppose them. When Bush killed the Tokyo Treaty, Europe and Japan should have created economic sanctions then and there. 98% of Americans don't even know there almost was a Tokyo Treaty.

Charlie's right. Educate, be visible, and fight with all your tools. The only reason despots seize power is because the people let them. We fight every day here, but it is hard to educate with the truth when the press/media are all whores to the government's propaganda machine.

hmmm. I'm starting to sound like eX, here....

[KillingFrenzy]

Holly,
If you look at 3delics post, I think he actually is trying to make the "bomb them with music and peace" statement. Just slightly confusingly laid out.

3delic,
Music and peace? What about visuals? Thats what we do around here =)

Here's an interesting site to get some good info about the actual weapons inpection. Since this is theoretically all balancing on a "scientific analysis" of the weapons inpections team.

www.thebulletin.org

Americans are going to be protesting quite a bit. Unfortunately, the press seems to shy away from reporting about it.

We're in a different phase from the old empire acquisitions of the past. Now, we have a new passive/agressive way of beating the crap out of a country and then expecting them to conform to our model. Instead of just absorbing them and providing support, we smack them around and leave them struggling, then complain because they can't behave as we do. The bully analogy is pretty fitting, because our behaviour is adolescent. Children like Bush (and Hussein for that matter) need to grow up and learn how to behave in society.

[Rovastar]

:( I feel at times I am the only non-lefty on these boards.
If war happens the lefties will say the US went against the UN. I cannot remember the last time the UN thought WAR would be a useful thing to remove evil. They would rather sit on there hands or take handouts.

The ethnic cleansing of the musliems in former Yugosalivia. The UN didn't have a 100% discission to stop stuff all the evil there. Arkward nations again block the common sense and true actions.

What did the UN do to encourage weapons inspecters back into Iraq. Ummmh.....ask Saddam nicely for 4 years. Suddenly with US ships nearby Saddam lets the inspectors in.

Corrupt and evil nations around the world quake in the boots by the UN's hard line.:rolleyes: :confused: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Say NO to war say NO to any action say YES to unaccontable evil.

[fluchtpunkt]

Originally posted by Rovastar
(...)WAR would be a useful thing to remove evil.(...)

"Not by our hearts
will we allow whole peoples
or countries to be deemed evil"
noin (http://www.notinourname.net)

dude, war itself is the evil!

[Rovastar]

? Oh well you missed my point. I love blinked viewpoints.

BTW the link you quoted does not say that all war is evil

"This War is Wrong. The People Must Stop It!"

Note the "this".

[fluchtpunkt]

Originally posted by Rovastar
BTW the link you quoted does not say that all war is evil

"This War is Wrong. The People Must Stop It!"

Note the "this".


?? i didn't claim it does!
...

i don't think i missed your point. you're the one who started making simplistic arguments of 'good vs evil' - i just gave you an answer in this simplistic spirit!
wars are always justified by depicting the enemy as evil to ones people - which is why we should scrutinize at least a bit more before forming our oppinion!

so please, if you have any other arguments other than "cuz he's evil": make yourself heard.

[disassembler]

Dis is a peaceful person from the US. Believe me I don't want a war. People die and everyday we spend on war is another day closer to me losing my job. For real. BUDGET CUTS. Third one in the last 2 months. Heads are on the block.

All part of a war stimulus plan to take money away from State funded everything. Inorder to fund a war and rebuilding.


I work for the state. :eek: :mad: :confused:

[charlielangridge]

Here's a quote that i like,

An eye for eye only ends up making the whole world blind
Mohandas Gandhi

[Mbazzy]

http://www.uexpress.com/tedrall/site/viewru.cfm?uc_full_date=20020925&uc_comic=ru&uc_daction=X

[elbows]

Originally posted by Rovastar
:( I feel at times I am the only non-lefty on these boards.


Theres a lot of right wing people against this war too though.

Anyway if some want to support war its their choice, Im not trying to be an opinion fascist and Im not about to argue about the merits of baby bombing or whatever, its a personal moral opinion after all.

Anyway, Im gonna download this music now cheers :) Me hates war, the only way to prevent terrorism is not to participate in it!

[PilotX]

Originally posted by Rovastar
:( I feel at times I am the only non-lefty on these boards.
If war happens the lefties will say the US went against the UN. I cannot remember the last time the UN thought WAR would be a useful thing to remove evil. They would rather sit on there hands or take handouts.

Say NO to war say NO to any action say YES to unaccontable evil.

Hey Rova, lets hope everyone seperates the political and personal
then.

To be fair, the UN is meant to be an always open diplomatic space. We don't have embassies in Iraq, and no official channels there (although I guess Tony could always pick up the phone, new BT ad anyone?) but we can still talk to Iraq through the UN.
The UN is, and always has been, a talking shop. It does not have the funds, will or mandate to launch actions everytime an area of the world gets tense.
The problem with intervention also is timing. The UN went into Somalia early in the problems and fucked everything up. Thus they did not enter Rwanda or Bosnia until too late. But then Kosovo led to quick action, the results of which I am unclear about.

For me, a second UN resolution is irrelevent. War should not happen becuase war should not happen.

Tom

[brain]

i just try to imagine living in some foreign country, somewhere in the middle east or the far east.

there is another country, telling you
- you have no right to build mass destruction weapons (but they do)
- you have no right to consider military action on another country (but they do)
- you have show UN inspectors everything they ask for (but they won't)
- you have to play strictly by the rules of the UN (but they won't)
- you are not allowed to freely trade the products of your country (although they talk a lot about "free markets")
- they created a death list with people from your country on it (and call you linked to terrorists)
- you are to be associated with evil and somehow your culture is inferior anyway


...to be honest, i'd tell them to fuck off, because i wouldn't take orders from such hypocrite bastards. who could obey their orders without feeling degraded?

tragic thing is, that the urge to keep their pride will make these people even harder and more willing to aquire/hide weapons and fight. and outside pressure will make the people support their governments even more.

the west wastes every chance to be some kind of moral model. we do not try to convince, but simply use military power and terror. any reason to wonder why others do too?

[MoRpH]

Here here Brain, every thing you said X2 :)

[sleepytom]

Originally posted by Rovastar

The ethnic cleansing of the musliems in former Yugosalivia. The UN didn't have a 100% discission to stop stuff all the evil there. Arkward nations again block the common sense and true actions.


FFS rova the actions of the NATO forces in Yugoslavia were nothing short of evil - using DU weapons that are causing miscarriages and mutant babes to this day - bombing refugees and passenger trains (there actually proud of this - see the video here (http://www.nato.int/video/990413e.mpg))

or take examples from the last gulf war when NATO troops buried alive hundreds of soldiers - most of whom were little older than you or i.
where they used the same nuclear (DU) weapons that have cause shocking deformities in babes to fight an army many times smaller than there own (and they still didn't "win")

http://www.benjaminforiraq.org/immagini/Depleted%20uranium%20photos/DU3.jpg
deformities caused by DU weapons in Iraq

war is never a good thing - why do you think that sadam is so evil - cause hes got dark skin? or cause he don't go to church? or cause he's got more oil than Texas???

for more info on DU weapons see http://www.cadu.org.uk/

[elbows]

Depleted Uranium weapons are IMHO a Crime Against Humanity.

[fluchtpunkt]

the us has been using DU for years, but we're supposed to be afraid of a 'dirty bomb' the evil terrorists MIGHT have?!!

...

something to laugh: this site (http://www.masturbateforpeace.com/faq.html) proves it once & for all, pacifists are wankers :D:D

[elbows]

lol nice site :D

Comparing the DU with Dirty bombs is something that makes this extract from the USA's "Iraq: Apparatus Of Lies" document seem rather revealing. Ive included some other statements from the document that might also be applied to certain other nations...

"Saddam Hussein's government uses tragic images to influence world opinion"

" While devoting massive resources to opulent palaces and huge weapons programs, the Iraqi government makes food and medicine scarce for average citizens"

"Depleted Uranium Scare
During the Gulf War, coalition forces used armor-piercing ammunition made from depleted uranium, which is ideal for the purpose because of its great density. In recent years, the Iraqi regime has made substantial efforts to promote the false claim that the depleted uranium rounds fired by coalition forces have caused cancers and birth defects in Iraq. Iraq has distributed horrifying pictures of children with birth defects and linked them to depleted uranium. The campaign has two major propaganda assets:

Uranium is a name that has frightening associations in the mind of the average person, which makes the lie relatively easy to sell "

lol oops, this is the danger of attacking your openents propaganda techniques, for it exposes the workings of PRopaganda in general ;)

[sleepytom]

" While devoting massive resources to opulent palaces and huge weapons programs, the Iraqi government makes food and medicine scarce for average citizens"

where as the NATO imposed sanctions preventing medical supplies from entering iraq clearly have no connection to the lack of medicine in iraq

From 1990, when sanctions were imposed on Iraq until 1995, half a million children under the age of five died of malnutrition and preventable diseases. (http://www.iacenter.org/iraq.htm)

[Rovastar]

I prefer factual news articles.

http://www.thesun.co.uk/article/0,,5-2003052043,00.html

Yeh the mass media is getting on the right side. :) common sense will prevail.

[brain]

"A former mistress of Saddam?s ? one of six in addition to his three wives ? revealed last year how he regularly has to use Viagra, enjoys dancing around to Frank Sinatra, smoking a cigar and wearing a cowboy hat."

???

oh i get it - he's like a mixture of ronald reagan and bill clinton (but gets more girls).

jeez i didn't know things are that bad over there!

[Primebase3]

Money vs. dictatorship.


saddam and bush should both get a visit from the angel on the right shoulder. both of them are evil in there own right


on the one hand you have a saddam that's gun horny and terrorises (sorry for the broken english) his own country with scare tactics and letting his people starve and on the other hand you have bush that uses his war on terrorism for simple money grabbing ( come on when saddam is gone he's gonna take some of the black goo, pure and simple)


so in which case you look it the people in the middle(iraq) are fucked. on the opinions on thread: a small question: are we so in to a utopic idea of the world that if someone keeps slamming a door in your face you won't slam back?


my question to everyone : how do you fight evil men ...do you keep your grond or are you going to flee ?? don't get me wrong I hate war but I also hate dictators that have no regard for there little empire ,shit : evil vs. evil....


peace,

[sleepytom]

Originally posted by Primebase3

my question to everyone : how do you fight evil men ...do you keep your grond or are you going to flee ?? don't get me wrong I hate war but I also hate dictators that have no regard for there little empire ,shit : evil vs. evil....

you don't fight anyone - this is the only way to truly achive peace

[Mbazzy]

Btw, isn't/wasn't there something on PirateTv [coming] with DJ Spooky around this subject? Might be I have my info-lines crossed ...

[Primebase3]

Originally posted by sleepytom


you don't fight anyone - this is the only way to truly achive peace


yeah but tom , what about the people that can't flee from the evil : like the people under saddam's reign they are being terrorised by 1 EVIL individual. how do you help, you can sanction the country but the only people feeling that are the people that need the help!

that's the question you are peace loving ,but your way of life is threatened by pure evil...how do you cope? what to do? (if you bypass war as an option) ?

[sleepytom]

people in Iraq and the US are in a difficult position - they have leaders that did not win properly held democratic elections and as such deserve the help of the rest of the world to remove there dictators and to regain there freedom.

however it must come from the people themselves - if the people of Iraq made a concerted effort to over throw there leader then there would be a strong case for the international community to help them kick him out and hold an election to replace him - however we have not seen this happen yet and the current war is being held on the basis that sadam won't sell oil to the us for a cheap enough price (not to mention the "he tried to kill my daddy" factor) - and as such i simply cannot support any action by the west, even when it is disguised as an attempt to "free" the people of Iraq (how imposing another CIA run puppet government will help is quite beyond me - after all thats how the Taliban ended up in control of Afghanistan)

milosevic only ended up in the hague when thousands of ordinary Serbs took to the streets and demanded that he was removed from power and handed over to the international war crimes tribunal - not anything to do with the NATO bombing of Serbia (all the bombing archived was a wide spread dislike of the US and other NATO members by ordinary people - one common piece of graffiti in Serbia simply states "nato=nazis" - you can understand why they think it too seeing as we bombed there main TV station and the Chinese embassy (amongst over places) killing many innocent civilians)


i have a grate problem with the west deciding that they do not like a government somewhere and replacing it with one that better suites there trade needs, if the people of a country rise up and demand a different government then that is a very very different thing.

[fluchtpunkt]

Originally posted by sleepytom
people in Iraq and the US are in a difficult position - they have leaders that did not win properly held democratic elections and as such deserve the help of the rest of the world to remove there dictators and to regain there freedom.

...and the people in the usa would hardly consider getting carpet-bombed & having their infrastructure reduced to rubble, being denied medicine & food, having their lands littered with radioactive waste, their sons killed & maimed, their country invaded, their regime replaced by another one that answers to foreign powers alone, their natural resources stolen, their culture ridiculed, condemned & marginalized... they would hardly consider this as helpful in trying to make their country a better place!!
especially not if the powers coming to their 'rescue' were to a very considerable extent responsible for the mess they are currently in (...ehm...who was the superpower ally that helped build up saddam's brutal regime in the first place :alien:?? why should those people trust, that it won't happen again??)!!

...i'm sure it's an honor to any soldier, civilian or baby to have their intestines ripped apart by america's(?) inherently good & democratic bombs and bullets :shake:

...

i do not claim to have an easy solution (...or profound enough an understanding of the underlying problems)! i guess no single person does!
HOWEVER i am convinced that this war would mean repeating the errors & evils (yes evils!) of past years that have substantially led to this mess in that region!

[Primebase3]

true true, don't get me wrong I'm not a big fan of seeing the US"fix" the middle east region again, I'm just sayin..you know how can we help the people under the iraq regime? (<--because that's what it is !!) without bush his greedy palms? everybody is talking about the destruction of the wars like ie : milosovic era and Gulf I but nobody has it about the atrosities saddam is commiting now (hence the evil vs evil subject) which he his doing for a fact , the people in the region are so scared : half the kids around are called saddam saddom or any other idolistic anagram.

say your standing in a doorway and somebody keeps slamming the door on your face over and over again, the bully doing this is twice your size : do you move out the door or do you stop him?

the iraqi people prob want to but there scared to death :sad:


my question :when do you help and how?.. there more saddams out there ...

[Mbazzy]

http://argument.independent.co.uk/commentators/story.jsp?story=375941

[Rovastar]

Interesting Mbazzy

sadly for the lefties it only get about a tenth of the news press than say a mans paper like the sun that I quoted from does. :)

[Mbazzy]

Today I read in Belgian quality-newspaper "De Morgen" , that politicians opposed to the war where on purpose not interviewed by USA mass media anymore and opposition in USA by this way is made mouthdeath ...

So far for objective balanced coverage ...

[holly]

The US media simply retells what the government (or Hollywood, or Microsoft or whoever sends in a press release) tells them to say. There is very little journalism, usually they simply repeat what the Associated Press Newswire says. Therefore, US news is very homogenius. The various news programs then tailor the story with a liberal or conservative or sensationalized slant depending on the audience, but it is always the same story.

Surprisingly, I was watching Oprah yesterday afternoon, and (although she is somewhat of a national joke as a daytime women's talkshow host she is very respected among women voters and does not sensationalize or exploit), she did a piece on the Iraqi war and it was the most balanced program I have ever seen, going directly from a person who is "pro" to a person who is "against" and asking them "why" everytime. She had CNN journalists from Moscow, London, and other cities and they asked people on the street what they thought of the proposed war. This is the FIRST time we have seen opinions of ordinary people from Europe! In London they couldn't find anyone on the street who was for the war, but they said a recent poll showed there were some Brits who were pro Bush. There was even an analyst who was talking about what happens after the war using history as a guide and suddenly:

pfvitzz ? WE INTERUPT THIS PROGRAM FOR A MESSAGE FROM THE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES who basically came out and said in his whiney nasal voice that there would be an important announcement later and no questions are being answered now.... And then he left! Any reason to interrupt the first nation-wide American program to have an honest and balanced representation? In Morph's eternal words ? WTF??!!

PrimeBase: the way to conquor a country without bombs is to spend the money not on warships and missles, but to give every citizen food and a non-sqwat toilet.

[Mbazzy]

http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/584524

[Primebase3]

strange indeed, Bush is def. on a warpath I love oprah myself :) and she has a enormous platform in the us (remember the hamburger row a few years back? talk about media influence!!)
no it's true his wife(bush) would give a poets symposium in the white house but it was cancelled because of "pressing matters"
truth was : the same poets would give a no to iraq symposium...

makes you wonder you know ..land of the free speech and opinions or land of the breaking news and propaganda ? the same thing they didn't want anything to do with during the cold war is being used now as a psychological tool . I'm wondering if ex is right about some of his theorys ...

ps: holly there was another oprah episode (old one just after 9-11) where she gave a speech and a dinner for the marines...funny detail , she gave digital camera's to all of them with the notion: when your out there document it for yourself ....


about the sending food : will it work in a dictator country? where he'll get his soldiers to take it in and sell for insane prices??

when is the use of violence justified for a country???

[holly]

Mandela sez:
"Is this because the secretary general of the United Nations (Ghanaian Kofi Annan) is now a black man? They never did that when secretary generals were white."

His claim that Bush is threateing war because the UN leader is black is a little thin... Bush was busy bombng Afghanistan up until recently.

Oprah for President!
http://images.oprah.com/images/home/photoid/home_photoid_top_02.jpg

[Primebase3]

copy that , but I think he's just a little ticked off so the emotions got the best of him (the man went through a lot)

on oprah: HELLL YEAH! that would rock ( orville envisions whole neighbourhoods reading shakespeare will the crips have a chess-by)

[holly]

Could you imagine a prez that is concerned about domestic issues? Women, minorities, education, healthcare, self-help, celebrity interviews, responsible television.... We could have a morning talkshow where congress could air their issues and she could put them in their place. No filibusting because you have to finish speaking before the next commercial break.:D

[MoRpH]

Hmmmmm Congress Vs Doctor Phil, could raise some interesting issues in their childhoods :p

[holly]

Dr. Phil sez:
"Senator, I think you are not really concerned with bombing Iraq and going to war. I sense your real issue has to do with you resent your parents and you are seeking their approval...."

followed by tears and a group hug. Nation sez "Awww!" (Applause.):D

[Primebase3]

rofl :):D

[fluchtpunkt]

shocking if true!!

a (http://usinfo.state.gov/regional/nea/iraq/press/0129kndy.htm)
bc (http://counterpunch.org/hammond02072003.html)
bc (http://www.sunshine-project.org/)

us will use a,b & c weapons to preempt that others could use them first?!!! (did i really get that right?)

WTF is going on??! :confused: :mad:

[Mbazzy]

http://www.reuters.com/newsArticle.jhtml;jsessionid=EQYUNLXMFBWGKCRBAELCF FA?type=topNews&storyID=2197594

Well, wonder what US allmighty will have in mind for "punishing" rogue states like Belgium & France in this issue ... importtax' on Belgian Beers & chocolates , French Cheese [Food & Drug administration will be very resourcefull I guess in the coming time lol] ... It shows that even the smaller countries in this alliance can be of importance [BTW, Belgium blocked in its own/alone the implementation of the modernisation of tactical nuclear weapons as well in 1988]

We need more flees like this in the coat of the US pitbull!!


Our Minister of Foreign Affairs said it litterally in a political talkshow : "This is about oil and power ..."

[psychodude]

Good to see that my tiny little country actually has something intelligent to contribute.....

I say make love (and lots of it) instead of war.


Psychodude

[holly]

Mbazzy sez
... importtax' on Belgian Beers & chocolates

I already have to pay almost $8 bucks for a red Chamay! Curse you Bush!

[Rovastar]

Originally posted by Mbazzy
http://www.reuters.com/newsArticle.jhtml;jsessionid=EQYUNLXMFBWGKCRBAELCF FA?type=topNews&storyID=2197594

Well, wonder what US allmighty will have in mind for "punishing" rogue states like Belgium & France in this issue ... importtax' on Belgian Beers & chocolates , French Cheese [Food & Drug administration will be very resourcefull I guess in the coming time lol] ... It shows that even the smaller countries in this alliance can be of importance [BTW, Belgium blocked in its own/alone the implementation of the modernisation of tactical nuclear weapons as well in 1988]


Can I just state for the record I have nothing against the people of Belguim. As for France. ;):)

[kommy]

i like belgian waffles and french toast

[Rovastar]

-ed

:):D

[Mbazzy]

http://emptynoise.net/images/nextwar.jpg

[PilotX]

Hey all, wnet to see Mark Thomas last night, and him/CND/stop the arms trade are launching an appeal/campaign to get Tony Blair, Jack Straw and Geoff Hoon (Our Prime Minister, Foreign Secretary and defence secretaries respectively) up in front of the international criminal court in the hague if they break international huminitarian laws during a war on Iraq.

This is what they've done: Served them with a notice that if any of the laws which would have been broken in the 91 war (had they existed then) are broken this time round then they will be seeking to get the three of them tried as war criminals.
This includes the use of: Cluster bombs (non-discriminatory), high-altitude bombing (B2s can only bomb from high altitude), petroleum weapons (includes the 'daisy cutter') and weapons of mass destruction.

From Wednesday there will be white ribbons on sale in the UK, the proceeds of which will be going to pay future costs of this action.

Lets get them in the dock :)

http://www.cnduk.org/PRESS/press125.htm

Tom
syzygy visuals

[MoRpH]

Great idea I would love to see this action extended to the leaders of other contries involved in any unilateral action, I would love to see how smug little johnny howard would act with that over his head.

[Rovastar]

Originally posted by PilotX
Hey all, wnet to see Mark Thomas last night, and him/CND/stop the arms trade are launching an appeal/campaign to get Tony Blair, Jack Straw and Geoff Hoon (Our Prime Minister, Foreign Secretary and defence secretaries respectively) up in front of the international criminal court in the hague if they break international huminitarian laws during a war on Iraq.

This is what they've done: Served them with a notice that if any of the laws which would have been broken in the 91 war (had they existed then) are broken this time round then they will be seeking to get the three of them tried as war criminals.
This includes the use of: Cluster bombs (non-discriminatory), high-altitude bombing (B2s can only bomb from high altitude), petroleum weapons (includes the 'daisy cutter') and weapons of mass destruction.

From Wednesday there will be white ribbons on sale in the UK, the proceeds of which will be going to pay future costs of this action.

Lets get them in the dock :)

http://www.cnduk.org/PRESS/press125.htm

Tom
syzygy visuals

I love the selectiveness of Mark Thomas. In the interest of fairness why doesn't he issue ppl like Saddam Hussian and Robert Mugabe with the internation law crime stuff. Ummmhhhh. Thought not.

The more you make a big deal about our governments that promote freedom of speech (Don't you just love the irony the people in oppressed countries cannot speak there mind and the more you bang on critising the government the more likely we will live in a non freedom of speech world as all country that do not allow this will gain ground) shortcomings the more other other 'worse' governments feel they can get away with it. It is counter productive I tell you.

Oh good morning to you all. ;):)

[Primebase3]

copy that you're chasing the wrong people!! get the dicators instead!!!!

[sleepytom]

WTF
bush/blair are dictators - they seek to impose there freetrade christian view point on the rest of the world ("if your not with us your with the terrorists" etc etc) they do not accept that others way of doing things might be as good as there own
sadam / mugabe are bad men who have oppressed the people of the countries they run where as bush/blair are bad men who have oppressed any part of the world where they don't hold absolute power.

the point of international agreements such as the human rights laws is that they apply to everyone - we should see bush/blair in the dock next to sadam as they have both broken these international laws.

[fluchtpunkt]

Originally posted by Primebase3
copy that you're chasing the wrong people!! get the dicators instead!!!!

...but that sounds like it's ok to command genocide just as long as you're some democratically elected leader! (...ehm or a very important court decided you won?!)

so why does the legacy of the holocaust on jews, gipsies, political dissenters & many more still haunt germany while the biggest holocaust in recent history, the genocide on the indigenous peoples of the new world (the population of two entire continents was almost completely eradicated, entire cultures disappeared) is conveniently forgotten - & oppression of the few survivors continues even to this day??!


courts should prosecute people on the grounds of their commited CRIMES - not on the grounds of whose side their on (e.g. ideologically/politically)!

in reality of course it has always been the losers of wars that got tried as war-criminals, never the winners - they get to write the history books & brag of their 'heroism'!:alien:

[Primebase3]

wtf straight back at!!, everybody is moving kilometres out of the way to stop the war by getting the greedy guys(bush/blair admin). via protesting legal action , but absolutly NOBODY here has ever raised the topic of how to stop the man that is a TRUE DICTATOR not the "my word is law or I'll shut you down in every legal loopway" kind like bush/blair but the " shut the fuck up never talk back or I'll shoot you and your wife..naah fuck it I'll eradicate your family instead" kind like saddam and mugabe

everybody is peaceloving but NOBODY comes with other options!! god bless germany,belgium and france that seem to have a true OPTION of STOPPING him. sorry for the pissed-offness but for every "stop the war "reply I see I never see alternatives being mentioned!! it's like telling someone from a glass covered safe enviroment to someone in a hostile enviroment : "we don't want a war with you but we won't help either...I don't know what's worse... tom/herr punkt ...you??


about getting the jews/holocaust in: It's amazing that everybody seems to have forget that the US back then helped instantly after the realized (the harbor attacks) that the terror came to close to there home....ok maybe there reason (shit we're being attacked as well we gotta take action) wasn't good ..but trust me without them we wouldn't talk here about vj equip or new materialistic toys to make dope content/mix shows.


I'll state again: the war is a BAD idea and the bush administration suckz..but then from all you very very very peaceloving people
I'll asked this and don't withold me from the answer please : what is the other option!! and let's talk about it!!! ffs!!!! cos if you don't do nuthin about the situation (like there are MANY of these situations in the world) with so much media-exposure as there is now... your just as bad as the bush admin!


peace(and keep it and make it so that everyone can chat leisurely in there lunchtime via modern techniques!)

damn, :mad:

[sleepytom]

no you've compleatly missed the point - it is not ok for us in the west to decide that we don't like anothers regime and remove it by force - nobody has the right to do that

just because our media doesn't report the attrocitys commited by nato foces doesn't mean they didn't happen (go to bosnia and talk to the people there if you can't understand this)

in short we are not better - our government is not on any moral high ground - the tricks they use actually make them worse than sadam imho because they distract us into thinking that there are good and others evil

i read in the international herald tribune just before 9/11 that the us government was to be prosicuted in the international war crimes court for continuing to research biological weapons (in direct conflict with a treaty they have signed) specificaly anthrax - some of the us congress were taking some other part of the administration to an international court because they had hidden the research into this deadly weapon of mass destruction
(funnily enough nothing more was heard of this after the cia blew up the WTC and posted anthrax to the people who had sought to hold the government to account)

why is everyone so anti sadam anyway - because cnn told you that hes starving his people? hang on a minuet - what if we gave him a chance - removed the sanctions and helped iraq with an aid package that restored clean drinking water, sanitation and food to the people of iraq?

ok so prehaps it is wrong to trust someone who has never been democraticaly elected, but then where does that leave bush??

[PilotX]

Originally posted by Primebase3
I'll state again: the war is a BAD idea and the bush administration suckz..but then from all you very very very peaceloving people
I'll asked this and don't withold me from the answer please : what is the other option!! and let's talk about it!!! ffs!!!! cos if you don't do nuthin about the situation (like there are MANY of these situations in the world) with so much media-exposure as there is now... your just as bad as the bush admin!

peace(and keep it and make it so that everyone can chat leisurely in there lunchtime via modern techniques!)

damn, :mad:


One Solution... Revolution
;) Don't really agre with this entirely, but at the end of the day global revolution is the only long-term answer.
As for the specifics of Saddam: Sanctions don't work, and only really hurt the Iraqi people (who get something like 60cents (US) per day per person to pay for pretty much everything they need from the oil for food program.)
Weapons inspectors: Might help to contain Saddam, but will not help the Iraqi people; imo is a short-term measure.
Invasion to overthrow: I'm a pacificist and that is my reason for opposing war. Direct self-defence, fair enough. Pre-emptive stirke? dodgy imo, as who decides who is dangerous - it all depends on power structures. The US decides because it is one of the few countries (maybe the only one) that has the military forces to launch a war anywhere in the world, by themselves or as an alliance (UN or NATO)
Support/ferment internal revolution: Not too different from an external invasion really imo, except there is maybe more chance of getting an Iraqi government rather that a US puppet regime. Perhaps those in South America will remind us what happened when the US supported anti-communist rebels/governments there...
Leave him alone: Hmm. let Saddam sell his oil, build up arms (whether wmd or conventional), and no doubt attack nearby countries, and set up his family as a dynasty in Iraq. This does not appeal to me. Too much chance of Israel and nukes getting involved.

So Prime, in answer to your question, do I have an alternative? The short answer is no. I don't have a clue what to do. But I will oppose war because I am a pacifist, idealist, and fool. War imho is always, always, wrong and should be opposed at every turn. I can't get away from my emotions on this matter, and so I would follow the France/Germany/Belguim plan of inspectors/containment. But at the same time, I don't want no-fly zones and bombing. damn.

In answer to early question about Saddam and the international criminal court, I am not so concerned as unless he is granted exile I do not think that western powers will let him get away. look at the Yugoslavia/Kosova stuff: Milosevic, and everyone else they can find are there, but the people who won the war (and bombed clearly civilian convoys/buildings) are not. Everyone, not just the losers, should take full responsibility for their actions in war.

plur
Tom

[fluchtpunkt]

Originally posted by Primebase3
everybody is peaceloving but NOBODY comes with other options!! (...)sorry for the pissed-offness but for every "stop the war "reply I see I never see alternatives being mentioned!!

...you just don't recognize them as such:
if we in the first world/west/europe/usa proved that WE are capable of holding OUR leaders responsible for their actions e.g. by bringing them before courts for crimes that THEY have commited (if this is the case)... maybe the people in other places of the world would find hope to be able to do so with THEYR leaders as well! that 'our' leaders usually commit their crimes 'far away' IS NO EXCUSE! you have to start by cleaning your own front yard FIRST (but that is just my opinion)!
by only trying 'other' leaders in 'international' courts we - at best - appear as hippocrites. i'm NOT suggesting e.g. saddam should be let off the hook, HOWEVER i believe tyranny can only be overcome in a lasting manner if by the oppressed THEMSELVES (otherwise it will just mean a change of oppressor)!
this means, that if we want to help we should ASK those people what help they need. one thing they will probably say (though i'm just guessing...) is that they need food & a decent standard of living first (BEFORE the '91 gulf war iraq was one of the most developed & technologicaly advanced 'muslim' countries... most of that infrastructure has been destroyed (not by saddam yet by the west) & an embargo has kept the country crippled!! however all this has arguably stabilized & strengthened saddam's rule - not weakend it).
a starving people cannot stage a revolution (not violently & especially not peacefully).
...
(further hippy dippy slogans/thoughts regarding solutions...)
-send students not soldiers.
-travel: for 'grassroots' cultural exchange. (& i don't mean tourism :) )
-treat refugees with dignity (it's horrible how refugees (& immigrants) are currently treated all over europe).
-destroy/reduce the military-industrial complex in the first world.
-abolish wmd in the first world.
-reduce military spending in the first world.
-educate the 'others' AND let them educate you.
-reduce our dependency on natural resources (regions rich in natural resources seem to have a tendency to be reigned by despots...).
-make western governments stop to support dictators if they do their bidding.


"we don't want a war with you but we won't help either...I don't know what's worse... tom/herr punkt ...you?? "

why is it that peaceful solutions so often seem to be considered as no solutions at all??
imo things just don't change from one day to the other (not even if a war is staged... on the contrary) & why should admitting this be considered as 'defeatist' ? (at least that's how i understand you)


peace(and keep it and make it so that everyone can chat leisurely in there lunchtime via modern techniques!)

word :)


ps:
"herr punkt"

i'm sorry if i come across as arrogant. this is not my intention nor do i wish to impose my oppinions/views on others. however my oppinions are strong & i do not feel like apologizing for them all the time just in order not to appear as rude!

[Primebase3]

you know, from a perfect world standpoint I would give you props tom/ pilotx /punkt it's a good way of thinking , unfortunately our world is not. tom you speak of nato as a big police boogieman that's scares the living shit from everybody. I know about bosnia, holland had a division of peacekeepers there ,that because of bureacracy couldn't help as much as they could..tragic. here you have your orders: to keep the two fighting sides away from each other AND save a nearby village , the dutch had one tank as opposed to ther fighting brethren they ask for air support to help them evacuate the village, because talks the whole village came at risk , the air support never came and the village was no more..

this generation in the west has had the unique (from a global standpoint) and most remarkable privilege of NEVER having an enermous enemy, and with our luxury and time we tend to forget simple things: evil men are not corporations with foul plots, or strangely drawn characters in a videogame. evil men are those that train/indoctrinate there children for war, that hate at will at spreading that in there nation, that oppress people for there own gain. I have news for you people : they are still here and everywhere. yes some come as wolves in sheeps clothing, how can you honestly say...saddam is a nice bloke , he killed 100s of kurds AND he invaded kuwait (that's 91 btw!!! the reason the us came, again not to help but to preserve oilprices)


this generation in the west has have the utmost privilege to not have met a true nemesis like 50 years back, so the symphaty of HELPING oppressed people is something gotten from films , and books.

this is my Freakin Pledge, the pledge of never turning your back on people that are oppressed!!! ..at least the US ACTS to give a shit.........


and this will shock people but some things are worth fighting for. just that we have a luxorious position of never having to do it doesn't mean you have to forget we did the same thing 50 years back and it was bloody good that we did...

[Rovastar]

I wonder you cares more people like me who want Saddam Hussian and Robert Mugabe out of the massively long reigns of evil power so the PEOPLE there can eat food and live releitive normal lives.

OR the tug hugging types are all moralistic and loving on the outside but appear to want the innocents in these countries to die horribly and worse if they speak up against it.

Sleep easy tonight you peaceful do gooders.

The Iraq thing in '91 Saddam invaded/attacked another country (again). Apart from the crazy nosiy lefties that no doubt approved of this and did not want to go the world to do something about it. e.g. threaten him with war and then when he refused to leave go to war with him.

Saddam surrends and part of teh surrendering agreement for him not to flyin the no fly zones (which legally he got out of by using helicopters instead of planes to kill his own ppl. No doubt countries like France blocked plans to attack him again because of this technicality ) and to destory his weapons of mass distruction. In those days they were commonly refered to as 'Weapons OF Terror' I seem to remember.

Now Saddam admitted he had these waepons (giving amounts etc) and agreed in front of the whole world to disarm. 12 years later......yes 12 years folks he still hasn't proved he has got rid of them.

The onus is on him.

The weapons inspectors found stuff in he first few years (massive tons of weight and hundreds of feet high grinding nuclear reactor plates for example, thousands of tons of bio and chem weapons) where are they? I am sorry but if you do get rid of these you do not sweep them under the carpet and leave them in your other jeans. You will know if you have dispoosed of tem they require building to be built, etc to disposs of them properly.

Yet Saddam just says I dunno we have no weapons like that anymore. Common you people I sometimes all the tree hugger types do is read teh anti west propaganda all the time.

I do not want people to die in a war but it is

BTW french, eta ll Need more time it has been 12 years.......have you forgot

fluchtpunkt,

How do your hippy dippy answers help saddam agree to removing his weapons?

They are general points for the rest of teh world to be a nicer place but doing nothing about the problem in hand.

Something I wrote about the crazy UN in another forum about the situation in early Sept 2002

The UN are to blame in this as well. They all agreed that Iraq should have weapons inspectors then one day Saddam turned around and said

Saddam> [Stops weapons inspectors entering certain buildings]
UN> ?What are you doing you agreed, Saddam mate.?
Saddam> ?Oh you don?t need to look in there. There is nothing here honest, gov?
UN>?Saddam please allow unrestricted access to see what has happened to those stacks of ?weapons of terror? you have.?
Saddam> ?Actually I don?t want UN inspectors in the country any more?
UN> ?No you have to. It was all agreed when after the Gulf War?
Saddam> ?I have changed my mind now. Oh and I have kicked them all out now?
UN> ?Well in that case we will have to take serious action.?
Saddam> ?Which is??
UN> ? Ummmh?..we will do nothing. Please let them back in.?
Saddam>?Errr let me think about it???Ummmh NO!?
US> ?What are you going to do UN? He is blatantly breaking the rules.?
UN> ?We will take serious action.?
UN> [UN?s serious action consists of asking the following question]
UN> ?Saddam, have you changed you mind yet it just that the US pointed out that you agreed the this we were hoping they had forgotten.?
Saddam> ?Guess what no I haven?t?
US> ?Saddam we are not a gutless as the UN. We will just bomb the f*ck out of you.?
Saddam> [Said in quite voice so the UN cannot here] ?Well the UN are licking my arse and they are all on my side and they all think I haven?t got any weapons anyway. Haha.?
US>?F*ck the UN we will bomb you anyway.?
US> [US starts moving troops about]
Saddam> {thinks to himself) ?Sh*t they are serious they might actually take some action. Ummh of the massive weapons I have been working on aren?t ready yet. I need more time?
Saddam> [Gets idea]
Saddam> ?We could talk about letting the UN back in?
US> ?Who is going to buy that pathetic excuse??
Saddam> [about to say] ?Yeah it was a bit of a long shot wasn?t it I won?t obviously have let the inspectors in to look at where the weapons anyway. I would have triedto change the ?agreement? ? [Saddam laughes at this word] ?to also access to a 2x2foot area of the desert where nothing exist.?
UN> [beats Saddam to it] ?Thank you Saddam. I know you were a good bloke after all.?
UN> [Inserts head further up Saddam?s arse.]
Saddam> [ROFL] You bullying US [Still ROFLMAO (an ass with UN up there too)]
Saddam> [thinks] ?FFS how stupid are you UN??
US> FFS how stupid are you UN?
UN> What you mean? We know Saddam would let us in he just had a headache that day and didn?t want to too many people around.?
US> ?For 4 f*cking years??
UN> ?It happens sometimes my wife has had a headache for the past 7 years.?
US> ?FFS I give up with you. Saddam you have pissed us off for long enough we are going to get you.?

[elbows]

Is it not a fact that we're likely to kill more people in Iraq than Saddam ever has/will?

Nuff said as far as Im concerned.

Theres a simple way to stop people like Saddam: Dont support them in the first place! They dont get powerful by accident.

Anyway my point isnt that we shouldnt get rid of Saddam, its that theres no bloody point rushing now when its quite clear we can pressure Saddam bit by bit. For sure it will take time, yes 12 years is silly but theres too many reasons for that and its not just the UN's fault.

Look how much Saddam has capitulated already! Why you need a war now? Why not wait 6 more months with this kind of pressure on him and see what happens? There has NOT been 12 years with this kind of pressure on him so that to me nullifies the repeated 12 years cry from you as if that should matter.

War is a reactionary solution for impatient people if you ask me, so to be frank I see it as killing innocent people for no bloody good reason just because you want something cleaned up in a hurry. Real life aint that simple, so why should you try to apply such a simple solution to fix this? Hell I know I dont treat any of my personal life problems in such a reactionary and short-sighted way, so why the hell anyone would want to treat a world issue as such?

Fight war for the sake of peace? Bonkers!

If this is so good for the people of Iraq why arent they supporting us? Well, if you are so keen on this why not sponsor a bomb, Im sure theyd cheer your name as it fell through the sky and killed a bunch of human beings.

Are you telling me that if Britain were deemed a terrible threat to the world and someone decided to stop it by dropping bombs on you, youd support it? I guess you dont like Blair (who does) but would you be happy being killed if it got rid of him?

[krezrock]

http://www.VoteToImpeach.org/ :evil:

[Rovastar]

Originally posted by elbows
Is it not a fact that we're likely to kill more people in Iraq than Saddam ever has/will?

Nuff said as far as Im concerned.

Theres a simple way to stop people like Saddam: Dont support them in the first place! They dont get powerful by accident.

Anyway my point isnt that we shouldnt get rid of Saddam, its that theres no bloody point rushing now when its quite clear we can pressure Saddam bit by bit. For sure it will take time, yes 12 years is silly but theres too many reasons for that and its not just the UN's fault.

Look how much Saddam has capitulated already! Why you need a war now? Why not wait 6 more months with this kind of pressure on him and see what happens? There has NOT been 12 years with this kind of pressure on him so that to me nullifies the repeated 12 years cry from you as if that should matter.

War is a reactionary solution for impatient people if you ask me, so to be frank I see it as killing innocent people for no bloody good reason just because you want something cleaned up in a hurry.

Mate 1) still my question about what apart from war should you ppl do is not answered. Sorry but the estimated half to 1 million ppl in London for the march with the ego warrior/tree hugger/vegan point of view is that what else do we do about saddam.

Let's have no war is NOT an answer to what is happening - stop being so naive. Give sensible alternatives and I will be there with you fighting your cause in the marches (I will eat meat though. ;) j/k))

BUt saying lets not hurt ppl is NOT an answer.

Elbows,

"
Is it not a fact that we're likely to kill more people in Iraq than Saddam ever has/will? "

BTW I do not think it is a fact of this. We (the western world) do not want to kill civalians unlike other parts of the world who it appears want toi kill innocents on purpose.:(

, Enough propaganda stuff is available on the INternet if you want it.

BTW ppl I am sure I can post some extreme eco warrior points of view like the Isreal conspirsoncy with the US to crash into the WTC in 01 just as I can post links to many 'pro-war' sites or neo-nazi (anti-race) sites too I do not because it is extreme please show me the respectr with the same.

PS the i warned you ppl in the chat room that I would be drunk later. :)

[MoRpH]

Originally posted by Rovastar
BTW I do not think it is a fact of this. We (the western world) do not want to kill civalians unlike other parts of the world who it appears want toi kill innocents on purpose.:(

Dude if you think the americans give a shit about innocent ppl that get killed while they go arround the world installing US friendly puppet governments you are sadly mistaken, try checking out the "worderful world" sequence in bowling for columbine (BTW all those facts are public knowledge and confirmed)

[Rovastar]

Morph

There is a difference between a) purposely killing b) Not caring c) shit it happened by accident

lol I can name a load of 'facts' too I am sure the 'Isreal and teh US crashed into the WTC' agreement had a load of 'facts' too.

lol do you just read the Bagdad Daily (in assoication with B.LadIn Productions) *sigh*

[KillingFrenzy]

Originally posted by Rovastar
lol do you just read the Bagdad Daily (in assoication with B.LadIn Productions) *sigh* [/B]

Ugly use of rhetoric Rovastar. Your arguement uses the same methods Goebbels and McCarthy used to get their opinions agreed with. You might as well have said "this card-carrying member" or "The Shylock Press". Ugly sentiments. Think hard before you buy into bigotry.

There are issues beyond the immediate. Are we willing as a society to evolve beyond an "us vs. them" mentality or work to become a problem-solving community.

The actions of the US government and PARTICULARLY Mr. Bush are not in keeping with a peaceful compromise. He has systematically denied compromise, and has made as much as clear that the US/his opinion is what matters. This is a cavalier attitude that lowers my opinion of him from inept statesmen to dangerous loudmouth. His attempts to ignore facts and concoct his own version of the truth to justify his ends are even more appalling.
To use martyred sympathy/vengeance as an excuse for political/economical ends is a form of devious manipulation that I can only think of as evil. There is the obvious evil of putting a bullet through someones head, there is the equally foul crime of leaving the person alive and making them your puppet.

Solutions:
The only way to get a global community to work together is to behave as a member of that community.
When Belgium has as much say as the US, then the world will be a better place.
International law/organizations are not perfect
BUT Bucking against the restraints of international law is not going to make them better. Working within those communities and building their abilities to serve as arbitrators in debate is the only way to stave off direct physical conflict.
The path of non-aggression is not a cowards path. The global equivalent of standing in the front line and taking a bullet with your arms behind your back may be a nuclear weapon... or a plane flown into a skyscraper. It is a path of patience above all.

I do not find the current situation to be handled with patience or empathy. I find it to be powered by spite, vengeance, and even greed.

Ends and Means of governments must always be held to the highest standard. To allow either to slide because of comparitive evil with a debauched opponent is a moral defeat.

There is too much work to be done fixing the problems of this world without creating more work through destructive behaviour.
War is a waste of lives, creativity, and resources.

[Primebase3]

2 at night halfway in your set and everything's looking good for the first time your lappy doesn't crash.

your taking the looks of this nice girl/guy /whatever. en you get the looks back your night is all good. all of a sudden this guy pushes her/him over in his drunken state , instead of helping the person up he starts beating in the person...



the example above is a simple 9 out of 10 people would help and or call the police. right.....??



what if you replace the person falling with millions of opressed/starving/martered/ no chance in hell to check that tech thingie out/ people and your drunken enraged man with a dictator ???



..you'd help and call the police(nato) ....right??



that's my point of saying this generation has had no enemy , it has never had the feeling of nationwide fear in it....why should it sympathize with people that do.

in a perfect world I'd vote for alll your views ..but wake up: evil men are here. so as a peaceloving person you have to help , and sometimes peaceloving cats need to realize you have it easy , you wake up in the morning grab your mail and eat your breakfast in the morning where as somebody else in the world (say ..africa/asia/southamerica and so on) has to grab a machete and ak-47 to kill and mame for his chief/dictator ..he has to or his wife,mother will feel the same cold steel of the gun he's loading,


isn't it worth fighting for to free people like that, when talk is being laughed away, you can come with me with facts like peace-o-matic but I wonder how many people here have actually truely thougt what it might be like?



peace.....not just for the chos.. no ..lucky few, :sad:

[PilotX]

Prime, I fully respect your stance. But at the end of the day I'll support organisations that go to Iraq with food and medicine, breaking sanctions to supply the people with necessary products. I'd go out there if I had the money spare at the moment. It's hard to know the effect of not living through a war, but I have not, will never, forget the holocaust (Austrian relatives in Auschwitz. My Gran got out in 38. Many of her family did not) But many people do not have that personal connection to it. I do not think we are in the same situation as in the 30s. Iraq, if left free to do what Saddam wanted, would become the overpowering arab military nation in the Mid-East. But Saddam is not surrounded by the kind of people Hitler had. He is not a military genius, nor a propoganda genius. Saddam is not even that great an orator. He couldn't defeat Iran in 8 years, despite all the riches of Iraq in that period. he could make a move on Israel, and that truly terrifies me about this situation. Just realised - I am not (religiously) Jewish, do not support the Israeli state. It terrifies me because Israel has nukes (maybe Iraq as well) and I don't knwo if they would use them. I don;t think the US, UK, France, Russia or China will do (again), nor Pakistan and India. But Israel.

Evil people exist. I accept that. They cannot be ignored (or will not let you do so, perhaps more correctly). I accept that. I will not fight, participate in a war because I do not believe wars should happen. I cannot directly prevent anyone else from signing up; the only person I can stop is me. If no-one in the world fought, made arms etc. then there would be no war. I know full well that my stand will not prevent war, but see it as the only viable way to reach the world I want. It's kinda hard to explain why. If you've read Kant's ethics then you will have part of my position - it's a kind of more sophisticated version of treat others as you wish to be treated. But stated as take those actions that you would have everyone else take. It doesn't work perfectly, but gives a good guide for me.

Rova - 'Ego warriors' lol sometimes your mistypes are classic, but was this one intentional? :) but don't mistake all those on the left as wishy-washy spineless liberals with no thought to their position.
Also I respect what you're saying, but there is no-one on the left who believes that sept. 11th was a US/Israeli venture. The furthest towards this I have heard is that the US knew of the attacks and let them happen in order to go to war in the mideast to gain control of oil. I think this is ridiculous personally, but the us/israel thing is bollocks, and imo anti-left propoganda designed to weaken the position of those who argue against the US regime. btw, the links between Iraq and Al-qaida are ridiculously weak. The people that the US identifed as linked to Al-qaida live in an enclave in the North of Iraq that is recognised as not being under Saddams control. hmmm...

If the US cared about civilian/innocent casualties, would they use cluster bombs (when unexploded bombs look suspiciously like air-drop food parcels) or daisy cutters which are petroleum based ridiculosly sized explosives that obliterate everything in their surroundings (I'll find some proper info on these if you want, don't have it in my head at the moment). Accidents do happen, but when you're using weaponry designed as these are, or like Napalm, then you know full well there will be civilian casualties.

plur
tom

[MoRpH]

I have 3 words that every one should ask...

1.WHY NOW??? ... simple because they can use all this terrorism hype (mcCarthyism over again) that is flimsy to the extreme, to get what they want (control of the oil) rather than do something more solid about Iraq years ago.

2. HYPOCRITES..... why the fuck should america be allowed to sit on its piles of weapons of mass destruction and talk down to every one else about how they can't have any. I agree that Iraq shouldn't have them BUT NIETHER SHOULD THE US (or any country for that matter)

3. DEPLETED URANIUM SHELLS.... any one (NATO, etc..) found to be using these EVIL EVIL weapons should be fucking exectued on the spot for crimes against humanity.

And in answer to your question about what should be done rova/prime... simple the stupid americans need to be muzzled and the levelheaded europeans should be allowed to continue with their attempt to ramp up inspections, etc... rather than being bullied by the yanks into a war MOST of the population of the world can see might have a desirable out come (removing saddam) but is essentially being fought for oil using terrorism as an excuse and will kill lots of innocent ppl in the process.

[brain]

yeah right morph...

plus the very likely effect of western armies going on a hightech killing spree in the middle east:

= casualites
= more hate agaist the us and western culture
= more violence in the middle east
= more embittered youths eager to die a "martyrs" death in mad terror attacs
= more casualties in israel and the west
= more military pressure from the west
= start from top

how can any sane person think this will make the world a better place?

what kind of example do the us set with their politics?
if you want to be a great country:
collect lots of weapons, have a war every few years to practise,
use your economic power to force your allies to do as you please,
threaten the world with the possibility of total annihilation,
use the UN if it's of use for you, otherwise fuck them,
manipulate media, lie and use all tools of propaganda,
deny other countries to do as you do.

it's all not about justice (not even just about oil), but to show who's got the power. but this power is dumb old fashioned military force, which NEVER will stop terrorism or religious fanatics, but will encourage them and plays into their hands.

what to do about mass destructive weapons?
total banning of ABC weapons, worldwide, now, without exceptions. creation of an effective worldwide monitoring system. effective international treaties who force countries to cooperate, with the option to fully isolate them politically, economically, culturally.

what to do about dictators?
treaties on international standards for human rights. effective international treaties who force countries to cooperate, with the option to fully isolate them politically, economically, culturally.

this won't happen? well, maybe. but you can't blame saddam alone for that. lots of western countries will not agree either. so it seems the fuzz is not all about weapons or bad guys.

the solution is not another war, but a global change of political values and preferences. so we all have to act for a better world, not just send some troops to kill some people.

[Primebase3]

I'm already happy that suggestions are coming in to help the people there rather than blatantly screaming stop the war! !!


thanks , restored my faith in humanity again,

It's so easy to be on the pacifist side of things the real "war" is to find a way to help that strokes with your beliefs.

sorry I'm taking this topic extremly serious because of the sierra leone situation a time back I believe nato can do good things. it's TO easy to see everything in happy happy peacefuol 20 -20 vision all the time
sometimes that's the evil of man.. denial.


peace

[elbows]

Screw the idea that America tries to protect innocents.

The whole reasons they engage in massive bombing campaigns is because they would rather kill thousands of innocents than have more American soldiers coming home in bodybags.

And it matters not to those who will die as to how hard America tried to prevent their deaths - they will still be dead at American hands.

I have absolutely NO respect for the idea that us tree-huggers cant offer any solutions. Bull - we just cant offer solutions that you happen to like. If it isnt simple and quick then you dont want to know. Well, theres been a lot of sensible plans put forward by many countries, all it really involves is NOT RUSHING INTO WAR.

I dont think yo can label the anti-war brigade as tree-huggers in this instance, because for once we are in the majority and I know well that 70% of the UK are NOT all hippies!

Finally, if all this is so serious and Saddam is a real and current threat, why has the propaganda been so shite?

[MoRpH]

Originally posted by Primebase3
It's so easy to be on the pacifist side of things
No its easier not to think for yourself an buy into the pro war US propaganda bullshit hence why certain ppl are keeping THIS argument going and retards like BUSH, BLAIR and HOWARD in power.

[Primebase3]

wack morph : I already stated that I'm not pro war on this matter: the only thing I want to hear are solutions : sleepytom even't wen't as far as not doing anything at all!!! that's bullocks to me you can send food , you can protest all your like , at the end of the day, you are eating!!C(and that's my point!!) , and other people starve to death(!!!) because they have to pay to much to there friendly dictator for the foodpackages there suppose to get ,amazing isn't against all the evil propaganda exposures against the us there's nothing on saddam, why both seem to be coming from the seed of satan.

I state again, I want no US greedy war for oil BUT I want to see people saying proudly peace is the answer If they would fight for it as well ?? I swear if some wars wouldn't have shown up the world would have been a different place , there not always happening in the way of the gun (the destruction of apartheid....amazing nobody intervened so until the 80/90s it was still here, how fucked-up is that?) so that's double bullocks. my statement get out that uk/australia/europe smart yet extremly safe elitist way of thinkin AND PUT YOURSELF IN THERE SHOES , not in years but right now when a kid is starving or getting shot because we are to peaceful to help!!! get saddam before the tribunal instead of blair (what's he gonna do besides blowing up your taxes) fuck while your at it get bush in front there as well.

fuckit I'll say it : I want a war for love and peace.


ps: ow..about my question a few posts back (safing the person getting beat up by a bully) ....the person's dead now because we are talking about the situation instead of acting!! which we could have done (FFS! How simplistic a metaphor was that post for the thousands dying today???) HELP THEM!


peace (for everyone)

[MoRpH]

hahaha sorry, but nothing is sadder than a sad white boy saying something is "wack".....

anyways back to the program, sid my bit I'm out of this thread... over it, no point making valid points with some ppl, oh well let hope they are the first to get harassed by the govt secret police when the yanks rule the world unchallenged.

[sleepytom]

LOL (twice)
bullocks = male calf (baby cow) ( i assume you ment bollocks) althoug prehaps we should send some small cows to the people of iraq (heffers are better though)

and more seriosly
"I want a war for love and peace" - a war for peace WTF? thats up there with shouting for silence - think about it

i don't think i said doing nothing atall would bring about a change - but i do belive that to avoid more of these situations developing in the future the west has to stop interfering with the rest of the worlds internal politics.

[PilotX]

Hey Prime. I think we were typing at the same time for your metaphor. Yeh, you intervene to stop the guy pummelling seven shades of shit out of her; doesn't mean you have to break all his bones to do so. Of course, in the world there is no possibility of chucking Saddam out and closing the doors behind him (except by killing him) as we can do in the nightclub.

But it's a very different situation with saddam, although I don't discount the meaning of your metaphor. Do I feel it's right to sit on your hands as other people are opressed? no. Do I think that a war on Iraq, regime change will free the Iraqi people? Maybe, but they'll be paying for it for generations to come. Goodbye any money in the country. Hello anti-west/UN feeling for the deaths of relatives, and the poverty that they will see as being inflicted by the west (as is happening now due to the sanctions regime).

Unfortunately, I think that change has to be internal. I think the UN should have supported Iraqi insurgents after the 91 war and helped to replace the dictatorship with an Iraqi democracy. But that would be risky for NATO, again because of the Kurdish/Turkey situation. I did not campaign against the 91 war because I thought it was right to defend Kuwait, although I realised it was primarily about oil supplies.

I'm not sure how peace comes from war. As far as I know from history the roots of most wars lie in previous ones (ie: WW2 has roots in the settlement from WW1, which has roots in the Franco-Prussian war of the 1870s). Somehow Western Europe broke the cycle after WW2, by tying France, Germany, Italy, Holland, Belguim, and Luxembourg together in an economic union. This seems to have worked, as it does not look likely that Western Europe will erupt into another war anytime soon.
The problem is that many people have the desire to avenge their family/country years after war has occured. I'd love to free the Iraqi people (preferably in some kind of super-hero single handedly hollywood blockbuster movie style ;)), but don't see any way of the US doing so from the outside without worsening the situation in the long run. Maybe we learn, and are not thinking the same as in colonial times (when we freed people from their warlords and chieftains and religious beliefs) and can sort out a settlement that will not blow up in our face in a few years, or decades time. I just don't have that confidence.

All people who commit crimes against humanity should be in court for it. Not just the losers.

Just gonna slip a pointless mantra in now:
a world of peace and love does not arise from a policy of violence and hatred.
(yeah, I know: I'm off to hug some trees now ;))

plur
tom

ps: another metaphor for you: If your finger's hurting, and you don't know why, do you cut off your hand to stop the pain?

[Mbazzy]

I've read up a lot over this issue lately and the more you scratch the surface, the filthier it gets ...

First of all one has to look at the fundamentals of the problem which is a failing geopolitical policy by the West in general and the USA in particular for the last 50 years ... entirely based on selfenrichment

This is a war for influence , resources and economic interests mixed with blatant interwoven personal interests of in particular people in or closely tied to the US government. A little example : Just read up over the ties between the so called PCM (Private Military Company's - "Civilian" companies that have taken over up to 50% of non-warfare military tasks!] and people within the Bush administration. The involvement of these PCM's in the oil, diamanttrade , ...

If the USA wants to play policeman of the world as they claim they should look further than the countries where there are American [and Israeli] interests ...

I think there lies the main aversion of people into this upcoming war ... if the US was so willing they could have swept Saddam of the map in 1992 ...

Is it an accident that just now starts to dripple through that Uranium was found in Iran ... when can we expect pre-emptive strikes there ????

[Primebase3]

Originally posted by MoRpH
hahaha sorry, but nothing is sadder than a sad white boy saying something is "wack".....



cat, have you even seen me before??? yeah I'm as white as my coffee in the morning (I drink it black btw) , fuck my bad I thought I was debatting with some intelligent people ,rather then people trying to stick me on grammar misstakes and race... damn... I'm out. I'll come back when some intelligent points are made.
:mad:

(point being made) anyz bless you pilot for sticking on topic with some good points!! (!! some catz just need debatting lessons 101, stay on the topic don't turn on personal attacks, stay a professional and most important: prove me wrong))

no your right(wouldn't cut of my finger :)) , but your missing the fairly well known fact of hitlers hate for people I think that and and the aftermaths of ww I had a lot to do with the explosion of hatred back in the forties (debatting lesson 2: see the facts added with a opinion, was analyzed and now returned with facts you found and added with your opinion) , the reason that war was important for most wasn't just economical , it was also what hitler was representing at the time, I stated this before I think that war needed to be there , there was someone oppressing someone (whole of europe in this case) and people helped to get them free ...why is the saddam/mugabe/sierra leone situation so different ? (conlusion of debatting lesson3 , the opinion is formed added with some facts , now subject b will once again try to prove me wrong...end of the class cats, run along and prove you can be a pro with blows above the table.)



peace,

[fluchtpunkt]

Originally posted by Primebase3

ps: ow..about my question a few posts back (safing the person getting beat up by a bully) ....


i wanted to answer that question. yet this metaphore to the current situation in iraq (or despotism in general) is imo so seriously flawed in so many ways (not to mention extremely suggestive) i really don't know where to start criticizing!

maybe the fact that this type of argumentation (e.g. "what do you do if 'they' come & rape your wife or sister"; "...'they' kill your children"; "...'they' torture your brother or father" etc) is part of standard operating procedure (brainwashing) in any part of the world or history to turn (mostly) peaceful young men into killing-machines!

what WOULD you do if the bully is stronger than you & there's no police etc. you can call for help?
as long as the rational to evict undesired people from power is force/violence it will in simple logic consequence be people especially skilled in the use of force & violence that subsequently take (those) positions of power! this leaves 'the rest of us' at the mercy of such people anew (though such skill does not always lead to its abuse, & though once in a while they may even BE merciful,... often they won't).

you say that denial is a major part in such problems & i perfectly agree. ignorance & denial often come together - simplistic analogies like the one you used are imo a form of ignorance & rather dangerous becuase of their suggestiveness (...please DO NOT mistake this for a personal attack: it is not!!).

btw: in the precise situation you mentioned i would first shout at the guy then (threaten to) call security, then police. i would NOT try to punch (...whatever) him because i would only convince the bully even more that violence is a viable way of achieving ones aimes; his lesson wouldn't be to not hit a girl (or anybody else at that) again but that he should get even stronger/more violent.

peace


btw: the 'tree hugger' view of pacifists imo proves a fundamental misunderstanding of what pacifism really is. pacifism is all about NOT looking away & doing nothing - yet tree hugging implies exactly this!
and especially i believe non-violence to be superior in any way. ...a truly powerful (wo)man is not one that will pick up a sword, but one that does not have to ;). ...we shouldn't feel ashamed in europe for having found peace (to a very big extent at least)!! we as europeans had been slaughtering each other & exporting our slaughter for centuries without end; we should be proud of having broken the vicious circle & 'keep on breaking it'.

[Primebase3]

Originally posted by fluchtpunkt


btw: in the precise situation you mentioned i would first shout at the guy then (threaten to) call security, then police. i would NOT try to punch (...whatever) him because i would only convince the bully even more that violence is a viable way of achieving ones aimes; his lesson wouldn't be to not hit a girl (or anybody else at that) again but that he should get even stronger/more violent.



see, punkt but your getting the point instantly, you would help!
you wouldn't throw punches but you would call security/police ..the guy would struggle but in the end the guy would be out of the club the promotor would say something stupid and the party would go one.


alright now see my point replace the following variables with the following ones and you will see what i've been trying to tell what MY (I'll state it again before everybody calls me a white boy again (that hurt morph... :rolleyes: no..really(sarcastic note) opinion and views on the whole situation are

Club = world
girl = oppressed
bully= your random evil dictator
(silence in club) = (disturbance of peace)
You = country seeing oppression (the variables for you are to help yourself , not possible then b) say nothing c) notify others to help you say for instance.......
security/police=nato/un
struggle= wel if the guy struggles hard it's a war , if it goes easier then it's the automatic overthrow of the dicator(bully) out the door(read out of power in the designated country)
promotor saying something stupid=...well nuthing really just wanted to give it a comic note :)
party goes on: peace is restored.


simplified but in short my view of the situation in a very off placed metaphor...

a lot of people complain about the "security" that is going to get the "bully" out of the "door" because of there methods and facts of knowing they rob the "bully's" "wallet" ok, but help the "girl" still (and...this is imo) and get "security/police" that does the job right. not trying to talk in the "bully" to stop while the "girl" is bleeding to death....



and that's my point , its late I'm gonna eat and watch the news, hoping that the good cops are gonna take on the job while the bystanders just insanely scream to other cops about there methods I'll be on the floor giving that first aid...whatever man...


:sad:

[brain]

oh metaphors... difficult but sometimes helpful.

we don't have the situation of a innocent person being harrassed at a party, but TWO armed drunks taking each other on.

one of them is the bigger guy you know to have a gun in his pocket - but hey, he made a nice comment to your visuals before, so maybe he ain't that bad? maybe he will spare you, but word is out that he mashed up some people really bad in the past...

the other guy is less known, but roumors are that he's got a sharpened fork up his sleeve and he knows a few bad guys.

they shout at each other and are about to wreck the party. the big dude may force the other out, but it seems like he's so wasted by now he'll look for the next trouble soon after.

call the police? everytime they come in, things get ugly - agressive guys, pushing people, switching the light on, take the opportunity for a quick drug raid, sometimes they even arrested the wrong guys! nobody likes them? maybe for good reason. last time they had the idea to bring in a new DJ to chill the crowd! noone wanted to stay at such a party...

so, better try to group up with a few people, talk the guys down, make them go home. not easy, mite take a while, but the only way to save the night. and the only way to prevent them from coming back later (after being released by the police) to smash up the PA...

[Primebase3]

shit just wanted to shut down and go home , aaight brain I'll give it a go... ;)


so we're talking with the two guys but one of them's extremly one edge while your talking to the both of them (the one guy's eyes twitching in to every direction) he goes beserk and starts slicing up people and the girl in the back (the oppressed one) is cut-up because she 's his girfriend and was standing in the way

Never forget that above the two evils we want to protect the one from the other with , there's that that person/people in the middle that seem to be in the middle of all this not willingly but by the tight grasp of the extreme drunken bloke. she can't go anywhere ... that's my beef with the situation: I respect all the options being presented , but what about the risks involved , do we need another Kurd/Iraqi massacre /girl sliced up story in the paper to prove us wrong ? ...damn getting tired like a certain tarantino flick : to be continued,



peace.

[elbows]

The bully at a party metaphor doesnt work for me because surely war would be equivalent to blowing up the entire club to get rid of the bully?

Theres two thrusts to my anti-war argument. The first is that innocent people will die now. The second is that Im absolutely sure this will just sow the seeds for future conflicts. At best you may have your "war for peace" now but the peace will not be built on solid foundations, so will not work longterm.

I mean, jsut read the history of Iraq, then you can clearly see that the UK basically created modern day Iraq, and ruled via various puppets etc, which led to feelings of hatred towards us and nationalism from the ordinary Iraqi people. So nationalists took over, oh hello thats Saddam Hussein!

So, forgive me for calling the notion that this war could cause democracy to spread throughout the middleast just a tad naive!

[elbows]

Britains Role in shaping Iraq:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/2719939.stm

Excellent Rory Bremner special on Iraq in video format:

http://www.channel4.com/news/2003/special_reports/iraq_hard_place.html

Those who do not learn from history, are condemned to repeat it

[fluchtpunkt]

Originally posted by brain
we don't have the situation of a innocent person being harrassed at a party, but TWO armed drunks taking each other on.


...and in that case their livers stand for the people who suffer lol ;):D

[MoRpH]

Sorry if you took that lame thing all that personally actually it had more to do with my annoyance @ hearing the little white kid eminem wannabe's around here that talk like that... sad and VERY lame.

Anyways I'm not rejoining this thread as its just going around in circles, just thought I would add these two great little items I have recieved in my inbox recently..... both make many great points about the possible war.

_________________________________________
If you're happy and you know it, bomb Iraq

If you cannot find Osama, bomb Iraq.

If the markets are a drama, bomb Iraq.

If the terrorists are frisky,

Pakistan is looking shifty,

North Korea is too risky,

Bomb Iraq.

If we have no allies with us, bomb Iraq.

If we think someone has dissed us, bomb Iraq.

So to hell with the inspections,

Let's look tough for the elections,

Close your mind and take directions,

Bomb Iraq.

It's "pre-emptive non-aggression", bomb Iraq.

Let's prevent this mass destruction, bomb Iraq.

They've got weapons we can't see,

And that's good enough for me

'Cos it's all the proof I need

Bomb Iraq.

If you never were elected, bomb Iraq.

If your mood is quite dejected, bomb Iraq.

If you think Saddam's gone mad,

With the weapons that he had,

(And he tried to kill your dad)

Bomb Iraq.

If your corporate fraud is growin', bomb Iraq.

If your ties to it are showin', bomb Iraq.

If your politics are sleazy,

And hiding that ain't easy,

And your manhood's getting queasy,

Bomb Iraq.

Fall in line and follow orders, bomb Iraq.

For our might knows not our borders, bomb Iraq.

Disagree? We'll call it treason,

Let's make war not love this season,

Even if we have no reason,

Bomb Iraq.

__________________________________________________ _____________________________________________



At a crisis UN security council meeting this morning Colin Powell requested

a final chance to convince the world of claims that war with Saddam was the

only option. A hushed silence fell over the room.....

Kofi Annan: "Mr. Powell what proof do you have that Iraq has weapons of

mass destruction?"

Colin Powell: "We kept the receipts."

[Mbazzy]

Remember me mentionning our "genocidelaw" , well :

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/2754877.stm

[Primebase3]

it's cool morph but I'd rather wish people wouldn't focus on how people say something but what they are saying and respond on that (even if you think I'm totally wrong :))

elbows: again I agree but I just wish people would see the things that are happening now(I mean right now) ...aren't they even a worse fate then a war? people are dying or having to kill for someone's gain right now , already teaching kids might makes right. It's not just the saddam situation but every other country that has this problem , white farmers being killed for something there ancestors did and the president not doing anything or just your archetype dictator from a south-american film, the only reason the iraqi situation is special is because of the prize under the ground and it's media attention it's getting. has anyone ever talked to a iraqi refugee?? has anyone ever hear the girl in the middle of the bully..shouldn't we help on that alone (and only that?)

mbazzy : yeah I've heard of the law...this is going to have tail the israeli government wouldn't take this ..it's a insult but the plus side is you can take any president/dictator in front of a belgium judge!! including bush,saddam or any other evil for that matter. if they'll take it serious...no but it will have repercussions...man is it me or are things growing out of proportion???


this is getting a circle conversation indeed, I have my own crisis at the mo , ( ever try to make a legit bizz from your media practise...don't..pff) I just want to say that : it is my opinion and my opinion alone, I respect yours so do me a fave: and respect mine.




peace

[Rovastar]

Originally posted by PilotX
Rova - 'Ego warriors' lol sometimes your mistypes are classic, but was this one intentional? :) but don't mistake all those on the left as wishy-washy spineless liberals with no thought to their position.
Also I respect what you're saying, but there is no-one on the left who believes that sept. 11th was a US/Israeli venture. The furthest towards this I have heard is that the US knew of the attacks and let them happen in order to go to war in the mideast to gain control of oil. I think this is ridiculous personally, but the us/israel thing is bollocks, and imo anti-left propoganda designed to weaken the position of those who argue against the US regime. btw, the links between Iraq and Al-qaida are ridiculously weak. The people that the US identifed as linked to Al-qaida live in an enclave in the North of Iraq that is recognised as not being under Saddams control. hmmm...

:) hehe one of my more fun mistypes. It wasn't intentionsal. :)

Regarding the WTC /US consp thing I was making an extreme viewpoint (so peopel really believe this with a passion) about how far you have leftie ppl been sucked into the anti west propaganda. I expect there are many thousnad on the 'Let Saddam take over the world by doing nothing march' throughout london on Saturday. (*sigh* you cannot have a pro-war march)

Thankfully it appears you have not been that sucked in. :) *phew*

I agree teh links with AL-Q are weak if much at all but lets not forgot that Saddam DOES sponser terrorism. He sponsers the suicide bombers/terrorists in Isreal.

about 10,000 USD for every person killed goes to there familes. He even has he face printed on the gaint (charity comic refilef events) style cheques.

So he openly promotes his sponsership of terrorism.

Lets not forget this.

[Mbazzy]

I agree teh links with AL-Q are weak if much at all but lets not forgot that Saddam DOES sponser terrorism. He sponsers the suicide bombers/terrorists in Isreal.

So how should we tackle the stateterrorism of Israel?? Bomb Jeruzalem ?

Btw, I'm NOT anti-semitic, but strongly oppose Likoed style zionism , neither do I endorse terrorist acts nut the Israel stance is one of those flagrant showings of how the US handles similar issues but weights with different measures ...

[fluchtpunkt]

Originally posted by Primebase3

see, punkt but your getting the point instantly, you would help!
you wouldn't throw punches but you would call security/police ..the guy would struggle but in the end the guy would be out of the club the promotor would say something stupid and the party would go one.


...well to stick with the metaphor for one last thought:
i also know that in order to be able to get to the bully the security/police i called would have to (this is where it starts getting wierd) rape the girl first. then after having taken care of the bully, in order to keep the girl safe for the future the security/police marry her to a proteg? of theirs they think can 'protect' her (btw the bully they had to get rid of once was their proteg?, too). the police/security will let the new proteg? do pretty much what he likes with the girl - just as long as he makes sure they can have their part of the fun with her, too, & as long as she doesn't show scars... hell forget the scars! etc... etc... etc... knowing this would i call the police? hardly! ...the bully is stronger than me...so WHAT DO I DO?
(all in all i'm with brain's version of the metaphor though)

it all boils down to this: i do not believe that foreign governments can be trusted to bring peace to such conflicts by (aggressive) military intervention; having defeated the old oppressor i do not trust them to give freedom to the oppressed!
wars cost a lot of resources & any government that has invested in such an adventure will ultimately expect a payback (if there is no payback to be expected no government will bother to intervene - no matter the atrocities!) - which for the oppressed usually means staying oppressed!


imo military intervention in the middle east by europe/usa is part of the problem NOT part of the solution & we should just get the fuck out of there now.
for me the only way to help (as 'westerners') is by taking action as civilians or help-workers.

[syzygy]

Originally posted by Rovastar

I expect there are many thousnad on the 'Let Saddam take over the world by doing nothing march' throughout london on Saturday. (*sigh* you cannot have a pro-war march)




What makes you think that the march is about letting 'Saddam take over the world'? For me, the march is about saying to our government "We don't want to go to war unless we absolutely have to and certainly not without full international agreement"

Originally posted by Rovastar

I agree teh links with AL-Q are weak if much at all but lets not forgot that Saddam DOES sponser terrorism. He sponsers the suicide bombers/terrorists in Isreal.

about 10,000 USD for every person killed goes to there familes. He even has he face printed on the gaint (charity comic refilef events) style cheques.

So he openly promotes his sponsership of terrorism.

Lets not forget this.

Lets also not forget that the USA pays for the tanks, helicopters, missiles, and guns that are used to continue the illegal occupation of land that does not belong to israel. (Contrary to several UN resolutions but strangely, we're not about to attack Israel for being in defiance of the UN)

I can't condone suicide bombing in the slightest, especially against civillian targets, but noone is even claiming that Saddam actually buys the explosives - he supports widows and children left without parents.

Compare what he spends on this with what the USA spends on helping Israel to continue destroying civillian homes, ripping up what little infrastructure remains in Palestine and occupying land that the international community has told them to leave.

Does the West really have a right to claim a moral high ground?

Dan.

[stevefromNewcastle]

excellent post dan absolutly agree with you, both the US and Israel are in brech of UN resultions, (US is brech of human rights agreement over its terrorist captives kept on cuba). Israel is far more of a threat to middle east security then Iraq is

Steve

[Rovastar]

Originally posted by syzygy




I can't condone suicide bombing in the slightest, especially against civillian targets, but noone is even claiming that Saddam actually buys the explosives - he supports widows and children left without parents.

Dan.

Dan FFS he pays on how many ppl the terrorists kill that is fucking totally different to whta the US do. What more motiviativation do you need to kill inoccents the more you kill the more your family got paid. ANd you do not condone suicide bombers.

Geez and I thought no-one read teh bagdad times...........

I understand what the US do and you approve of what Saddam does. geezz. If the US had a policy of reward in pound notes for every person the Isrealis army kill they would be understandable uproar do fucking not put them in the same breath.

NMAybe the next the next terrorist attack in this country you would approve and give to the tin shakers supporting saddam hassan as he may have to give out a lot of money.

FFS this country. Now that is EGO warriors.

FFS Dan I know what the march is 'meant' to be about I bet if I asked what sensibel alturnative we should do iunstead they will say fuck all uneducated crusty tree huggers. I do not mind intellegent agueement a flower power protest is not. sorry.

you may as well be a tin shaker for saddam.

oops drunk agian.

[syzygy]

Okay Rova you are drunk so I'll make allowance for that. However, I think you are treating me a little unfairly here.

I never said I approved of Saddam Hussein giving money to the families of suicide bombers. I just pointed out that he doesn't fund the weapons themselves (which is, in my opinion a worse crime and one that the US and Britain are both guilty of) In fact, I specifically stated that I don't condone suicide bombings.

I think that the people who send suicide bombers out are just as evil as Western leaders who order the bombing of countries that are no direct threat to them.

BTW, where did you get the information that Saddam pays based on how many victims there are? Everything I have read on the topic has been pretty clear that the cheques are for a flat rate per suidice bomber that dies (It used to be $10,000 but was increased to $25,000 in 2002 - hence the increased press coverage of it)

I'll make myself clear one more time, so I can't be delinerately misinterpreted again - I don't condone this activity. If Saddam really wants to help the Palestinians (which I doubt - he has a less than friendly history with them) then he shoudl donate the money in a more contructive way.

It is clear that you want to conduct this debate by putting words into peoples mouths rather than by actually trying to find out what people think so I'm not sure what good this post will do. Nevertheless, I feel I have to try to get through to you.

On the subject of the march on Saturday, you are happy to write of everyone who will be attending as "uneducated crusty tree huggers". I can only assume that you are either very ignorant or trying (and failing) to be funny.

Yes, some people will march without really thinking about what viable alternatives to war are. However, the vast majority of people I have spoken to about the march have strong opinions about what should be done tha treally should be considered.

It may suprise you to know that most people dislike Saddam Hussein as much as they dislike Bush and Blair and would dearly love to see him removed.

Now, in the current situation, with inspectors in Iraq (hopefully with more in there if the Russia-France-Germany plan is taken up), how is Iraq going to develop any significant weapons of mass destruction?

If you believe the propaganda that 'bio weapons can be made in any kitchen and so could be made even with inspectors there' then how is getting rid of Saddam going to help? Terrorists will just use a Kitchen in London to make their nastys (oh hang on, they already did...)

Making weapons grade plutonium is a complicated process that requires big plants. That will not be able to happen under the inspectors noses.

So, why the rush to go to war now? Why not allow more time for the inspectors to do their job and for diplomatic solutions to be found.

That is what most people that I know who will be marching are feeling - it's not about doing nothing about people like Saddam Hussein. It is about thinking carefully and using war only as the very last resort.

It is also about not wanting to spend at least ?3.5 billion of UK tax payers money that could be spent on more positive things.

Everyone accepts that international terrrorists do not need the support of regimes such as Saddam Husseins to commit their crimes (look at Sep 11th for evidence of that). There are plenty of ex-cold war weapons (both US and Soviet) around the world that terrorists can use (e.g. the SAM used in Kenya recently) without them needing to deal with a leader who they despise. (read the latest transcript of Osama Bin Laden - really read it, not the deliberate misinterpretations - and you will see how he refers to Saddam in a negative light)

So, wouldn't the money that is allocated for futher destroying the infrastructure of Iraq be better spent on Intelligence (acknowledged by all the experts as the only real way to defeat international terrorism) or on building bridges with the people who are so deparate that they fall under the influence of people like Osama Bin Laden?

$40 BILLION could go a long way if it wasn't spend on devices for killing people.

Dan.

[syzygy]

The weapons inspectors report just released states that they are making progress.

How can we go to war while there is progress being made through peaceful means?

One other thing... the $40 Billion figure that I mentioned in my last post is only the cost of destroying stuff - it doesn't include the costs of rebuilding it all and keeping the peace afterwards. Estimates for these costs are around $200 billion.

Dan.

[holly]

please, please, please!

Europe, EU, France-Germany-Russia! Please make a stand against the US tyranny! We as US citizens are being robbed and destroyed. Civil rights in this country are being subversively revoked one after another under the excuse of "national security". We are under the yoke of a hostile government which is attacking OUR freedoms as well as other nations. PLEASE, do not think we are riding around in limosines and eating steak and wearing gold rings. THIS IS NOT TRUE!!

We have no healthcare. Prices for medicine are artificially inflated. We have no education! Our children cannot read because all budget money is channeled into a war machine that we do not want! Women's rights have been stripped away ? birth control and legal abortion ? any type of reproductive healthcare and education is constaintly threatened. Gays are criminalized and denied basic human rights of union, marriage, and adoption. Support for Blacks and other minorities to have the opportunity for a better education (affirmative action) have been abolished. Our government murders hundred each year on death row and prisons continue to be a growing and highly profitable industry. Our police are uneducated, cannot afford to support their families, and are denied the right to strike for better working conditions ? insuring abuses of and by the system. For the past twenty years our government has instructed us to eat unhealthy amounts of bread and cardboard because it makes the budgets for feeding school children so much cheaper ? resulting in a staggering epidemic of type-2 diabetes and obiesity, the worst in the world. This current administration was put into power against the voting public, and unconstitutionally handed the presidency by a prejudiced court. We fight from within, but we are oppressed and crippled. Even our right to protest is taken away under the propagandist "threat" of terrorism.

If you think the US government has a hostile foriegn policy, please remember it has just as "evil" a domestic agenda as well.

[vjpixylight]

This is very interesting! It is aimed at the american oil
consumption, but applies everywhere..
Check it out
and then support your local station that is on the
No imports list. The ending is interesting, but only works if
300,000,000 people in the US have e-mail......anyway
I'll be sending his to my friends overseas, and
telling everyone I know.
We CAN buy gasoline that's not from Middle east.
Gas rationing in the 80's worked even though we
grumbled about it. It might even be good for us!

The Saudis are boycotting American goods. We should
return the favor. An interesting thought is to boycott
their GAS. Every time you fill up the car, you can
avoid putting more money into the coffers of Saudi
Arabia. Just buy from gas companies that don't import
their oil from the Saudis.

Nothing is more frustrating than the feeling
that
every time I fill-up
the tank, I am sending my money to people who
are
trying to kill me, my
family, and my friends. I thought it might be
interesting for you to
know which oil companies are the best to buy gas
from and which major
companies import Middle Eastern oil (for the
period
9/1/00 - 8/31/01):

Shell............................205,742,000
barrels
Chevron/Texaco.........144,332,000 barrels
Exxon /Mobil................130,082,000
barrels
Marathon/Speedway...117,740,000 barrels
Amoco.........................62,231,000barrels
If you do the math at $30/barrel, these imports
amount to over $18
BILLION!

Here are some large companies that do not import
Middle Eastern oil:

Sunoco............. ..0 barrels
Conoco............. 0 barrels
Sinclair............... 0 barrels
Hess...................0 barrels
All of this information is available from the
Department of Energy and
each is required to state where they get their
oil
and how much they are
importing. They report on a monthly basis. Keep
this
list in your car;
share it with friends. Stop paying for
terrorism.............

But to have an impact, we need to reach
literally
millions of gas
buyers. It's really simple to do!! Now, don't
wimp
out at this point...keep
reading and I'll explain how simple it is to
reach
millions of people!!

I'm sending this note to about thirty people. If
each of you send it to
at least ten more (30 x 10 = 300) ... and those
300
send it to at least ten
more (300 x 10 = 3,000) ... and so on, by the
time
the message reaches
the sixth generation of people, we will have
reached
over THREE MILLION
consumers! If those three million get excited
and
pass this on to ten
friends each, then 30 million people will have
been
contacted! If it
goes one level further, you guessed it.....
THREE
HUNDRED MILLION PEOPLE!!!
Again, all you have to do is send this to 10
people.
How much would all
that take? If each of us sends this e-mail out
to
ten more people within
one day all 300 MILLION people could conceivably
be
contacted within the
next eight days!
:nod:

[Ollie]

too much anti-war ignorence

Just to add a little point about this war malarkey... now don't get me wrong i HATE war and feel that there could always be another solution, but seeing 1.5 Million people marching against this war INHO was wrong, at the end of the day do we know all the facts? who are we to judge such a complex situation like this from the comfot of our sofa watching sky/fox news...
to see people rant on and on about WMD and the oil aspect, without any concern for the basic human rights of Iraqi people is misguided. We should'nt attack iraq because we feel threatened that they may have WMD, or to reduce the oil price, but for the sake of removing years of oppression, a dictatorship and preventing a genocidal maniac, FUCk the oil, fuck bush, fuck all these protests, lets get down to the issues involving human lives, not economy.

Yes there are other methods of trying to push sadam out, but hav'nt we been trying these for years already, only for it to backfire on the iraqi people, this solves nothing, but makes them hungrier, and angrier at the western world, look at the fact that Saddam had 100% turn out at his election, and 100% of the vote for him, with children voteing for him in blood, this is why we need to go to war, as i'm sure he did'nt get all his votes by simply asking the people nicely.

imho we should be protesting in force aginst Sadam and his regime, not trying to protect it, ...what has come of this world :(

now i'll say it again, pls don't think i am trying to war monger, but more just voicing my anger at people who fight for causes with out addressing the situation fully.

I could go on and on about this thread and some of the very good posts here, but i'll leave it at that, though just to say some pretty good arguments in here, maybe the sooner we get this war over with, and the war on terrosim the sooner we can all return to cival rights normality. (huumm like that'll ever happen, the more we fight against this casue the more people will rise up against us, x infinity)

so ppl. pls change your banner from NO war for Oil, too WAR 4 freedom of the iraqi PEOPLE, to run around selfishly thinking that all this fuss is purley about the price of gas your puttin in your car, get out of your narrowminded microcosom, look at the bigger picture, then look in your heart and soul and know that if we go to war it will hopefully remove the 40 odd years of dictatorship, and undo what WE f'ing creating in the first place.

Then maybe we could stop our own governemts digresion in to a police state

sorry just saw this again and had to add it.

Posyed by brain
just try to imagine living in some foreign country, somewhere in the middle east or the far east.

there is another country, telling you
- you have no right to build mass destruction weapons (but they do)
- you have no right to consider military action on another country (but they do)
- you have show UN inspectors everything they ask for (but they won't)
- you have to play strictly by the rules of the UN (but they won't)
- you are not allowed to freely trade the products of your country (although they talk a lot about "free markets")
- they created a death list with people from your country on it (and call you linked to terrorists)
- you are to be associated with evil and somehow your culture is inferior anyway


...to be honest, i'd tell them to fuck off, because i wouldn't take orders from such hypocrite bastards. who could obey their orders without feeling degraded?

Valid points sort of but HELLO BRAIN, look at what Sadam is doing to his own people, because of this we impose those restrictions on him, to knowledegely let sadam do what the hell he likes, ie kill kurds, build wdm, starve his people, and not try to do anything to stop that (by treating him like say, spain) is wrong man, to fairly trade with a country that has morals like that is stooopid.

i'm gonna make my own list,

just imagine living in a country where....
-women are still considered inferior
-if you do not vote for Sadam not only will you be killed but also your family
-if you relase any information to the west not only will you be killed but also your familey up to and including your 6th cousin
-forigen food aid intented for you is being destroyed dumped or sold, either way dos'nt get any where nera the people it should
-your dictator is an unbelivable racist facist killing maniac, who has no problem ordeing the excecution of say 20,000 kurds.
- tests his weapons on a mass scale against his own people.
- blah blah blah, the list could go on and on.

there is anothr list that should be created aboiut all the new indignities and removal of cival rights that have come of this and placed upon the people by our own governments.

if sadam was democratically elected, + the people wanted him there, then i would say leave the fucker alone, but this is not the case people want him out, but even the slightest mention of something like that by an iraqi will get them killed, so they need help, and they need help from US, (not nesseccarily the usa).

because of what i have said here trust me i do not really support our gov, they are swines who at the moment seem to be trying to screw evrything up for evryone, so many crazy new laws etc...

peace out guys

Ollie

p.s sleepytom, i sgree with your point in the best way would be for the iraqi people to uprise against him like with milsovic, but this is impossiable in this kind of state, to even mention something bad about Sadam can get you killed, to begin to gather lots of people to uprise would be nigh on impossible because of all the spys etc... eg, 10 poeple 2 are spys, 1 talks about rising up to the others, the spys hear this, 1 agrees with it and would also like to see sadam go, but if he did'nt tell the bosses about the conversation, the the other spy will, resulting in his death aswell. these people are trapped.

pixylight - good idea, but that won't get rid of Bush or Sadam so whats the point, all it will do is expand the non imopting oil comapines beyond there capacity, so they in turn will have to import to meet demand and thus expand there empire, so in 20 yrs time we will have to go against them aswell... hhuumm

[Primebase3]

was staying away but ollie just rounded up my exact feelings with this situation "spot on' was it? yeah :) next time I'll stay away from the metaphors :D ;)

ps: did join in with my rally (short because of a audio appointment) also seen a cool action from japan: students singing a song with bush faces on getting all stupid, I just imagined bush looking stunned to his big tv set....priceless.

[syzygy]

MysticalFish - what makes you think that any US/UK war against Iraq will have anything to do with liberating the Iraqi people?

What makes you think that this time, the West will do anything different to what they did every other time they 'liberated' a country in the Middle East? (i.e. put a new dictator in place who treats the people just as bad but is friendlier to the West)

Who do you think helped install Saddam as Iraqi leader?

You talk about the people on the march not being informed enough to decide what is right, and yet it seems to me that you need to read up on some Middle East history.

The West has intervened in the middle east many times and every time it has only made things worse for people.

As I said in an earlier post, if you really want to do some good, there are better ways to spend $200 billion than using it to destoy the infrastructure of a country. From what I've heard, there are many, many people in Iraq who agree with this.

I work with an Iraqi who is certainly not pro-Saddam but who is very much against his friends and family being put at risk by a war. I've spoken to him at length about the fact the western media has long given the impression that the Iraqi people want a war to depose Saddam when in fact that is a convenient simplification. They want Saddam gone but they understand that a US led war to remove him will just result in another equally bad regime.

How many Iraqis have you spoken to yourself?

Dan.

[Ollie]

Fair point i have'nt spoken to any Iraqis...

I belive that in my post i said we need to go and try and fix the problems that WE created, trust me i know all about how we drew and re-drew all the borders the middle east to suit our needs, mate we drew the lines so that each county had different ethic origins to ensure an everlasting confilct, and keep us involved i the oil game, it is now time to sort out some of OUR mistakes, not just let them carry on. Beliving that these people will sort themselves out is some what foolish, not beause there intelligence, or apathy but simply because they can't, the people have no voice in there own country.
We helped put him there, so imho to turn around when its all gone tits up and not help get him out, is plain wrong.

Put this into prespective if the media concentrated there efforts, and say got loads fo footage of the Kurd's massacre and other attrocities to the iraqi people and played it 24/7, don't you think that we would have huge demonstations protesting to get sadam out, cause i do. Unfortuantly we are all far too easliy swayed by what we see on tv, and some more than others

the media in my eyes are worse than any government. basically what i was saying about the protesters is that the majority of them will have based there opinions (and thus a will to protest) purley from warped information passed down through the mass media, all those news flashes, and updates on the hour every hour, you can sit for 24 hours straight and see nothing but war in the news channels, the media are screwballs who rarely show anywhere near 25% of the real story, what they do show is sensationalalised reports designed to increase ratings and spread very biased views. And unfortunatly not enough people read between the lines (if they read atall, i mean 1million people buy The Sun everyday in th UK, now that can't be good)

I would love to see a 1.5million man march against the media in trying to get them to tell us the whole truth and nothing but the truth.

i agree there are much better things to spend 200 billion dollars on (but is'nt there always), but i also think that we have much more important issues to protest about, affecting everyone of our people at home.

one other thing for all the people who don't want a war to start : when did it ever stop, we have systimatically bombed iraq every week since the gulf war, is it better to let this carry on till sadam dies, or should'nt we just finish the job and try and return peace to a very war torn and starving country.

Enuf said

Ollie

[syzygy]

Again - what makes you think that this war will actually achieve lasting peace and an improvement in the situation of the Iraqi people?

Your point of view seems to be predicated on an assumption that this war would make things better for the normal Iraqi. The reason that I and many others marched yesterday is that we don't believe that it would.

I have seen absolutely no indications that the current US administration has got the best interests of the Iraqi people in mind. (In fact, I see lots of indications that they have other things in mind...)

If they really wanted to show that they are doing the best thing for the Iraqi people, they could be more clear about what will happen to Iraq after a war. Instead, they make vague proclamations about 'freedom' and 'liberation' without being specific.

The Iraqi opposition in exile today stated that they don't like what they are seeing about what the US will do with Iraq after getting rid of Saddam.

So, I can see your point that sometimes the best thing to do is to use military force to improve a situation BUT I see absolutely no evidence to say that this war would make anything any better for the Iraqi people.

I believe that miliary force does sometime need to be used. The correct (and only way in my opinion) way for this to happen is through agreement in the UN, in accordance with UN rules (did you know that 'regime change' is illegal under the UN charter) and with very well defined aims and plans for the future.

If military intervention is the only way to make things better for Iraqis then why can't we wait a little longer, have proper agreements about what will happen in Iraq after Saddam is gone, do everything possible to avoid civillian death and suffering, and move ahead with full international support?

The US and UK governments don't want to do any of this because this war has nothing to do with making things better for Iraqis and everything to do with serving the interests of a clique of powerful Americans.

If a war won't achieve what you want and will just cause more suffering then I think the only logical poistion is to be against it.

Dan.

[brain]

maybe within the next months saddam will be "removed" by the western allies. guess what the basic changes in iraq will be? maybe some top ten heads will be exchanged, replaced by slimy second-row creatures who kiss the US ass and take the opportunity to get in power and expoit the iraqui people themselves.

i don't believe in "freedom" to be installed. the us themselves talk about a military regime to take charge and the massive use of current government structures. what do you expect from that? the new iraqui military government will face kurds who want an independent state, several radical moslem groups who want different sorts of religious regimes, neigbors eager to get the hands on some land and some oil, potential greedy warlords, some weakened democratic opposition etc etc. guess how they will handle the situation? force, autoritarian structues, suppression, violence.

the major change for us will be that the new regime will have a better press, and will be sold as a "sucess" to us. just think of the poor afghan people. maybe kabul is a quiet place (the western troop's main concern there is their own safety). in the countryside VERY little has changed - warlords in power, no freedom, little human rights, no rights for women. only there's no more news coverage.

don't get me wrong. saddam is a dictator, and dictators should not exist. but it is very likely that he will be replaced by a puppet who will have blood on it's hands in no time. the west will not tolerate a unstable situation in iraq, the country breaking apart or being taken over by radical moslems. the effects of the ensuing supression will not better the lives of the iraqui people.

[PilotX]

Originally posted by MysticalFish

Just to add a little point about this war malarkey... now don't get me wrong i HATE war and feel that there could always be another solution, but seeing 1.5 Million people marching against this war INHO was wrong, at the end of the day do we know all the facts? who are we to judge such a complex situation like this from the comfot of our sofa watching sky/fox news...


No. No. No. Not the case. Those active on the left will always find firsthand sources. If you want info on the mideast, forget about the media and ask Israeli's, palestinians, iraqi refugees, volunteers who have worked in the mideast, look at thinktank reports. Why is there the thought that the media outlets who are pro-war are giving any truer information? Not that I dispute them, but where have the facts you've given come from? sky/fox news?

If the US wanted to help Iraqi's, they would have supported the uprisings in Iraq after the 91 war. The US plans to install their own general to run Iraq after this war. Not, as far as I know, a mention of how to move to a democracy.
Why? democracy in Iraq leads to the probability of the establishemnt of Kurdistan in the North; this in turn leads to the KLA (Kurdish Liberation Army) in Turkey starting to fight to join the state, and in Syria and (shit I need a map now), Iran (? theres a fourth country there, but I can't remember which), more instability, and problems in a NATO member, and beloved ally of the US. It's not going to happen. The US does not want Kurdistan to exist because of this. This war is not, and whilst US led (either by themselves or through the UN), will not be about human/civil rights for Iraqis.

propoganda exists on all sides in any political argument. Which someone believe is their choice, but make no mistake that the only truths come from people who have lived in the situation in discusion. Politicians, the media; not to be trusted. Think tanks are generally good, but be sure to look at their history, and to find a few different ones to examine. But most of all, find those people who have lived there, and speak to them.

Just another ill-informed viewpoint, apparently.

Tom
syzygy visuals

[Primebase3]

I'm just seeing a thing on dutcht tv about afghanistan... for years kiting was banned by the taliban as well as the internet flashforward to the present I see people laughing on the streets and kids playing with kites and people making satellites out of tin cans to get there indian channels on the tv...it's very simple but it got me to think as well : what if nobody helped the people would they still be doing all the stuff we take as granted?


shit did it again: sorry guys leaving this thread again just wanted it to say the above isn't even similar to the oily situation but It just made me think..gotta split !

peace for everyone,

[Ollie]

I agree with most of your points guys, and just wnted to say a few things, your absolutly right if Sadam is toppled thhey will replace like 10 people who are sympathetic to the UN etc, but is'nt this the case in every goverment, so they would be suffering no worse than us. (Raise your hands if you think Bush was democratically elected!!!). This is politics, its never fair, its never right, but i belive that even this solution is better than what they have at the moment, because at least in this situation if the people arn't happy whith whats going on they'll hopefully be less fearfull to speak out and act against it.
I think the Iraqi's would have a much easier time pushing out the west once Sadam has been removed, there are no uprisings against Him, people are scared of him and his brutality. They know that the US won't kill 5000 people with chemical weapons in revenge.

If the US wanted to help Iraqi's, they would have supported the uprisings in Iraq after the 91 war

WE DID!!!

I see more talk about uprisings, have him taken out quietly etc... we have tried this many times before, and it always fails the people high up and close to Sadam are far too loyal, you only need to look at the Mossad attempts. I we could take him out quietly and simply we would have done it a long time ago.

Your examples of what could happen within the middle east after Sadam's gone are unfortuanltly too close to the truth. But not doing anything do not mean that these conficts are not going on, these are conflicts that WE created a long time ago, and because of the nature of these people will carry on indefinatly.

fyi i have been a media student, and i refuse to gather any information pertaining to real world events from news on the TV, because it's bollox basically, like i said they compress these everso complex situations in to 30s new flashes, and people take them for the absolute truth with out ever looking at the other side.

don;t get me wrong here again, i do not belive that everyone is mis informed Tom, but i think you wil have to agree that the majority of this population is mis informed, either though apathy/ignornace or palin stupidity, but there are far to many of these people, do a poll for yourself ask random people semi intellignet questions about the war, and i garuntee the majority of them won't have a clue, they are just sheep following the crowd.
And this goes all across the board, eg. the states, the people really pushing this war, and there closetest ally in the situation the UK, ok now i'm sure you've probably seen it, but tv presenter going across to the states and asking the general pubilc if they knew who the primeminister of the UK was, no one had a fucking clue, if thats not ignorange or stupidity then what is. Should these people really be trying to make valid statements!!! when they don't even know who there closest ally in the world is.

sorry if i offened anyone here, i am not calling annyone on these forums stupid, because all of you reading this have show an interest in somthing beyond the box in the lounge, and that my friends is a genuine rarity, you people are reading and re-posting your thoughts, you are thinking about the situation as indiviuals, and this is great, thats why i come here to learn and share off other people. Maybe it's just Plymouth, but the majority of blokes that i come across, don't watch the news, read the sun, have no interests, watcch the box, have a pint in the pub, go to work, and that unfortuantly for them is it. (before anyone says it, they are not my mates, i seek people who have some thing to say about somthing real not 'corrr did ya see the pair on that one'!!!)


Afganistan ain't no uotpia but it sure as hell is better than it was before! They now have a freedom of expression, which was not there before, you know the simple things that we all take for granted like being able to listen to music.

But most of all, find those people who have lived there, and speak to them.
Should'nt his apply to everyone, inc the millions of marchers trying to keep the situation out there the same.
frankly i would love to sit down and talk to some Iraqi people, but i don't see many of them that have managed to escape.

Lets face it everyone the world at the moment is going to Shit no matter what we try and do about it. You think Blair gives a damn about 1.5million people marching, Bush certianly dose'nt (hell he would even let the americans have protests he cares so little).

The funny thing is guys that i did'nt post here until now becasue i belive in what was being said before, i was very anti-war, and it was all being said here already, so there was nothing ot add. i went out on sat to the local demonstrations because i don't like war/death, but after talking to lots and lots of people there i was stunned at how fricking ingnorant they all were, people who were nonstop chanting slogans, and teaching there kids chants, but did'nt have a clue what they were really saying, so to me it was like mass propaganda by the blind. No one there mentioned any of the real issues, only headlines, and other media slogans, no one there had anyother solutions to the problem, becasue they simply did'nt know the whole story. (like us all i suppose).

I'm not saying YES to war what i'm really saying is No don't just let it just continue, and to the people who are saying NO to War do they really understand what they are standing for, when i mentioned to an old couple in the march some of the atrocities that Sadam has done they looked shocked/surprised, i think that these people should have known exactly what they were marching for, not simply NO WAR = NO DEATH = HAPPYNESS FOR ALL, cause its all bollox.

In fact this whole disscusion if completly bollox, beacuse at the end of the day we have no real concept of whats going on, we know only the half of it. (imagine the intel that Blair and Bush have). We have no power, and our voices fall on deaf ears. I know, i know bring the people together, form a prostest, show your voice en-mass, but this still never works, i would take half the country to get up off there arses and protest before anything was listened too, and that my friends is impossible because of the apathy and ignornage of the people, and you know sometimes i wish i was one of the ignorangt people, cause as the saying goes "ignornace is bliss"... aaahhh just imagine i could be staring at Jorden on page 3, chatting about her features with co-workers, instead i give a damn about the real world and whats going on, and sometimes i really really wish that i did'nt.

Sorry for another massive long post, but i seem to be the only person supporting the effort to get people to realise what they are protesting for, and there is alot to be said.

Peace

[syzygy]

Two points about Afganistan:

* The war in Afganistan was nothing like what is planned for Iraq. There was no widescale destruction on the infrastucture (mostly because there was very little) and the Taliban was removed by a primarily Agfani collalition.


* Don't set too much store by reports from Afganistan. I know someone who was in the UN forces in Kabul. He said that camera friendly events such as kite flying and women removing their Burqas were regularly staged for the Western media in Kabul but that in most of the country, nothing much has changed (or shows any signs of changing). The Northern Alliance treat their rivals just as harshly as the Taliban did and the living conditions of normal people are not improving.

Dan.

[PilotX]

Hey MysticalFish; I didn't intend for what I said to be pointed at you. As it was a reply to your post I guess there was really no avoiding it, but it was mostly in agreement, except that it's not just those anti-war but also those pro-war who can be misinformed. As for finding Iraqi people, perhaps Birmingham has recieved alot more Iraqi refugees then other places. I've met 3 or 4 whilst working for a construction agency, and spoke to them about the mideast.

As far as I knew after the 91 war, the US called for uprisings, said they would support them and didn't. I agree that taking out Saddam on the quiet is not an option, or they would have done it already.

I don't disagree with you about the general population, just the people I spoke to on the march seemed well informed, or at least knew that they needed to find as many different sources of information as possible.

Unfortunately there are no answers to these questions, and facts can be used to prove anything in the social world (or rather the facts are available to do so), only thing that matters is values, and it is the values of peace that I was marching for. There is no doubt in my mind that there will be a war on Iraq. Hopefully Iraq and the region will end up in a better situation because of it. But I'm incredibly sceptical about that. I think we are more likely to repeat the mistakes of the past, not correct them. That is my problem with the war.

Hope that no-one takes anything I say personally, politics is about opinions, and whilst I get annoyed sometimes, I don't see politics as a reason to dislike anyone. Only racism, sexism and homophobia will make me truly angry at an individual; nothing else, certainly not views on the situation at hand.

Tom

[Ollie]

Hey guys, thanx for the mature debate, this makes a difference to the people i talk to around here (maybe i should move).
I hope i did'nt seem to confrontantional. :)

http://www.petroleumworld.com/sati71302.htm

Heres a good article i just found, thought people would be interested to read it, depending on how much they know already. Its an interview with Gore Vidal.

Check it out, it's not an article supporting my above posts, but more an oberservation on the american govement. Intersting reading for those not too clued up on what the Americans have done and are doing around the world.

[syzygy]

No worries MysticalFish - you don't seem too confrontational at all. You won't make an enemy of me by having a different point of view.

I think you have underestimated the level to which many people have really thought about the situation and marched as more than a knee-jerk response.

That is understandable if you've had the opportunity to discuss these things with people who have got as much information as they can and thought long and hard about it before marching.

I agree that the big problem that anyone who is anti-war needs to think about is 'what can be done instead?'

I don't have a problem with people protesting based on pricipal, but I personally would never be happy to protest against something unless I could at least imagine an alternative to it.

My thoughts on the matter are that a negotiated solution is teh way out of this, to include something like the following terms:

* Lifting of sanctions against Iraq
* Guarantees that aid will be delivered to the people who need it, verified by international observers
* Guarantees that nuclear, chemical and biological programmes in Iraq are halted and dismantled, verified by ongoing inspections
* Guarantees that Iraq will improve its human rights records, again verified by international observers
* A guarantee that Saddam Hussein will not be threatened by West-sponsored regime change attempts or recriminations for past actions (this one is controversial but I think it is neccessary)
* International investment to improve the infrastructure and living conditions in Iraq
* An agreement that the international community will defend Iraq against any agression it is subjected to (in order that it does not need its own weapons programmes)


Now, if this sort of plan is 'spun' right:

* Saddam gets to be a hero with the Iraqi people, getting sanctions lifted and causing the people who need aid to get it
* Western Leaders get to be the men who brought peace to Iraq
* Conditions in Iraq improve dramatically as international investment comes in and observers keep an eye on things
* The West is seen to be helping rather than damaging Iraq
* Weapons of mass destruction will not get into terrorist hands from Iraq at least

Now, the big thing about this plan is that it involves using the carrot of sanctions being lifted rather than the stick of miliary action.

Surely Saddam Hussein is going to be willing to negotiate a settlement if it involves money pouring into Iraq (and it is done in a way that lets him maintain face)

I'm not an international diplomat but, from what I've seen, this sort of solution hasn't even been publically discussed.

Why not?

Dan.

[wellREDman]

heres a nice site that puts the whole peace movement in nice perspective,
very moving

http://www.hyperreal.org/~dana/

[Ollie]

Nice photos, very impressive stuff.

Off topic, but something struck me when looking through all those photos, and i wanted to share it.

If only we could get this many people to really care about the environment and actually try and make a difference with things like recycling, energy effiency and environmental education we could actually have an impact on saving the world. Unfortunatly very few of us are prepared to change our lifestyles to protect the world on a global scale, and reduce things like dependance on oil and other fossil fuels, and thus the need for conflicts like in Iraq. I only wish this many people marched when the USA pulled out of things like the Kyoto protocol. In time we might regret worrying so much about wars, whilst not concentrating on keeping our planet (home to everyone) safe from pollution, and destruction. Things need to change cause when the develloping world catchs up with our life styles this place is gonna choke!!!

[Rovastar]

:) About the march

DOes anyone else think it is funny the CND where one of the major ogranisers on the anti-war march.

When one of the reason of threating war is to disarm Saddams Nuclear weapons. Surely they should be on the pro-war side. :);):D

[KillingFrenzy]

Chirping crickets.
Tumbleweed rolls by.

[Primebase3]

Because of the opinions methinks , the conversation has strong opinions that can't be tumbled (either sides of the debate) that's why the conversations , go in to a loop, rewind and go in a loop
in a loop
in a loop
rewind
in a loop
in a loop
loop
loop
loop
(zzzkt)
in a loop
in a loop
rewind
in a loop
in a loop
loop
loop
loop
(zzzkt)
in a loop
in a loop
rewind
in a loop
in a loop
loop
loop
loop
(zzzkt)
in a loop
in a loop
rewind
in a loop
in a loop
loop
loop
loop
(zzzkt)

loo(Bazzzzzzzzzkt) well you get the idea.


peace and is that everyone agrees on.

cu later guys

ps: fuck I'm sad ..saturday night and instead of going out I'm masking something for a film for a set next week. I need help ...
greetz from a workaholic.

[Lara]

Changing times, changing sides . . .

I know this is such an obvious point, but if Bush and Blair really hold the moral highground with clear consciences then why can't they freely give UN inspectors more time?

The US and UK have changed sides so many times in history, installing puppet governments and then ousting them, maybe the western world should learn from their mistakes . . . why is that so difficult?

The attitudes to terrorism are also really telling: maybe it was easy to support groups like the IRA when the cause is portrayed as a heroic fight of the underdog against a greater oppressive enemy, but now that terrorism has hit home in the US so-called 'rogue states' must have enforced regime change?

I am the last person to condone terrorists in any shape or form, but demonising them is not helpful and may well produce more young people wanting to die for their cause. The foreign policy of the western nations has to be inclusive rather than protectionist, because British and American imperialist attitudes will feed hatred rather than dispersing it.

Maybe we should embark on an approach based on diplomacy and political pressure rather than violence, brutality and oppression, and an approach based on eduction so we don't incite racial hatred in our own children because of this demonisation of the 'axis of evil' through media and popular culture.

[cubas]

"We are on the verge of a global transformation. All we need is the right major crisis and the nations will accept the New World Order."

David Rockefeller

.....................................

"The high office of the President has been used to foment a plot to destroy the American's freedom and before I leave office, I must inform the citizen of this plight."

President John Fitzgerald Kennedy - In a speech made to Columbia University on Nov. 12, 1963, ten days before his assassination.

.....................................

"The world can therefore seize the opportunity [Persian Gulf crisis] to fulfill the long-held promise of a New World Order where diverse nations are drawn together in common cause to achieve the universal aspirations of mankind."

George Herbert Walker Bush

.....................................

"We live in a dirty and dangerous world. There are some things the general public does not need to know and shouldn't. I believe democracy flourishes when the government can take legitimate steps to keep its secrets, and when the press can decide whether to print what it knows."

-- Katherine Graham, Washington Post publisher and Bilderberger

.....................................


"We must speak the truth about terror. Let us never tolerate outrageous conspiracy theories concerning the attacks of September the 11th, malicious lies that attempt to shift the blame away from the terrorists themselves, away from the guilty."

George W Bush speaking before the UN

.....................................

"This is a moment to seize. The kaleidoscope has been shaken, the pieces are in flux, soon they will settle again. Before they do, let us re-order this world around us."

Tony Blair, Tuesday, 2 October, 2001

.....................................

"Other countries will not take lectures about the so-called new world order from a British prime minister who cannot deliver basic public services run by his own failing government."

Tony Blair, 5th January, 2002

.....................................

"Evidence linking these Israelis to 9/11 is classified. I cannot tell you about evidence that has been gathered. It's classified information."

US official quoted in Carl Cameron's Fox News report on the Israeli spy ring and its connections to 9-11.

[cubas]

http://www.davidicke.net/symbolism/government/Bush-Illuminati.jpg

Family photography of George Herbert Walker BUSH, taken in 1986 + Il Venerdi di Repubblica ;, n048 / 18-11-1988). You will note that the pyramid, which is not in Bush hands by accident, is black in it lower part, shining of gold color at the upper zone to symbolize, like on the 1 dollar bill, the masonic light which must illuminate the dark inferior stratas of the pyramid, where are living the goyms.

Bush is an eminent face of the International Establishment, member of the "Order" modern reappearance of the Bavarian Illuminati, of the C.F.R., of the Trilateral Commission, of the Pilgrims Society. 330 degree of the Scotish Rite (Information given by the Ex-Grand Master of the Italian Masonry, the 330 degree Giuliano Di Bemardo). Bush is also a W.A.S.P. (White Anglo-Saxon Protestant), an americain convinced himself of his racial origins and that his religious beliefs place him above all other men.

:)

[Mbazzy]

The following email was just sent to you via NotInOurNameMusic.com.

From:

Mbazzy/Didier Legein

--------------------------------------------------------

This email comes at you from Not In Our Name, Saul Williams, DJ Spooky, Coldcut, Ninjatune, and Synchronic Records - who have created some powerful music and art AGAINST THE WAR.

Time is short, and we need your help to spread this art and message far and wide!

At the site below, we have provided the music to download FREE as MP3s, graphics, text, banners - everything you need to make this travel everywhere:

http://www.notinournamemusic.com

We ask you to do 2 things right away:

1) DOWNLOAD THE SONGS AND GRAPHICS FROM THE SITE ABOVE. BLAST! them anywhere and everywhere you can, including websites, friends, peer-to-peer networks, radio shows, at protests and rallies. Write about them. Make your own remixes (downloads include a vocal track). Whatever's clever!

2) TELL EVERYONE YOU KNOW ABOUT THESE SONGS. Forward this email to friends, and motivate their friends to do same.

Please help us make this message of peace and solidarity go viral!!

Another world is possible, and we pledge to make it REAL!!!

PEACE.

------------------------------------------

LATEST PIRATE TRACK BY SAUL, CHECK IT OUT:

\"No Man's Land Radio\"

Available for free for download at
http://www.notinournamemusic.com/mp3/saul_freestyle_nomans_land.mp3


--------------------------------------------------------

[cubas]

another antiwar stuff:
http://www.stopbush2000.com

US controls:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/usa/story/0,12271,916508,00.html


There are 80% of people against war in our country due to public opinion research, but our fucking government supports Bush.

[Mbazzy]

..director Michael Moore adresses an open letter to "little Bush" ...
http://www.michaelmoore.com/