3D VJ (with or without glasses)

[holly]

Elbows mentioned wanting some info on using red/green glasses for VJing. Made me remember a few years back I was looking into the ChromaTek (http://www.chromatek.com/) company and their special brand of 3D glasses that were much less of a strain than red/green. Somewhere I still have a promokit from this company so I'll try to dig it out and post more info.

With red/green (I think it's called anachromatic) process the video screen looks like a blurry mess when you take the glasses off, and with the glasses you must keep your eyes perfectly level with the screen, any head-tilt and the picture blows (upside down it inverts). Not ideal for dance clubs. There was a later process for 3D film in the 80s that used polarized lenses to block the conflicting lightwave intended for the opposite eye. Not as bad as the red/green because you could actually use full color images, but the headtilt was even more sensitive because just a few degrees would kill the polarization block. The screen still looked like a blurry mess without the glasses, and the screen had to be of a special construction to reduce light scatter and preserve the polarized projection.

With ChromaTek, the glasses are polarized (etched?) in a certain way where different frequencies of light are bent slightly: reds bend slightly "out" adding difference to each eye (thus appearing closer), green/yellow stayed normal, blues bend slightly "in" subtracting difference from each eye (thus appearing farther away). White seemed to float in the color it was surrounded by, while black jumped back to the flatness of the screen. Since the process works only on the color spectrum it doesn't matter if the 3D "source" is paper, film projection, or standard television screen (in fact it was used in a few saturday morning cartoons). Even better, the image is still crisp and bold (but not 3D) when you take off the glasses. The sort of bold graphics that would look best in FLASH are perfect for this application. The glasses don't really effect the real world so you can wear them all night, but colored lights will still do the depth-jump, along with anything, (dancers, walls, floors) that is lit by colored light.

The company offered me a pricelist where you could buy thousands of the glasses custom printed with your logo.

Does this give anyone ideas?

[elbows]

Wow cheers for that, I looked at their website in detail and its fascinating me. The example animation page sure gives a good idea of how to achieve 3D by changing the colours of objects as they move around the virtual 3D space.

I cannot wait to order a set of glasses so I can see for myself. Maybe I should see if anyone else in the UK wants some and I could put together a larger order (not quite ready to order thousands yet but I would if content creation & quality proves feasable)

When reading the guide about what colours to use it sure sounds like there are a few weird effects which are normally not wanted due to confusing the 3D space, but that might work quite nicely for funking with peoples heads in clubs :D

Hmm if it works out then it would even be nice to add some plugins to some VJ software which help automate the deisgn process, obviously various colour effects could already be used but I bet theres some interesting stuff could be done with a plugin specifically geared to this technology :)

Also sounds like they have 2 slightly different technologies depending in whether you are sitting very near to a screen or viewing from a distance. So maybe one type for when designing stuff/looking at output on monitor and give the audience the other type. Have you got both types Holly?

Me wanders off wondering how it would look to have several layers of video on top of eachother, one in red & black and the other in yellow & black etc. The mind boggles!

[elbows]

Hey am I going insane or did this thread move to The Future? If so move it back, this isnt the future it is now :D (subject to shipping delay lol)

Or maybe not, I dunno, thinking about this stuff has overextended my brain capacity :p

[Bluelive]

Why didnt i think of that :)
Wont you just have threee layers ?
A near center and far layer ?

[elbows]

Well you could have a lot more layers than that potentially, with shades,tints of colour etc, but I think too many layers would overload the brain - only guessing though!

[holly]

So I went and studied the website a bit and there are two different glasses (HoloDepth and C3D) but they are the same technology. One is the stronger glasses "for kids", and the other is the same glasses with less of the effect which "adults seem to prefer". I guess you can take your pick as to which the clubbers would rather, subtle or strong.

I think any 3D artist could just set a shader/texture that reads the global "elevation" of the model (or it's distance from the camera?) and changes the color appropriately, blue when it's far away (sunk behind the screen) and red when it's close (popping out of the screen). I was also thinking if you had the different video layers like Elbows suggested you could just adjust the tint/hue of that channel or object to bring it forward or make it receed. In FLASH (or any other programmable VJ app maybe) you could tie the color spectrum to the scale of the object and they could smoothly change together.... It would be an awsome feature or plug-in for a VJ app.

I have no idea why this was moved to "the future". It IS available right now to anyone who wants to use it and there is not a high fee involved (especially if you have the glasses custom printed with a logo and sell them for $2 a piece ? maybe $3 for the stronger ones;) ). This isn't science fiction or something, and I figured it might be an "inspiration" to Elbows at least. whatever.

Elbows, I totally think you should get the mini "exploration" kit. It's like $7us. If for some reason they won't mail it overseas I'll get it and mail it to you. You can also get 10 glasses at a time for $10. Contact them and say you do event promotions and ask if they will send a price list for bulk orders and custom printing (though I think that was printing in the many thousands so it would be an investment). Something to think about: VJ 3-DEE? VJ DEPTH OF FIELD? VJ THIRD DIMENTIA...? You could make your money back with a gimmick like that.

[Rovastar]

Cannot read the article becuase too pissed but......


3d geissweks (www.geisswerks.com)

for stuff......

monkey and milkdrop stand out......

you theiving whores...:)

[holly]

Hmmm. I can't find the 3DGeiss on that page, but the Geiss plug-in description gave me an idea, maybe what Rova had in mind? (by the way, it seems someone stole his whore, has anyone seen it?)

The plug-in seperates music into highs (red), mediums (green), and lows (blue).... Maybe vice-versa. Base notes would sink backwards into the screen and trebles would jump out atcha! Cool!

It's not like red green and blue are rare colors in our line of work! There's probably dozens of plug-ins that could already be tweeked or just tripped out on as is!

[Rovastar]

:)

Oh Holly......


MilKDrop and Monkey have 3d modes that is what I was getting at.n f9 or something....


Allthough monkeys sonud rec stuff is shocking.....:( it is very nice for real time.

the imgaes are tweaked realtime too make r-b or any colour infatc images for use with 3d glasses..........rob the stuff you whores..........

[dinolava]

I made a dvd for my friends last year and one of the tracks was a piece I made for chromatek glasses. I wore the glasses while I made the piece and experimented with elements that looked the best and had good depth. I ordered glasses for my friends through the chromatek people (now American Paper Optics or something like that). Very nice people to do business with. They even sent me a Christmas card with a 3-D tree on it. Programs like artmatic pro work great because you can change the color scheme to R-G-B and get vivid results. The Chromadepth track was one of the favorites of the dvd and many folks wore the glasses while watching the other loops and found bits here and there that had 3-D qualities as well. It's the easiest 3-D you can make. Instant gratification for those with short attention spans. Who!? Me? Never! :p

[charlielangridge]

Elbows, i wanna order a pair, so why dont we wait and get in bulk, when others want some.

434314284214272559788777789114272547749186

[holly]

Duuuudes! I dug out an old pair and it looks GREAT! I sat for about 20 minutes tweeking some sound input to different colors and finally just stopped trying so hard and went and looked at everything I had on my computer! Very Cool! Everything does something! Definitely the easiest 3D! I was wrong about white/black. White is flat on the screen (between yellow which pops and green which sinks). Black is just black so it's just negative space.

I was using the "ChromaDepth" adult glasses and there was depth of about 2 inches in front and behind the screen (just using the monitor). More would be swell so I recommend the "C3D" kiddie glasses.

Guys, you GOTTA get these! Thanks for the info DinoLava!

[dinolava]

I forgot to mention that I noticed that the "kiddie" versions were not as clear as the "HD" versions. I wouldnt suggest wearing either when driving ;). However, the adult ones (they had an "HD" on them when I ordered them). are much clearer and you see better through them than the foggier kids version. I guess they figure kids dont care as much as adults do. It must cost more to make the "HD" because I cannot see any reason to make the "kiddie" version.

[stevefromNewcastle]

If a group order is being put in I will get acouple of pairs of glasses, all sounds very intresting.

[elbows]

Ok Im impatient to try them so I will wait till the start of next week and then put in an order, and I will also order quite a few spares for anbody in the UK that doesnt see this post in time.

For simplicities sake please if you want me to do a bulk order for people, everyone interested should email me their requirements :) steve@dvmachine.com

[many2]

If you want to experiment with the red-green type of glasses, you may want to know that there is a plugin effect for visualJockey R3 that is doing just that ! The "Anaglyph" plugin from the free NashArts plugin package, can be downloaded here : http://www.visualjockey.com/
There is a dynamic variable to control the Z-distance perceived by the people watching the image with the glasses, meaning you can change the depth of an image dynamically with your mouse, a MIDI slider or even with any of the sound analysis parameters. You can also render the result if you want to use it in another application (with the Make Movie option). Not as good as polarized glasses though, but I think red-green glasses have the advantage of being very cheap.

Other thing : I've designed a videogame for the arcade market (a snowmobile racing game called Frostbyte Racing) using a similar process called "shutter glasses". This technology render 2 different images, one for each eye and each with its own camera, and will "shutter" one eye at a time, 120 times per second. You have something like this :
Camera Left render for left eye - The glasses block the image from entering the right eye
Then Camera Right render for right eye - The glasses block the image for the left eye
The blocking (shutter) process is done with LCDs in the glasses themselves, making one glass "opaque" at a time. You may find such glasses bundled with some deluxe video cards. To work properly, you need to have 3d content as a source, you must display the image 120 times per second, and you must synch the glasses and the display. Let me say it was difficult to implement this for a public space (the arcades), so I don't think it would be a good technology for visuals : glasses, if wireless, can be cumbersome, and fragility is also an issue. That's not to talk about prices ! IMAX theatres use this technology for some films (and the traditional polarized glasses technology for some other). The Red-Blue and Red-Green glasses are the easiest to use and make content for though, I remember I did some with Deluxe Paint on my Amiga like 10 years ago !

[elbows]

Thanks many2 but I believe the anaglyph plugin is for red/green glasses, this is a different technology.

I tried lcd shutter glasses in the past, the effect was good but it made me feel ill after only a short time. I agree it isnt practical to think of using them far a large audience at the moment.

[many2]

I've edited my post to make it clear it's a different technology (red-green glasses VS polarized). Thanks for pointing it out Elbows !

Many-2

[ojovijo]

I've got a stereoscopic projector! Woo-hoo!

(I recognise that this thread is discussing a different technology, but...)

I picked the projector up second-hand last year. It's a fairly old one made by Vrex and is designed to project field-sequential (interlaced) 3d videos - the odd scanlines make the left picture and the even ones make the right picture. Viewers use polarised glasses. A silver screen is required as white ones depolarise the projection.

Unlike anaglyphic 3d and the Chromatek system, polarised 3d allows full colour video.

Unfortunately, the projector was damaged in transit and I haven't yet managed to get it going. I'm hoping to get it repaired soon.

Possible sources of 3d material I'm looking into include:-
- existing footage
(sadly many 3d videos seem to be either horror or porn)
- simultaneous recording with 2 camcorders
- recording with one camcorder and the NuView stereoscopic attachment (I don't have this yet)
- recording from 2 webcams
- rendering programs run twice with 2 different camera positions
- handwritten code (perhaps based on the Bomb source code)
- whitecap patches with automatic or manual tweaking, recorded and converted (there are tools for converting between different stereoscopic formats)

The last bit warrants explanation. If whitecap (a bit like geiss but programmable) finds a directory within its script file directory, it displays *all* the scripts in the former. Whitecap scripts let you specify camera position. So I wrote a program to take a normal script and make a script for the other eye with an adjusted camera position.

And it worked! Without the projector, I was only able to see in 3d by either putting my face right up to a smallish output screen on the monitor ('parallel viewing') or by hooking a very small portable TV to my scan converter.

(Some scripts didn't work well, and the morphing between scripts got very messy.)

If and when I manage to get the projector up and running, I'll report here. I hope and expect to totally freak out the punters. In the meantime, I'd love to hear if anyone else has done any 3d VJ-ing.

[asterix]

Ive actually been trying to source info on 3d projections. I can't find out if there are issues with using a projector screen.
BUT ... check this site out

http://www.alchemists.com/visual_alchemy/stereo.htm
http://www.rainbowsymphony.com

and I've recieved bulk order quotes for even cheaper glasses (25c American).

If you want to do a bulk order with me - let me know.

imagineer@ozemail.com.au

[elbows]

OK what happening? I want to order some glasses but I have received absolutely no emails asking me to get anyone else some.

So I wont order till Wednesday or Thursday now, please contact me before then if you want some, otherwise Im just going to go ahead and get some for me.

Cheers :)

[Ollie]

Elbows mate, i'm interested, not sure what size order your putting in, but i'm up for like 5 pairs for an initial trial, are you getting a big bulk order?

Let us know what the score is pls, like how r u going about this, how much, etc...

Cheers,

p.s think they'll look as cool as this --> :cool: ?

[elbows]

ok for me personally I was just gonna order a few - not making a huge bulk order till I know what the technology is like in real use.

So I'll wait and see how many people want some & how many before working out what the best way to do it is.

In terms of getting me the money after the order comes, can people use nochex? (www.nochex.com)

[Ollie]

cool with the Nochex thingy!

[elbows]

OK Ive been kinda busy, I'll sort this out later in the week, sorry for delay.

[krokodril]

http://artscilab.org/expandedcinema/part7.pdf

besides this (fairly old) writings, keep an eye out for new dlp tech...
dlp uses elctricity to turn coloured mirrors, same principle can make a simple see through 'glass'surface into a lens..... multilayering this gives in theory the possibility to focus per pixel...

[krokodril]

medical use:
http://www.sid.org/news/archive/industrynews0209.html

startrek?

:alien:

[Meierhans]

Anybody knows a cheap source for anaglyph glasses in EU / Germany??

[silk]

ok but you're audience need's to put those glasses on.

is it not possible of setting up you're projectors or screens in depth that you don't need the glasses anymore ?

every screen a different color

[VjDeranged]

I dont know if i mentioned this before... but anyway, in 2001 i had done a gig which was some djs from the MoS doing a tour of India, the party was at an aircraft hanger in the middle of bombay.
Well I convinced Bacardi to sponsor 1000 pairs of red/cyan glasses and I got them made via a local printshop (using lee filters even!)

..ok the moral of the story ..anaglyph and alcohol dont mix!
quite a few people complained of headaches with all the free alcohol in their system and anaglyph projections.

so make sure you have people on "e" and water if you gonna anaglyph them!
:D