TV coverage

[deepvisual]

Q.
I'm not paid by this band to use my visuals, beyond a turn up fee - ie they never paid to have any content made for them. All the content used was made by me. We are doing a live outdoor show this summer.
Now I'm told the BBC want to show some of the gig on TV.

I'm sure I should be due a royalty for the use of my footage for broadcast.

anyone know more about this??

I'm pretty sure that if I had been paid to create content specifically for this show that would be included in the price and if any fee was due the band would get it. However if the footage was just licensed to the band for onstage use, The BBC should pay to use it for broadcast.

G

[evomedia]

Yes theoretically they should pay for licensing, however if they will is another matter.

Probably will come down to what you provided in ways of smallprint.

Did you have a contract with the band?
Did you stimpulate usage terms? Or include anything about intellectual property rights? or include copyright information?

I would contact the band and mention your terms, and state that the bbc need to clear your content before broadcast, be upfront and honest. See if you can get the contact of who the band has been in discussion with.

[sleepytom]

TBH i would not expect the BBC to pay you extra for visuals that are just appearing on stage as part of the set. If they were to include your visuals by using a lineout of your mixer then i would expect you'd be able to get some money.

You may be able to get some extra for the TV appearance but it depends on your relationship with the band and their management.

Either way i would not expect this money to come from the BBC - they will be televising the concert and won't want to start making agreements to pay extra to the lighting man for the lighting and the video guy for the visuals and the carpenters for the stage set etc etc.

you need to speak with the bands management and see what deals they are able to do. if they like you you might get a bit of extra cash out of them for the TV performance - if they don't like you they might take the view that its simpler not to have visuals at all for the TV show.

bear in mind the management will often do cheaper deals for TV shows based on the fact the band get some good publicity - the last thing they want is an awkward VJ trying to get extra money for being on telly!

[Anyone]

In the UK, royalty payments from sound or video broadcasts
will most likely come from either PRS or VPL.

In your case Deep,
how it probly will work out is BBC pays a bulk fee to PRS
for its whole month of royalty payments
then PRS will take care of spliting that fee into all the recipients,
including you. (BBC will not pay you directly)

but you need to be signed up to PRS prior to your event...

Anyhoo, good luck with the gig, when is it?

Oli

[deepvisual]

TBH i would not expect the BBC to pay you extra for visuals that are just appearing on stage as part of the set.

- they will be televising the concert and won't want to start making agreements to pay extra to the lighting man for the lighting and the video guy for the visuals and the carpenters for the stage set etc etc.

- the last thing they want is an awkward VJ trying to get extra money for being on telly!


its a difficult scenario..

the conversation went ---
Bands manager asking if we were showing any copyright footage and I said yes. the entire show is copyright to me and if the BBC want to show it they need to talk to me about how much they can afford especially as I am not being paid by the band for the use of my footage.

now , If I was showing apocalypse now as part of the show without permission, Francis Ford capolla would want paying if the BBC pointed their cameras at it - to the point where He would sue them for use without a license.


yet somehow it seems greedy for me to ask for payment from the BBC for them to use my footage..

but why should I provide the BBC with a free TV program? I dont think its being greedy asking the tv for payment, I think it is an important part of the ownership of footage and people should ask for payment for broadcast rights.

For example. In new york, the moment a camera is pointed at the stage in any venue, the union get a $15,000 dollar payment and the crew go onto triple time.

I dont think I am being awkwards, I think the BBC is trying to take the piss...


there is an attitude in concert work, that because you let the band use the footage, tehy somehow own it. but nothing could be further from the truth. if it was a movie of mine that was being shown no one would think twice about me asking for payment for it to be shown, so why should a visual performance set be any different?

[Anyone]

if you would show Appocalypse Now
BBC would pay ??? to VPL
and VPL would pay $$$ to Francis Ford Coppola (him living in the states)

[deepvisual]

well, I think this licensing issue is a subject that Vjs should become more aware of especially if they work with bands
if the TV use your house as a backdrop they have to pay you a location fee.
in the same way, if they use your visuals as a backdrop, they can't broadcast it without your permission and should pay a license fee to do so.

same thing if the band go on to make a DVD of the concert that then sells millions.
They can't just assume that because you let them use your footage it becomes theirs to sell. They would certainly sue you to hell and back if you tried to do the same thing with their music without permission...

its very important to state from the start that onstage visuals are not owned by the band and are not theirs to re-sell or re-license without your consent.
specifying limited use at the start of a relationship will help clarify things later.

and seeings you asked.. gig is Glasgow, T in the Park -July

[dongbamage]

I reckon ure 100% right m8

and I'm sure u will be paid if u manage to arrange this PRS malarkey in time

[sleepytom]

well it all comes down to contracts...

if you don't have one then the band will assume that they own all the footage you use for their show and will try and not pay you for using it on dvd / tv appearances. I'm not entirely sure where you stand without a written contract as the law is a grey area and i'm not a lawyer! but you can and should argue that the footage is 100% your own property and that the work you have done for the band is the "live performance" of your video footage (this becomes a harder argument if the band has paid you for production work)..

if you do have a written contract you need to check what your contracted to provide - hopefully it will say something like "live video performance" but it could well include clauses which give the band the rights to the footage (depending on how savvy the bands contract lawyers are)

if i were writing a contract now for visuals with a band i would specify that the visuals are for the context of a live performance only "any inclusion in music videos, live DVD's, Webcasts, TV appearances or other usage beyond the scope of a live performance in front of an audience will be subject to a further licensing fee"

the point is that you want to get the bands management / record company to pay you an extra fee for TV usage - not the route of trying to negotiate a fee with the BBC or whoever. - the VPL / PRS etc are shite unless your being constantly played on BBC1 you won't see any significant money from these organisations (they pool all the fees and the distribute the vast majority of the fees to the most visible artists)

anyway i recon the most likely way of getting some money is though the management of the band (who will in turn pass this cost onto the broadcasters or offset it against the extra income generated by the publicity of the TV show) - trying to directly deal with the broadcasters will most likely not get you anywhere - you could well cause so much of a problem that they simply decide not to show any of your bands set! (this is actually a real issue in the context of a festival - if they were televising a whole concert by your band you'd have a stronger position to bargain from)

[holly]

DV Magazine has just published an article (http://www.dvmag.com/features/features_item.jhtml?category=Archive&articleId=189400331) that might very closely apply to your situation (free subscription required). The article is from the "other" point of view: a documentary filmmaker who captures an incidental song on the radio. Scroll down to example #3 "Capturing Copyrighted Media Content in the Process of Filming Something Else". The article suggests that (according to USA copyright law) your situation probably would NOT constitute fair use (I know UK has different laws).

I think you have a valid case. The band is not likely to be very sympathetic that you are rocking their boat, but the broadcasters could always dub over your visuals (at a cost) if you flat out refused.... Stand your ground, consider a fair payment, and make a reasonable offer. If they refuse you should talk to a lawyer.

[SteveG]

I think it's too late and should have been thought of and included in the initial contract. Personally I would be pushing for what I could recover from the situation ie good prominent billing on the credits that could bring you more work. If you're gear is in shot for the gig a good banner wouldnt go amiss:)
One to think about tho doing visuals for up and coming young bands...you never know where they will end up........Any bands out there want a VJ? :)

[Amukidi]

if i were writing a contract now for visuals with a band i would specify that the visuals are for the context of a live performance only "any inclusion in music videos, live DVD's, Webcasts, TV appearances or other usage beyond the scope of a live performance in front of an audience will be subject to a further licensing fee"

Pretty much prevents this happening again, probably a bit late in this case, for all the reasons others have mentioned.
If you want my opinion, I'd settle for this one being a "loss leader" at this stage, and get down to writing a contract for next time. Intrigued to know why the band are only paying you a "turn up" fee - doesn't show an awful lot of comittment. Maybe this forum should get their heads together and make some sample contracts - they really do give off a professional approach, and show quite clearly that you mean business.

[deepvisual]

just to answer a few questions.

the band in question aren't making money hand over fist at the moment so they couldn't afford to pay for a show to be created - but I like working with them as they let me do whatever I want, so I do it for a flat fee per show - ie very very cheap -

this TV thing has come up out of the blue after working for them for two years as they usually do small scale shows -

How I've decided to handle this is -- a/ ask the bands manager to see if the BBC are willing to pay and b/ offer to split the money with the band

that way, its not unreasonable to ask for payment and at the same time it takes into consideration the bands position , ie I wouldn't be there if it wasn't for them.

I'll let you know what happens...