Nato+55+NN+Courtcase+C74 [Archive]

vjvishnu

7th May 2006, 02:20 AM

This is actually a question about law and ethics.

Ok, so I followed the Netochka Nezvanova "spew of ASCII jibberish" for ages. I still haven't got deep into programming with visual modular environments but i'm pretty down with what their capable of (motion tracking, Midi maths, Audo analysis, intersoftware communication - all of that goodness).

I agree that she was totally exessive in her communications, but maybe another word is prolific. Remember Nato came before jitter.

I found alot of her posts un-readable and even boring, but the heart of what she is saying has a real resonance with me. Its quite exiting. Its something about re-adressing the balance between male and female dominance (esp. with technology), fighting for human rights and justice and mashing up loads of cool ideas around interactive audio/visual artwork, being and consciousness. And about flaming everyone in sight right from her first posts way back in the late 1990's - which I don't agree with on the whole but you have to admit that repeatedly accusing a respectable corporate CEO of being a cough medicine addict is pretty funny. :harhar: :roll:

Maybe its because i'm an artist based in europe (UK) but in a battle between a highly skilled and proficiant bunch of artists and a "profit before people" driven (jitter bundle a rip-off at $850 which is basically ?500) corporation I'd vote for the artists any day - even if they do ceaslessly jabber into online communites with computer poetry.

In fact i couldn't really understand why anyone in their right mind wouldn't vote for them if it came down to the cruch.

Besides if you read KiritanFlux in http://www.vjforums.com/showthread.php?t=15576&page=3

you'll read from a guy that sounds like a bit of an expert that NATO is "really cool to use and more fun than jitter," and can do a range of things that jitter can't do, despite being a bit out of date ATM.

proficiant artists vs rip off corporation = No contest IMHO.

Especially as the whole VJ movement is bound irreversably to gravitate towards custom visually programmed modular VJ apps it is important that we stick up for software developers that have a human touch/perspective/pricing policy (almost)/soul. (note: i'm not saying that all software companies need to appear to be funky artists but just not over-priced and inhuman with trigger happy lawyers)

One day we (all mac users) will all use software like Jitter to VJ with. Question is do you want to be at the mercy of a cantankerous but highly skilled and driven artist collective or another profit-crazed/rip-off corporation.

Maybe I'm being a bit un-fair to Cycling 74 and i'm definately not saying that NN would make the best main software developer for this community, but I think her ideas around fighting big evil buisnesses, striving for beautiful artwork and for making things fun are much more intune with the stuff I read around here than with some branch of OmniCorp.

BTW I heard from a reasonably reliable source that the real NN is actually a man but thats unconfirmed ATM. :) ;)

Also I wouldn't be surprised if mysoulseeksnato is actually somehow connected to NN in some way (if not actually her/him) - but thats just a guess. :)

Anyway all of this is just a way to ask a question: for those of you who don't know: Netochka Nezvanova went into court with cycling74 becaus she believed (very vocally) that cycling74 had stolen her code and shut her out of the market. The question is: does anyone know the outcome of the courtcase? Last time i heard she was loosing but we all know that an expensive lawyer comes way above truth and justice in most courts now. And besides you might be able to win a courtcase with loads of money but you can't win over a world of artists and entertainers with a fat lawyer. No way.

Thats my rant. I moved it over to law and ethics because I ddn't want to upset morph, and maybe we can chew this over fully here. Also I risk getting flame grilled for this but I don't think i'm alone in my opinions.

Who won the court case?

Who would you rather have rule your VJ software?

KillingFrenzy

7th May 2006, 10:07 AM

Well..
Nato provided... erm... Nato

Jitter provides a crossplatform development environment with excessive documentation and help files. Every object has a complex example explaining how to use it. Jitter has embraced new technologies such as GL, shaders, and freeframe. Cycling 74 maintains a strong support base, and forums/lists where users can ask questions and get immediate, understandable replies. Jitter is always kept "up to date" with current OS configurations.

Jitter is by far the most Supported, Documented and stable of the VJ softwares I've used. It is not some amateur alpha project struggling to a final version. It is a capable software used by professionals with the support and innovations of a complex team of developers.
Similarly supported software such as VJamm, Livid tools, or motion graphics software are very expensive.

proficiant artists vs rip off corporation = No contest IMHO.

I question whether Cycling 74' is a rip off corporation.
They're not owned by Sony or some conglomerate.

Choose your battles wisely. NN may have been entertaining, but So was Delorean, and he didn't know shit about making reliable/efficient cars.

Can you make a standalone program with Resolume, or Visualjockey?

DrEskaton

7th May 2006, 10:59 AM

None of the VJ softwares are made by giant corporations. Resolume and Vidvox are like three or four people, same with Garagecube.

They write VJ software because they think it's a cool technology, not for the money, the amount of money made by any VJ software (even Resolume) is tiny.

As I understand it, the problem with NN is that if you were an artist who she disagreed with you got no help, no upgrades or even got your license revoked.

not very conducive to artistic freedom is it?

vjvishnu

7th May 2006, 02:25 PM

Yeah and massive respect to the VJ software makers like camart and jilt van moorst, these guys are going down in history IMO.

And I'm definitely not saying that Jitter is a bad software - in fact I think its completely amazing - probably more powerful/flexible than any other VJ app. Also I know C74 is not exactly microsopht or McWrongalds. I'm sure they are very skilled, able, driven and give tremendous support to their clients. And NN seems to have quite a malishious streak + doesn't give comprhensive support etc.

The point i'm making is that in a battle between a big profit-driven company and a group of serious and proficient artists - i'll almost always support the artists. Especially if they have sense of humour and are fighting against things like our beloved oil thieves and the steady erosion of our human rights.

Its definately not a clear contest as to who is in the right and to be honest given the choice I wouldn't vote for either of them. But my basic understanding is that Nato came first and they stole her code and locked her out of the market. Is that right? I would love someone in the know to clear this up.

So does any one know what the state of play is with the Cycling/NN court case?

Maybe I should start a poll for NN vs C74?

7th May 2006, 08:00 PM

http://www.frappr.com/netochkaspassport/photo/445250

:) :) :) :)

i did met a woman at some STEIM workshops back 2002 in amsterdam from who everyone thinks is NN
so i say female

haven't seen any updates for nato+55 a long time
it's still in OS9 world...

if she still want the court thing let her first make an osx update
suppose she wins and jitter is taken out of market . We won't have any good vj soft.

I vote for NN to be an old legend. We tell our kids before bedtime:terror:

robotfunk

7th May 2006, 08:14 PM

if you don't close your code lines with a ; nn will eat you when you are sleeping

mysoulseeksnato

7th May 2006, 09:20 PM

Hello VJs,

i did met a woman at some STEIM workshops back 2002 in amsterdam from who everyone thinks is NN
so i say female

Yes, "Netochka" is a female name.

The point i'm making is that in a battle between a big profit-driven company and a group of serious and proficient artists - i'll almost always support the artists. Especially if they have sense of humour and are fighting against things like our beloved oil thieves and the steady erosion of our human rights.

Yes, we at the North Atlantic Treaty Organization also believe very strongly in supporting serious and proficient artists. We also have an excellent track record in human rights, and I think that is probably what compelled Netochka Nezvanova to help me in this situation.

As I understand it, the problem with NN is that if you were an artist who she disagreed with you got no help, no upgrades or even got your license revoked.

Actually, she was very nice! But I guess this is because I represent such a powerful and beneficent organization.

But it all worked out! I just got the video of my presentation back from NATO's high-security audio/video performance screening and censorship process, and man it looks GREAT! I posted it on www.youtube.com:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sJskhiOdI8o

Check out the great crowd and my awesome nato.0+55 patch!

Thanks for all your help, VJs!

7th May 2006, 09:27 PM

whaaa lunatic attack

where are my +55 archives....

7th May 2006, 09:31 PM

ah!

>
>>an end to the pain
>
>
>elaborate plz

mmm?

m?

mmmmmmmmmmm!!!!+ou??

>http://www.m9ndfukc.org/data/picz/ferrari/00.jpg

nnnnnnnn+ou?

p-out + p-out

>pain

a kodak moment "for peace and understanding"

u!zper... zpumon! 242.-.-

_____

and

Hi

distinctive. masculine + exotic

>i am independent socially conscious student

i am a hint of intimacy

>attempting

a sekret touch

>to get an installation together with little
>or no tech or financial support. My plan was to try
>and get some NASDAQ data into MSP

msp - ultra licensed ultra socially UNCONSCIOUS = social RAPE

>for creation of
>Sonic weapon my inquiries led me to you.

gi?t set

>I was
>disapointed

http://www.m9ndfukc.org/cycling74

>to find yet another cost

life is gentle sweetness

>involved I am now

$200k lawsuits

>more

than a ferrari

<less

than 01nz karess @ 15m!n \ mm

>than broke and running out of time with only 2
>weeks to get all this shit together.

understated style [c] david zicarelli + family inc.

>Any chance of
>extreme discount for 242.nasdaq. Please help.

i would have mais ...

cycling74 + extra occident social rape.tiles
have insisted on ...

>love

... FORCED SEX

>PJ x

nn - handling charges applicable outside ost europa

\\ cycling74's attorney - nn asked for IT
you -

nn - reading this makes me all warm and giddy.
wintered kiss

7th May 2006, 09:33 PM

phew that was close

mysoulseeksnato

8th May 2006, 02:43 AM

i was going to ignore this but you're linking it everywhere.

a tip, if you're going to go for a big build up you better have something to deliver.

two guys dancing in stormtrooper masks and shaky shots of the nato interface does not deliver.

lame ass effort soul seeks nato...
WHOA, TIMEOUT DrEskaton, DONT HATE THE PLAYER! Seriously. OK?

BTW Man, I don't know about those Residents but you should really listen to some Metallica, because those guys are awesome. They really know how to rock-n-rave!

DrEskaton

8th May 2006, 09:39 AM

DONT HATE THE PLAYER!

http://allmusic.galeon.com/caratulas/a/Aphex_Twin_-_Windowlicker_-_front.jpg

I'm not playah hating.... this is playah hatin...

http://www.ifilm.com/ifilmdetail/2432540?htv=12

mysoulseeksnato

8th May 2006, 05:44 PM

I'm not playah hating.... this is playah hatin...

http://www.ifilm.com/ifilmdetail/2432540?htv=12
WHOA DrEskaton THIS VIDEO IS CRAZY! I love it. How did you make all those hot girls have that ugly dude's head? And WTF is up with that limo!? Did you rent that stretch or is that shit custom? HOT!

sleepytom

8th May 2006, 05:57 PM

he didn't - that ugly dude is richard james aka the aphex twin. the video was made by chris cunningham.

what does NN eat for breakfast?

http://www.picpop.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10585/916.jpg

DrEskaton

8th May 2006, 05:58 PM

unfortunately chris cunningham made that video not me.... and I suspect he had the resources of a major london post house at this disposal....

however the term windowlicker and the general message the video is trying to convey is relevant to some people on this board.

vjvishnu

8th May 2006, 11:23 PM

Ok, so I ve been thinking about this alot.

First i wan't to apologise to C74 for my comments against them, simply because, thinking about it, my critisism is based almost entirely upon NN's posts and i haven't really heard from an indepentant authority on the matter yet. So I swallow my pride and take it all back for now. I need more sources before I can really decide.

I'm certainly not adverse to profit making as a princible, especially as I'm launching a buisness myself in the next few weeks. And I really wouldn't like jitter to be taken off the shelves. Nor nato. But if what she says is true at all then we have a problem.

MJ said:
haven't seen any updates for nato+55 a long time
it's still in OS9 world...
if she still want the court thing let her first make an osx update

Agreed. I don't envy the extra coding work that would involve but maybe she could get support from some where.

Talking of support:

I do actually own (shock horror) a student copy of max/msp/Jitter (?32) which failed a few months ago because the ilok mis read my computers clock and it assumed my copy had run out even tho i had only had it for a few days. Now I don't have a real problem with this - shit happens with technology right? What will be interesting will be the level of support they choose to give me over this. I will keep you posted - i paid for 9 months use - so I should get 9 months use - right?

On other levels:

MYSOUL i have to agree with DR.E on this one - I reject his harsh way of putting it - but he does have a point in that you really built this thing up, and while your posts are really funny (in general) and no one is questioning the amazing energy and spirit of you and your audience - at all - but there really isn't a whole lot of worth to your video IMO. I'm not saying that you don't have a lot of potential but what are you actually doing? I can see some clips being triggered and I heard some music but... so what? Benton Bainbridge and the NY crew were doing this in 1999.

Is that David Zicarelli in the clips? at least that would give the video some meaning and context but still, i'm sorry to say it, I can do better than that with an old television and a magnet. I want my critism to be mostly constructive because I want you to go on to bigger and better, (you obviosly can) and also i'm hoping to link up my showreel to the site later tonight and I would hope that any critism i get is also mostly constructive, but maybe you could make your patch more articulate for the next demo. I would reccommend getting a feed straight out of your laptop and into a recorder instead of/as well as all this free camera work. A video mixer would let you do both. If you don't have a video out you can read up plenty on scan convertors on these forums. Good luck.

So there is a bit of a debate on the subject of NN+nato going on here, but I still haven't heard anything on the results of the courtcase from anyone or even more importantly the truth on wether they stole her code etc.

I could trail the various mailing list archives for answers but who do you believe?

Maybe there is a much bigger jitter community than nato and therefore we will hear much more from the jitter corner but either way i think we need answers.

Oh and MJ I read the quotes from NN above but... with due respect, I'm not sure what your trying to say. I actually find the commentry really funny :lol2::harhar: and if your trying to say that she is greedy because she charges Americans extra then - well actually if you look at what america charges the rest of the world (sanctions on cuba etc etc etc) then I think its actually a political statement as much as a money earner. Just a theory...

So whats happening with the NNova vs CYC74 jury?

vjvishnu

9th May 2006, 12:36 AM

Quick note: just read the blurb on MYSOUL's video page and it is two JItter programmers in the video. Josh Kit Clayton and Joshua Goldberg. So i suppose the film does have some meaning and context. Still I don't know what your patch is doing apart from triggering some video and I can't tell if your taking the piss or endorsing them (i can hazard a guess). Maybe because the audio is not clear. Please explain.

DrEskaton

9th May 2006, 12:49 AM

i wouldn't have been harsh on him if he hadn't built it all up with theatrics for so long.

I was actually enjoying most of my soul seeks natos posts and the over reactions on here... so when he finally linkes a video of his amazing presentation I was hoping to see something cool, like maybe the sort of effects that nato can do....

instead we get two storm troopers, and the mac os 9 booting screen. if it's really the jitter programmers dancing around making fun of nato then the whole thing is even more lame....

how about posting some clips using nato actually demonstrating it now that your soul has sucessfully seeked it....

vjvishnu

9th May 2006, 01:28 AM

DR.Eskaton said:
it seems from what I have read that "NN" (he/she or it) was trying to get better licensing terms for max with the lawsuit and lost so they just gave up (after chucking a hissy fit and destroying several communities)....

I didn't read this properly. My bad.

So she lost the case huh? I still have a few questions tho:

1) WHy does she need better lincencing for max? Surely people can just buy it from c74 and then just buy Nato from her and use them together - or have i got that wrong - is that the point that you some how can't use nato with max any more?:confused:

2) She repeatedly accuses them of stealing her code amongst other bad things. Is this true in any way? How would we ever know? WHo do we believe?

3) What is she doing now? After nearly spearheading the AV revolution and posting more computer poetry than went into the software itself, surely you can't just hang up your boots.

I definately don't want to suffer a million angry ASCII posts, but it is nice to see a girl blazing a trail in a world of mostly "boy art" as my friend calls VJing. Also, i've got a soft spot for art and activism (which i think she does).

KiritanFlux said:
i really hope that Cycling and NN will quit their legal struggles and work together because i really would appreciate some revamped nato objects for modern macs

Me too. Maybe thats impossible. I think they hate each other pretty badly by now. Still its never too late to kiss and make up...
:kiss: :love3: :love2: :grouphug:

sleepytom

9th May 2006, 07:13 AM

:zzz: as predicted its another boring waste of time - much like almost every piece of "work" associated with nato that i've seen.

2) She repeatedly accuses them of stealing her code amongst other bad things. Is this true in any way? How would we ever know? WHo do we believe? i tend to believe the people that express their opinions is clear reasonable english rather than the people who hide behind bullshit layers of n0n53nc3 - i imagine the judge in the case did the same and c74 one by default because their lawyer didn't have to spend three days trying u^d3rz4^d what his client was z4y1^5 each time he received a letter, and was thus able to actually argue whatever case their was properly.

3) What is she doing now?wh0 c4r3z! After nearly spearheading the AV revolution and posting more computer poetry than went into the software itself, surely you can't just hang up your boots. the thing is that she was never anything more than an armature art project - by releasing nato with no proper documentation and being really rude and actively unhelpful she alienated 95% of nato's (potential) users - its a classic study of how having a technically superior system doesn't help you if your unable to get on with the rest of the world. Jitter by contrast is developed by people who are just as artistic, yet understand the need for clear documentation and are able to interact with the world without the layers of bullshit and paranoia.

my main question for NN was / is why did you not switch to PD as the host environment? if you hate C74 because they are proprietary and too expensive then use an opesource system. if PD isn't good enough for nato then help develop it - that's the point of opensource. (but again you have to cooperate to be involved in opensource projects which seemingly is the one thing NN is incapable of)

KiritanFlux

9th May 2006, 09:00 AM

DrEskaton

9th May 2006, 02:43 PM

1) WHy does she need better lincencing for max? Surely people can just buy it from c74 and then just buy Nato from her and use them together - or have i got that wrong - is that the point that you some how can't use nato with max any more?:confused:

I think the issue was that you needed max to run nato, nn wanted to be able to sell a Max+Nato bundle where she (NN) got more of the money as she thought Nato was more valuable than max. C74 disagreed and so it went.

krezrock

27th September 2006, 09:36 PM

nn isn't really nn ! suspect

Meierhans

27th September 2006, 10:52 PM

Faces seem to be made with good ol? fashioned physical mask.
Indeed one of the clips I can watch over and over again. Alot meaning inside, touching the most important things of our time.
Maybe just for mens point of view, but Aphex did see coming what anoys me now on MTV all day. He is just cooler than cool, showing up all this nonsense off "coolness" as stupididy.

Damn, I love this bunny, I can not resist.
:bunny:

0f0003

3rd October 2010, 10:35 PM

Well..

Providing excuses for reverse engineering, copyright infringement
and outright degenerate comportment is a certain recipe for ensuring a monopolized mafia environment,
that in the words of David Zicarelli, CEO of Cycling74 allows
Cycling74 to "BAM BAM BAM the entire customer database."

This is precisely why Cycling74 is a Walmart type operation that licenses every product that they sell with the exception of Jitter which is a derivative of Nato.0+55.

The reason they reverse engineered NATO.0+55 is because
David Zicarelli's typical attempts to secure the 'consulting'
services of 0f0003 were promptly dismissed. (see the "BAM BAM BAM" offer above)

This is not debatable. It is documented and acknowledged by Cycling74 and their attorney.

Familiarize yourself with Zicarelli's modus operandi and you'll understand why Cycling74 licenses, steals and sells others' products.

This is not to say that the issues aren't greater, for they are,
eg. modern western degeneracy vs. traditional cultures, kitsch vs. meaningfulness.

Hence it made no sense to continue to operate in that decrepit, corrupt environment.

As for Nato.0+55, it provided Everything else.

As evidenced that nothing quintessential has changed in Max since we stopped. So, after all this time you're still connecting patch chords. Wonderful.

Unfortunately for the artistic community Cycling74 will always suffocate and marginalize any significant creativity so they can implement their kitschy,
meaningless rubbish and retain control.

Nato.0+55 was the most obvious example, but certainly not the only
platform sabotaged.

Keep consulting and connecting patch cords.

>new technologies such as GL, shaders

'V. Modern' ... like patch cords

Sad

>Nato provided... erm... Nato
>Jitter provides a crossplatform development environment with excessive >documentation and help files. Every object has a complex example >explaining how to use it. Jitter has embraced new technologies such as >GL, shaders, and freeframe.
Cycling 74 maintains a strong support base, >and forums/lists where users can ask questions and get immediate, understandable replies. Jitter is always kept "up to date" with current OS configurations.

Jitter is by far the most Supported, Documented and stable of the VJ softwares I've used. It is not some amateur alpha project struggling to a final version. It is a capable software used by professionals with the support and innovations of a complex team of developers.
Similarly supported software such as VJamm, Livid tools, or motion graphics software are very expensive.

proficiant artists vs rip off corporation = No contest IMHO.

I question whether Cycling 74' is a rip off corporation.
They're not owned by Sony or some conglomerate.

Choose your battles wisely. NN may have been entertaining, but So was Delorean, and he didn't know shit about making reliable/efficient cars.

Can you make a standalone program with Resolume, or Visualjockey?[/QUOTE]

0f0003

3rd October 2010, 10:50 PM

I think the issue was that you needed max to run nato, nn wanted to be able to sell a Max+Nato bundle where she (NN) got more of the money as she thought Nato was more valuable than max. C74 disagreed and so it went.

Many people didn't want to buy Max from Cycling74,
instead preferring to purchase both from us. Understand
that half of Nato.0+55 customers hadn't worked with Max before.

This was the first massive demographics shift in Max's history.

Zicarelli agreed to a bundle price and we received copies
of the contract, after which a Gregory Taylor, a Cycling74 secretary
whose petition to write Nato.0+55 manuals was rejected,
managed to brainwash Zicarelli into not signing.

Note again how our refusal to entertain any outsourcing was dealt with.

This wasn't a complicated and complex matter for Cycling74, but purely a financial decision. They couldn't license it and couldn't be part of it so they reverse engineered it.

0f0003

3rd October 2010, 11:41 PM

i don't really understand the steps NN aka. 0f0003 Maschinenkunst took after Jitter came out. I totally understand that a developer of such an innovative, transmediale award winning software gets really pissed when a big corp rips off the idea and makes something faster, better supported out of it.

in my opinion it's not really a stolen idea but just the logical evolution of the max environment...

Some of you are complaining about a 15 sec video
being used by someone without permission.

Let's be serious.

The evolution of the modern Max environment is as follows:

Zicarelli loses his job at Opcode.

Zicarelli licenses Max.

Zicarelli writes MSP, a derivative of PD.

Zicarelli tries to license Nato.0+55 and is rejected

Zicarelli tries to hire 0f0003 as 'consultants' and is rejected

Zicarelli hires several degenerate employees
paying them a third of the usual rate.

Zicarelli begins sabotaging Nato.0+55 in earnest,
blocking access to the list and refusing access to the SDK

Zicarelli and Co reverse engineer Nato.0+55,
steal all of the utilitarian aspects (typical)
and release a derivative

Zicarelli continues to license others' products
in accordance with his 'BAM BAM BAM the community' theory

NN should have learned from the Operating System War. There was Windows, UNIX and Apple. Then there came Linux which has become the fastest growing OS of all times, thanks to the Open Source philosophy. While Apple was stuck in total stagnation by the end of the nineties, they took the right step and jumped onto the OpenUnix train which lead to OSX, a totally modern Operating System that has become much more popular than Windows. Microsoft is still stuck and behind, because they are a closed system and slaves of their own corporate politics...

Cycling 74 has won the battle against NN in a closed system war with protected source codes, both struggling for profit. Although she propagates anticapitalistic viewpoints and criticizes western rofit society, NN's software is way too expensive and too protected.

The principle issue is that you are judging 'NN' from your experience
and some do not live in the western society you inhabit, with its
communist/capitalist and open source/closed binaries.

We have criticized exploitation. If we struggled for profit per se we would reverse engineer Cycling74, but we prefer truth to democratic rubbish.

We haven't employees, consultants and other prostitute-derivatives.
We share gifts to those we know and like.
As we have and do.

Open source is to closed source what communism is to capitalism.
They are twins.

What is the connection you establish with the author +?
A purely material one.

As far as 0f0003 software being expensive -
ordinarily it wouldn't even be priced nor available (eg. the current software).

When the path does not exist its price is light.

If this too extravagant proves, the path to the prostitutes
is well lit and affordable.

nato.0+55+3d has a very big potential because it is easier to use than jitter and has a few more advantages...instead of sitting at home and ranting about c74's politics on the 55 mailing list, 0f0003 Maschinenkunst should make their code open source, at least partially! she should provide an OSX version of the nato runtime library, keep that closed and get money for it while providing the object sources to the public!

I beleive there are still a lot of nato fans out there who would love to take this cult piece of software to the future!

It will happen (and in osx format) - when we see this community Rise
and be Moral, instead of passively accepting barbaric and degenerate comportment as inevitable democratic progress.

More on this to follow as it coincides with present entanglements.

just look at PureData/GEM - it is a pain in the ass to use, compared to Max/Jitter, but the scene is growing stronger and new objects pop up every month. nato has much more potential and is more stable and better to use than GEM, so please, Ntochka, give us the sources and we will praise you eternally and keep the spirit alive!

0f0003

4th October 2010, 12:19 AM

:zzz: as predicted its another boring waste of time - much like almost every piece of "work" associated with nato that i've seen.

i tend to believe the people that express their opinions is clear reasonable english rather than the people who hide behind bullshit layers of n0n53nc3 - i imagine the judge in the case did the same and c74 one by default because their lawyer didn't have to spend three days trying u^d3rz4^d what his client was z4y1^5 each time he received a letter, and was thus able to actually argue whatever case their was properly.

Sleepy, first of all, one -> won, their -> there.

Secondly, let me explain something to you.

Cycling74's attorney has said:

1. My client reverse engineered your software because he was in love
(with nn) and under the influence (of Benadryl) [we kid you not]

2. My client reverse engineered your software because he didn't know that
it was illegal.

Keep in mind that Cycling74 already admitted reverse engineering Nato.0+55.

We were advised that if we pressed charges against Cycling74,
Joshua Kit Clayton could be arrested under the Millennium act.

Based on this and what we observed in the community
we decided not to pursue the matter.

>wh0 c4r3z! the thing is that she was never anything more than an >armature art project - by releasing nato with no proper documentation

The documentation was itself simply.superior
and integrated.

And the example apps are still the most beautiful max apps,
as viewable at the NN museum, which is the basis for some
of these responses.

>and being really rude and actively unhelpful she alienated 95% of nato's (potential) users

Easy on the c74 gullibloons.

Best customer relations is an understatement.
And we aren't posers - if we don't like something we say so.

However, we think drink holders have no place in cars
nor our software.

[quote]
- its a classic study of how having a technically superior system doesn't help you if your unable to get on with the rest of the world. Jitter by contrast is developed by people who are just as artistic,

-.-

-.-

Art is transcendental.
Jitter resembles a public toilet.

yet understand the need for clear documentation and are able to interact with the world without the layers of bullshit and paranoia.
my main question for NN was / is why did you not switch to PD as the host environment? if you hate C74 because they are proprietary and too expensive then use an opesource system. if PD isn't good enough for nato then help develop it - that's the point of opensource. (but again you have to cooperate to be involved in opensource projects which seemingly is the one thing NN is incapable of)

The old Opcode Max had a minimalist industrial vibe to it.
That is now gone of course, replaced by cheesy C74 kitsch.

Pd ... more patch cords.

We don't like windows nor patch cords.

sleepytom

4th October 2010, 09:18 AM

go away now please.

cat

4th October 2010, 09:32 AM

Or tell us what your doing now, dwelling on the past only makes you bitter...

Scratchpole

4th October 2010, 10:23 AM

As always I enjoyed reading that.
Amazing how quick a decade flys by.
Nato.0+55. was one of the first digital art/code projects that really entertained me.

0f0003

4th October 2010, 11:18 AM

Or tell us what your doing now, dwelling on the past only makes you bitter...

Why 'US' - You don't need assistance.

We produce Balkan.OS, because democracy and patch cords are shortcuts to 'sleepy' comportment.
This, however, is largely irrelevant to the current discussion and objective.

@Sleepy - barbaric and degenerate comportment is inevitable to democratic progress.

KillingFrenzy

4th October 2010, 11:52 AM

0f0003

4th October 2010, 12:30 PM

Did a restraining order get lifted or something? Or did something new actually come out of c74 or Martina Navritalova to get this started?

Yeah, didn't think so.

Drop us a line when there's something to see.

See @sleepy remark - we already know Ubiquitous Prostitution
is a requirement for democratic citizens.

0f0003

4th October 2010, 01:59 PM

As always I enjoyed reading that.
Amazing how quick a decade flys by.
Nato.0+55. was one of the first digital art/code projects that really entertained me.

recipes 4 time travel

http://www.0f0003.com/data/pikz/isea09/nn%20isea09.txt

-

sleepytom

4th October 2010, 02:16 PM

0f0003

4th October 2010, 02:31 PM

cat

4th October 2010, 02:39 PM

'I' don't need assistance, 'us' is because this is a public site that more than 'I' read, 'you' are obviously a talented crazy person, and so 'I' would like to know what you do now (there is of course only now, the past is gone and can not be changed, so don't bother trying) if 'you' are doing something that might interest me or the other people here then go ahead and show us, if you don;t I expect sleepy will kickban 'you'
Generally things that move excite interest around here, strangely a number of visualist are dyslexic and so words have less weight, I always look at a peice of work before i read the plaque

0f0003

4th October 2010, 02:59 PM

R4lly b0r1ng n0w..

idiotic and nonsensical poetry is inevitably resulting in kickban.

------
this site is not for text based artwork. its a discussion site for VJs. Discussion is not art, we don't care for your meaningless text and failure to engage in proper conversations. If you want to take part in our community then you do so on our terms. We saw what you did to the LEV list (10 years or more ago). We will not let you degenerate our site in the same way.

One more thing - Careful who you're threatening nematode.

That was an ISEA presentation.
It is unconscious, 1 dimensional, degenerate, cowardly worms
such as you who constantly render communities meaningless.

As far as participating in YOUR particular community,
we could care less about connecting to YOU specifically - go find something else to wet your fascist panties about simple minded freak.

If YOU want to ban the account - find the bottle and
be honest instead of a lousy, lying nematode sissy about the motives.

>then you do so on our terms

Da-te-n pula mea de jarla idioata.

-

sleepytom

4th October 2010, 03:08 PM

Goodbye.....

Scratchpole

4th October 2010, 03:31 PM

0f0003 Thankyou for making this place more entertaining for the last few hours.
Great to know that you are still being creative/destructive.
Thanks for the link, an enjoyable read. Not so sure about some of the god stuff but each to thier own.

Tom: get a grip dude.
Really, what was worthy of a ban before you started being antagonistic?
What was linked to may be just as relevent to peoples practice as previous Theory/Art/Philosophical articles. I for one can see a development since earlier work/ideas.

Should we all now just start communicating entirley in images?

sleepytom

4th October 2010, 04:05 PM

The whole thread was off topic from start to finish.

Nato repeatedly answering questions with insults, failing to offer a serious response and posting things which are libellous accusations against a software company.

I've seen it all before and watched it destroy message boards which had been interesting discussion places before the nato invasion. Yes it may all be valid in some context, however that context is not VJForums. I'm sure you can find coverage of this crap elsewhere if its what you want to take part in. Try the Balkan.OS mailing lists - i'm sure they are full of it.

Look at their ISEA presentation... YouTube - Gheorghe Dan presenting Balkan.OS live at ISEA 2008 whilst you might think that it offers a fantastic art angle on community learning, the people who spent time and money organising the event where probably annoyed by this. Same goes here, destructive "art" attacks on our community might be funny, but they are costly too.

NN is well known in the digital art world for destructive behaviour which has seriously damaged communities in the past. Were these posts from someone else on a different topic then i would be more laid back about it. But given her previous i'm nipping it in the bud this time.

Scratchpole

4th October 2010, 04:30 PM

In your opinion it's crap...
( I expect you) remember your attitude has the potential to damage this community as well. Answering questions with insults..ooh never seen that before.

Did you make the descision to ban independently?

PCProject

4th October 2010, 04:55 PM

Couple of links for you Joe

http://createdigitalmotion.com/2008/05/interface-as-performance-medium-glitchy-insane-kdag_nato055/

a narcissistic, rampant female AI / forum-trolling-as-performance-art spambot / Che Guevara inspired/reclusive futurist programming group/classic Ferrari-driving Dostoevsky character Netochka Nezvanova, aka NN, integer, antiorp (the list goes on).

http://dir.salon.com/story/tech/feature/2002/03/01/netochka/

deepvisual

4th October 2010, 05:06 PM

banned - and just when it got interesting...
you can't beat a good old fashioned nutter - especially one that codes.

sleepytom

4th October 2010, 05:51 PM

exactly, you can't beat NN and more to the point some people will join her. If we wish to have a community which doesn't get taken over by her and her trolling activities then we can only exclude her from discussions.

There are other places on the web where you can go and interact with NN. We don't need it here.

deepvisual

4th October 2010, 07:02 PM

I, for one, welcome our new verbally incontinent Øverlords

sleepytom

4th October 2010, 07:44 PM

OK you win.

vanakaru

5th October 2010, 08:15 AM

I liked this tread before and I welcomed this new wakeup. This is very interesting reading and under *Law and Ethics* quit relevant. For me it expands the dry and narrow court speech reglement that potures to be *correct* and *civil* into free and unexpected. In the same time being as meanignless and full of empty but beatiful words as lawers closing speech.

Rovastar

5th October 2010, 10:41 AM

I never understood any of this thread 4 years ago (some 10+ year piece of software only available on a minority OS it hardly set the world alight...ppt....) and I sure don't understand any of it now. It is 2010 people.

deepvisual

5th October 2010, 01:18 PM

R
It is indeed 2010 in linear time.

actually its Juche Year 99, tovarich

evomedia

5th October 2010, 02:11 PM

sleepytøm? sleepytom?

Will the real sleepytom please stand up?

PCProject

5th October 2010, 03:46 PM

Is there an ignore function on this forum?
Please say yes. Please.

deepvisual

5th October 2010, 05:26 PM

locomote your finger tips to User CP - Edit Ignore List

Ignore

what a brilliant concept

deepvisual

7th October 2010, 10:00 AM

Are you going to lift the unjustified ban on our account

err..
http://beta.vjcentral.com/acceptable-usage-policy

* Multiple registration. Members are not allowed to register under more than one account and/or pretend to be someone else.

seems you've automatically banned yourself.

Rovastar

7th October 2010, 03:24 PM

Welcome to our world.

saccade

26th January 2012, 08:49 PM

wowsers. oh hello nn, thought you were dead.

this is joshua goldberg. i remain short and fat and not bald.

i loved nato, and evangelized it widely in 2000 and 2001. it was your decision to start attacking me on every live media arts forum on earth that pushed me away.

cycling did not reverse engineer nato.
david z is not a benadryl addict.
gregory taylor is not a secretary.

your art, which was the presentation of obtuse but powerful software accompanied by a unique many-headed hostility that added to the hipster cachet of its existence, was exciting and beautiful eleven years ago. you fascinated and scared me. when you decided that i was only worth mocking and destroying you lost a fan and multiple possible license sales. in retrospect, it's not surprising. you wanted out of the business.

it's really easy to keep blaming cycling for your inherent weaknesses.

it's only surprising that i haven't seen it in so long.

your friend

the nematode poptart

0f0003 _||-

29th September 2012, 08:44 PM

>wowsers. oh hello nn, thought you were dead.

Hello Josh.

>this is joshua goldberg. i remain short and fat and not bald.

Confused you with Jeremy Bernstein.

>i loved nato, and evangelized it widely in 2000 and 2001. it was your decision to start attacking me on every live media arts forum on earth that pushed me away.

Completely understandable - I don't blame you.
Nor do I blame myself, as I'm sure that you violated the licensing terms.

But, it doesn't matter.

I wish we could have approached it more democratically, so that you could for instance discuss things with an employee - who's just doing a job,
so he doesn't get upset, angry, etc., but, I'm ever so slightly allergic to employees.

>cycling did not reverse engineer nato.

Mr. Clayton’s attorney, Mr. Palermo, is in possession of documents
where Clayton admits it in writing.
We have written documents where his attorney excuses him because
he didn't know the law.

We have a written document where Zicarelli discusses the
reverse engineering.
Bernstein leaked some internal C74 documents.

In any case, Samsung also doesn't infringe Apple's IP,
and you can believe what you like.

From legal documents:

Mr.Clayton’s public admission reads: ”I reverse engineered parts of nato [...]
I hope that my actions do not have a negative impact on the many other current and future nato users/developers,
but I would not make such a public apology if I knew that they would not have such an impact.”

Furthermore, Mr. Clayton has written privately that he reversed engineered Nato.0+55, and as explanation offered
that ”Art is thievery” and that he is not thinking correctly because his ”circuits are fried” and he ”is eating benadryl to help calm down”.

Mr. Clayton’s attorney, Mr. Palermo, wrote that ”as a non-lawyer, Mr. Clayton cannot be expected to know”
that reverse engineering Nato.0+55 is illegal.

>david z is not a benadryl addict.

No, he is an employee leveraging user.
And one of his employees is \ was a benadryl abuser.

>gregory taylor is not a secretary.

That's why he came asking for the job of doing the Nato.0+55 documentation,
and after I declined, both he and bernstein began to forcefully introduce their filth in my affairs.

>your art, which was the presentation of obtuse

Balkan point of view - insufficiently 'obtuse'.

>but powerful software accompanied by a unique many-headed hostility that added to the hipster cachet of its existence, was exciting and beautiful eleven years ago.

Hip - no. Beautiful - yes. Aggressive - as required.

Many - as many as you like to imagine, but it was an indication of humility.

>you fascinated and scared me.

I understand. That's why I married her.

>when you decided that i was only worth mocking and destroying you lost a fan and multiple possible license sales.

Look, sometimes one must sacrifice the short term for the long term.
Much as sometimes, one must sacrifice a personal rapport, for truth.

Thus, while you may be a nice and likable person, as I'm sure you can be,
you were on the other side.

Yet, as observed, I have taken the time to respond.

>in retrospect, it's not surprising. you wanted out of the business.

A community of unconscious poptarts (imo, which is what mattered), is not sustainable.

Nevertheless, that's an astute observation. You've become wiser.

>it's really easy to keep blaming cycling for your inherent weaknesses.

There comes a time when one must choose one's battles.
And then, paradoxically, losing can become winning.

It's not a weakness, but a death, a prerequisite to ... life ever after.

>it's only surprising that i haven't seen it in so long.

You are circling around the truth, but you're missing the entry.

A community of unconscious poptarts, is not sustainable.

There comes a time when one must sacrifice a personal truth
for a greater Truth and some lovely beings.

And although I had written about it profusely,
in practice it was considerably more difficult.

Maybe now, I'm even willing to indulge DZ's
affinity for employees, if it helps to raise the bambinos,
without ending up in the hospital as DZ, unfortunately, did.

But, that doesn't excuse other things,
and ultimately that's between DZ and God.

>your friend
>the nematode poptart

Take care and be a good dad,

It's more important than being a pop\s\tar\t\
and ... even NN.

Salut,

GD