Quoting for Work - Ethics

[charlielangridge]

As VJ Central / VJ Forums is expanding from what was hundreds of members to what is now thousands of members, quoting for work has become more contriversial than ever. As recently flagged up by an ex-member, although the community spirit is good it does bring an aspect into play. This is the following point:
Before Mr A joined VJC/VJF he would have quoted for job of Mr C
Now Mr A joined VJF/VJC he knows/knows of Mr C and has this dilema.

Within S & L we have a standard of ettiquette which covers close working relationships with other companies. I was however wondering what people's views were since as VJC/VJF grows, this problem will become more and more obvious.

[Primebase3]

friendly competition is cool: it 's part of the business aspect of doing your thing , you don't have to bite each others heads of because of a gig : if a promoter feels one is more suitable for a gig then another that doesn't mean he's your enemy for life. competition and community both start with com so...(stupid point but you catch my drift)

it will up the quality of shows to0(!) , the guy turned down will do his extra best to get the gig the next time by..presenting it better or making even doper visuals.


it's the game: but shake hands when you loose.



peace,

[wellREDman]

charlie good point, maybe you could give us a brief rundown of the etiquette used in SandL and we could discuss how it can work for the community?

[skitz]

i wouldn't mind playing for Mr C but i was never a big fan of the shamen. :)

[skitz]

not helpful. sorry. :)

[lichtspieler]

I think it is hard to draw a line.

Let me just state some examples.
Asuming all of the VJs in the examples are one the board.

1.) A beginner VJ that regularly asks for advice on the forum.
quotes for:
A gig that a professional member of the forum, that regularly posts advice, regularly does.

2.) A beginner VJ that regularly asks for advice on the forum.
quotes for:
A gig, that a member of the form regularly does, that can be considered an a..hole.

3.) A professional VJ that does not give advice a lot.
quotes for:
A gig that another member of the forum regularly does.

4.) A professional VJ thats on the board but does not give advice a lot.
quotes for:
A gig that is done regularly by another VJ, but in the opinion of the one who quotes, not very good.

5.) A beginner VJ.
quotes for:
A gig that is done regularly by another VJ, but in the opinion of the one who quotes, not very good.

It also raises the question when is somebody on the forum?
I think that is only the case if he regularly posts.

My opinin is:
1.) no
2.) yes
3.) no idea
4.) no idea, depends how bad
5.) same as 4.)

Maybe it should always be up to competition exept in 1.)

[KillingFrenzy]

It would seem to me that providing a quote for a job is always ethically "ok". We all do it, and relationships formed on the forums shouldn't effect standard practice.

I would think a conflict of interest would occur in two situations.

1) Inside information affects normal business practices. A perfect example would be that VJ-A posts that they're doing a gig for X$ and VJ-B solicits the Club owner for X-50$. Another example would be VJ-A posting that they're working at a club, but hate the music and "vibe" of the place. VJ-B tells the club owner this, and uses the leverage to get the job. These would seem like unethical uses of inside information.

2) Bad feelings on the forums lead to attacking someone's job.
VJ-A gets in a flamewar with VJ-B. VJ-A then goes out of the way to find out where VJ-B works and get them fired. Whether or not VJ-A gets the job is irrelevant, the point is that they were acting maliciously to force VJ-B out of work. Whether or not we like or dislike someone here, it shouldn't cause us to alter our normal business behaviour beyond seeking work for ourselves.

Ethical dilemna?
I'm not sure if I should solicit the Clubowner about tuesdays, because another VJ is usually there on wednesdays. Or various other situations where you aren't sure if you're going to step on someone's toes.
Solution: Contact the VJ in question, and ask them how they feel about it. You'll automatically be a step closer to being on their good side, since you've just shown them respect in asking. They'll probably give you exactly the situation with the club. In many cases, they'll even give you tips on what the club owner likes, or what the disadvantages of the venue are. Working with another VJ is also a way to gang up on the club owner and get them to install screens and house projection.

This has been the situation with most of the clubs/vjs I've dealt with.
Two exceptions: I was brought in once specifically to change up the visuals at a big "massive" style place. The regular VJ was pissed, but made a point of showing up to be an asshole. He had a collapsible screen set up behind the DJ, and asked that I spend $50 out of the $200 I was going to make (already giving my friend a deal) to rent it for the evening. I declined, and he left it there. I had the option of having to tear it down on my time (and probably have him throw a fit about that) or leave it up and use it. I ended up hanging a parachute in front of it, just to prove a point. He hung around with his buddies the whole time, glaring over occasionally. I tried being nice the whole time, and finally gave up.
I heard from a friend that a fairly big club "didn't have visuals." A touring DJ I really liked was coming in from out of town, and I mailed the promoter and asked if I could do visuals as a sample of my work, and record my set (with audio) in exchange. Not something I usually do, but I had some new gear and material, and wanted a nice recorded set with audio. I also hoped to get the gig for future events. The promoter agreed, and pretended to be "interested" in seeing a sample of my work. When I showed up, it turned out that he had a regular visuals crew that did slide projections and lasers. Immediately I felt uncomfortable, because I was now auditioning for their job. The promoter then used me to try and argue them on price and me as well. Lame situation. The good thing was that I communicated with the other crew, explained my situation, and we chatted and made a good night of it. The audience got twice as much visual entertainment as usual, and instead of trying to get the job, I actually told the promoter that I thought he was getting a steal for what he was paying the other guys. Didn't get the gig, but I kept in good standing with my peers. A little communication keeps you from being considered stand-offish, which is one of the bigger complaints I hear about VJs.

[charlielangridge]

Basically in s&L as far as we work, the etiquette is pretty much treat as you would want to be treated. You can bid against others when quoting and sometime promoters will try to get you to bid under the competitor, but you do have to take a stand when prices get stupidly low. You often have no idea on the oppositions price, so quote a figure that you are happy with (eg covery your costs, and you!). Rember although price is often the bottom line, speed of quote, preciseness and presentation will all come into it, along with a good demo.

You shouldnt quote for a gig that is usualy got by a company or vj you work closely with. Eg Company X always does Event A. Company Y ,who work with company X, have a good idea that they would do a better job in their oppinion / could undercut company x. Company Y do not however quote against company X as this breaks relations and it is not how company Y would like to be treated.

As for trying to steal another persons gig. Be very care full. I personaly would not recomend it. It will make you know friends (which are important in this industry) and can 9 times outa 10 look very unprofessional.

On the whole just treat other with respect and go for gigs you want but dont be too upset if you dont get them. Look at why you didnt, learn from it and go and get other jobs.

[InsideUsAll]

our outlook is simple. you reap what you sow.

from our experience if you tread on peoples toes they are more likely to tread on yours given half a chance. If you go outa your way to help people out, then chances are you may get a gig when someone else can't do it for whatever reason, which'll lead to another & another.

The only things that cost nothing in this game are manners & enthusiasm.

[brain]

from my experience: if a promoter asks you what you have to offer, tell him you do things "different" than others, not "better".

- "better" would mean you do basically the same
- "different" will make him more courious and interested
- gives you more freedom of style
- you don't judge others people work in comparison to yours
- you can even say the others are good (maybe they are!), but still have your point
- does not make you look arrogant, but informed

... but hey, don't forget: really DO it different :)

and i agree to the posts above: being nice and cooperative is fun AND pays - get to know the others VJs and teams in your area, sort the nice from the dumb, stay in touch, try to split gigs.

[bluntfaktory]

i think your quote is between your contractor and you . be realistic about your worth and your costs depending on the gear you use , the hours you work , and requests made , then keep it to your self . i've made the mistake of telling competition my quotes and been under cut which was my fault for being a bumb-ass . my price is my price , and that's nobodies else's bees wax but mine and who-evers paying me . i try to let my "work" make the difference , which i think speaks for it's self and should for anyone in the game ! :yep: