copyright or copy left its your choice

[michaelheap]

There are a number of ideas floating around about the whole notion of copyright, my views are well known around theese parts.

1) i support the sample culture and activly participate in it, But you will not find me genraly showing holywood or mainstream commercial stuff as a) i feel its a cop out everyone has seen it before b) much more interesting things can be said about the state of culture with slightly more ephemeral clips, something to the left of feild. it is true that some of this material is freely available in th epublic domain via the ever excelent Archive.org but some is not.

2) as artists i encourrage free speech over and above anything else. but i will caviat that by saying its your Ass swinging in the breese. if walt dysney or george lucas's army come for you in the night, they will come with men in shirts and ties. (the subtext is if your going to break the law, a know the law your braking & secondly break it sensibly, dont offend the big guys with loads of lawyers.)

fundamentaly the copyright laws exist to make money for large organisations under the pretext of supporting the 'artist' but unless your lawyer is bigger than their lawyer, i have a feeling that the small artist looses every time.

copyright laws date back to the mid 1700, and were origonaly championed by the publishing houses to stop other corporations stealing their work and selling it cheeper ie to stop piracy.

this is a long way from today: tiger woods is sewing an artist over his own copyrighted image in a picture of some golfers?
Ralph Lauren has sued VW to stop using the Name POLO as a car name as its supposedly a trade mark of his?

This has to stop.

how to change the system,
1 dont support the current system.
2 subvert the current system, use your unalinable right to 'found footage'.

rember folks the ground we tread as artists is a rocky one, but your paid to make statements, posibly contriversial, use what you need too, the future otherwise will look rather orange.


how do we stop this? by looking for alternatives. Before you copyright your own work, think seriously about looking at http://www.creativecommons.org/ for their alternatives to the seriously restricting copyright laws.

Its easier if you ignore the lawyers, and do it the easy way.

And the number one tip is: There Hasnt been a legal case against anyone about the use of sampled video: at the moment its not worth their time --> it will cost them more to prosecute you than you make in a year. EBN got away with a world tour on sampled footage. i dont see why a little club in nebraska or somerset should be any different.

[charlielangridge]

at the moment its not worth their time --> it will cost them more to prosecute you than you make in a year.

Just because the legal system of this country makes it unfeasible to take action, it does not mean it is right to steal others footage.

If you get permission, then it's ok, but otherwise you are STEALING footage. Whether you get caught or not is beside the point.

Would any of you murder somebody if you knew you could get away with it? Does it make it Ok if nobody tells you off? I hope all of you theives grow up soon and produce your own footage, get permission to use others footage or leave the industry.

[eXhale]

err... another disgusting comparison between copyright theft and murder.

http://www.vjforums.com/showthread.php?postid=11637#post11637

:rolleyes:

[charlielangridge]

sorry, let me change for everybody to be able to cope with... let's say instead of murder, it could be bank robery, fraud, assult, the point stands!

[michaelheap]

i understand the point but your not profiting from it under its current state, you are not screening a copy of the film etc. you are not using it in its current state, you have appropriated & remixed it, making it have a new context. It is in no way comparable to bank robbery, the closest thing it is closest to is to is piracy but your not copying the film in its current state.

But it is only comparable to theft in this sense, you break into a bank causing no damge and photocopy the money, then leave the bank again causing no damage, and then use the photocopies to create a montage in a gallary (Ala Akasagawa Genpei in 1967 in tokyo)

there is no theft of actual product, only a potential loss of income revenue to the creator and there are two things mittagating against this 1) the clubber wouldnt watch it in its origanal state anyway in that environment 2) it is currently impossible to licence the clip anyway in any reasnoble form.

as long as you acknowledge the origanal scource, i see no crime, its a common courtesy to reference the work your using, a simple literay device as in a bibliograpgy in a book. people often ask where my work comes from and i answer them. I havnt yet worked out how to put references into visuals without disrupting the flow, i certanly make no bones that some of the work i use i didnt create, I am not old enough to have filmed the moon landing or have the politacal connections to film the 1980's comunist wepons displays in red square.

the crime i belive is when people rip off other artists then claim its their own work.

[michaelheap]

another two points come to mind, i have never sworn at anoter board member so i would appreciate you not swearing at me.

-->it could be bank robery, fraud, assult, who gives a fuck, the point stands!<---


secondly, i realise this is going to sound like pulling rank but:
i dont know how long youve been in the 'industry' but i doubt its been as long as i have, let me think, its now comming up to 6 years, with over 30 appearances in internationaly recognised art gallerys. I also run VJs.net an organisation currently trying to sort out copyright issues for vj's as well as running an anual event to our personal loss to the industry, i also put alot of work in behind the scenes in various differing places to benifit the vj scene as a whole. im giving a lecture this sat at the ica co incidently for free, on the history of vjing so if you want to have it out face to face i will be there, supporting another long term freind of the vj scene VJ anyone.

-->I hope all of you theives grow up soon and produce your own footage, get permission to use others footage or leave the industry.<--

[charlielangridge]

I have been in the "industry" for a long while now, whether it's been directly with "VJing" or live visual mixes, lighting and sound. But that is beside the point. My opinion stands, whether you consider me to be a newbie or a seasoned pro. Although there are some instances such as you have hilighted (moon landing, propoganda - most of which are now copyright free) i refer more to the theft of work that somebody has spent good time on, such as 3D rendered pieces and specfic visual work.

As for the swearing, it was not intended as an insult to you, but as a poorly places emphasis. Since it caused offence i have removed it.

[MoRpH]

Michael, any chance of a transcript of this talk coming up for a VJC article???? I would be VERY interested to read a good solid history, I know we already have something similar up but the more the better and there are some seminal acts that were missed that i'm sure you will cover.

[michaelheap]

(moon landing, propoganda - most of which are now copyright free) i refer more to the theft of work that somebody has spent good time on, such as 3D rendered pieces and specfic visual work.


whell under uk copyright law there not public domain and are certainly not copyright free,

there is for a start no sutch thing as copyright free, anything written or saved is automaticly copyrighted, unless you make a decloration to the contary putting it into the public domain.

secondly, this is where the law gets a deep grey colour, there is no such thing as international copyright laws, they vary from country to country. and as far as i can tell, no one yet has been tested on this issue of out of date copyright from another country.

Ie: kenedy's assanation 1960's, uk copyright law = 70 years after the death of the last title holder (director,editor & producers) even if they all died that day, under the uk law copyright doesnt run out untill 2030's , Us law is 50 years from the date shot.(excuse pun), so we in the uk under uk law have a minimum of 30 years still left to wait.
and use of this footage assuming its not renewed under the current copyright laws.

ive done reserch into this and some of the first footage we can use leagaly in the uk that has run out of copytight is edison's early film work in the late 1800's again assuming its not renewed.

[charlielangridge]

I meant restriction-of-play free rather than copyright free. It is also extremely hard to renew a copyright. An example of this is the Tabasco Symbol which is at the end of it's copyright life and cannot be renewed

[michaelheap]

tobasco is a trade mark issue. and on a copyright front thats what the digital mellinium copyright act is supposed to be sorting out, in the us it was sorted out by sonny bono.

im not justifing the ripping off of peoples work, i just feel that the current system doesent work & im campaigning for a change in the law & or a change in policy of large media corporations to alow the licenceing of clips.

but when an object is more than the sum of its parts, but you cant licence its parts, dont you think thats a shame?

[charlielangridge]

I can understand you views entirely, and though not condoning copyright theft, after seeing your sets i agree that your usage has some foundings. My real attack is of the theft of clips that people have spent a lot of time / hard work on. It infuriates me when clips are stolen and played. An example of this was when ***** passed a clip specifically to wellRedm and it was online for like less that 30 mins. It had a specific note that it was for wellRedman but still a loada peeps d'loaded it and i bet it will turn up in some club. That person has just stolen from *****. ***** spent time/effort/money creating this clip and somebody has stolen it.

I hope you can all see this point, even if you do not agree with it.

[eXhale]

***** shouldn't have posted his clip here if he didn't want it to be downloaded (but i think he wanted this, just to prove his point). this place is not for private clip exchange.

[charlielangridge]

maybe, but it still proved his point!

[MoRpH]

Hmmmm actually I didn't think he ever posted a whole clip, just a still or a lo rez copy.

[michaelheap]

i do indeed, thats free loading, but ***** is a sensible chappy, if you want something to go to someone privatley use a private FTP server or email or something. i do sympathise with *****'s stuff getting ripped at a gig, but my crew, i trust my life with, we have an open policy, what is theres is mine & what is mine is theres, thats a rule you learn on the road in the back of a truck. you ask to borow it but you dont expect to get turned down, its a curtesy thing. there is no need for them to steak my stuff as they have it already. i can wake up in the morning and be bitchy because, i know that someone else will do it to me tomorow.

My view as contriversial as it may be is once its even seen the public light of day in an easily appropriable format, it may as well be public domain, think napsta, Audiogalaxy etc. as soon as you release something to the public, either by mistake or by intention, i think you must forgo the right to police what people will do with it. write it off as a bad call if it got nicked off a public server like this one, but its fundametaly a public space that anyone can access.

number one point to take from this people: dont post stuff that you dont want others to appropriate.

if your precious about your stuff, both physical & data, dont leave it lying around. i wouldnt consider leaving a laptop unattended in a club and thats the same with media if i dont want it freely distributed

[michaelheap]

again this makes my point, take care of your stuff what ever it may be, dont leave it in public if you dont want some random schmo's walking off withit

[fluchtpunkt]

Originally posted by charlielangridge
An example of this was when ***** passed a clip specifically to wellRedm and it was online for like less that 30 mins.

in german we say 'gelegenheit macht diebe': 'opportunity makes thieves'.
if you do not lock the door of your house/appartment no insurance company will give you compensation if you are robbed (i know an insurance company is no legal instance)! yet it is generally considered as personal responsability - also in a legal context - to take appropriate or at least minimal precautions yourself to prevent harm!

[charlielangridge]

It is clear to all that this was prehaps not the most sensible ways of exchanging media, but the point stands, that people from VJC stole the clip and may well be using it. Just because a film is available on DVD and easily ripped, doesnt mean it's any less wrong to rip and play bits.

[michaelheap]

i think this where me and you (charlielangridge) will have to differ in opinions, because the last time i tried to ring up george lucas to get his ok to clear samples from starwars, he re directed me to his lawyers who said i couldnt clear the samples because there wasnt enough money in it to cover their wages for the time it would take to cover writing the contract.

if you get my drift IT is imposible for reasonable cost to clear samples from major media houses. thats if you can find the holder of the copyright.

secondly, if you cant find the holder of the copyright, you under the current rules are screwed. so all that comunist leader footage i use because there was no decloration of public domain state, is defacto copyrighted & how the F**k am i supposed to find the copyright holder?

I am not a detective agency specialising in ex comunist cameramen & media producers. I do not have the time to be this petty about copyright. i do not consider it thef, i do acknolege the scource, and if the bod who filmed or owns the copyright see's it and takes offence or wants money i will take it off or pay them, until a situation occurs that i can simply clear my clips, without spending the rest of my natrual life trying to clear the footage i will continue the way i do things untill someone tells me to stop.

but this doesnt stop mindless theives ripping of peoples stuff, there is a line, but where it is is very blured

to my mind there is a distinct difference between sampaling a peice of starwars (a wee bit illegally) making a atatement about science fiction & cultural relavance and producing a clone of the film and selling cheep dvd's.

its the context thats important, i do not consider the first to be moraly wrong as long as the person acknowledges the scource, and tries to do his best (within reasnoble bounds) to clear the clip & makes use of the clip to make a statement different from the film, ie the visualist isnt telling a story about a farmboy who falls in love with his sister and ends up killing his dad, thats ok

but the current copyright laws prohibit the above.

so if its a choice of creating art my way or being an Illegal

im illegal the whole way baby.

[Anyone]

again we are blurring the copyright / licencing divide.

I mean if someone takes my footage and makes something better out of it, why should I complain?

on the other hand, if he/she makes a whole wad of cash from it, should'nt I have a piece of that pie?

How come everyone can't be happy with that?

Ne1

[Primebase3]

I know there's a difference between audio use and video use in terms of recognition where something come's from. this by it self makes sampling/ripping/theft whatever a subject to be talked about for ages : did king tubby or perry use the bassline in a song before the other one? or even more abstract : did the people in south america or 2000 miles further invent the wheel???


So you can get away with "murder" ok granted and I give dibs to micheals point that : you give props to wherever you got it from. but how far are people willing to go?? it's that border that defines the person behind the mixer and the quality of his work can people justify for themselfs to sample the spiderman intro and if so ...why?

Djshadow builds tracks on samples only almost , yet he takes the time to jump in his basement find every single snippet to clear them all , not because he has to but because he has to utmost respect for the original artist as well : this feeling of respect and admiration you can feel through his work... does that count for some peeps here as well???


my 2 cents,

[charlielangridge]

Djshadow builds tracks on samples only almost , yet he takes the time to jump in his basement find every single snippet to clear them all , not because he has to but because he has to utmost respect for the original artist as well :

Actually he does have to. All his samples have to be cleared or he will end up in court as many other artists have. It's the law, not courtesy, but an avoidence of crime.

[MoRpH]

Originally posted by charlielangridge


Actually he does have to. All his samples have to be cleared or he will end up in court as many other artists have. It's the law, not courtesy, but an avoidence of crime.

Yeah mainly because he is contracted to a record company, and they all scratch each others backs. Also he is making the material for commercial broadcast and distribution.

[charlielangridge]

Yeah mainly because he is contracted to a record company
Who do it so they dont break the law / get sued

and they all scratch each others backs.
Nothing to do with it, it's the law, not a friendly gesture. You still have to clear an Elvis song and that not a case of back scratching!

Also he is making the material for commercial broadcast.
What are you lot doing with your videos if not broadcasting them?!?!?!

[sleepytom]

No he doesn't

many sample based records are sold each year and most of them contain uncleared unlicenced samples - samples that have been processed to the point where you cannot tell where they come from - they are still samples and they are still copywrited and the authors of the music that uses these samples are breaking the law

but to attempt to move this debate on i would like to question our acceptance of the law - there are many laws in this country (britain has more than most due to our long legal history) MOST OF THESE LAWS ARE STUPID (eg it is illegal to drive sheep across london bridge??) - the reason that most laws are stupid is that they relate to a time long passed and they have not been updated to take account of modern thinking or technological advances.

so
are the copywrite laws stupid ?

i say yes because they do not allow all kinds of new invention to be taken into account (anyone who tapes stuff from TV is breaking the law not just vjs) in reality nobody gets nicked for tapeing eastenders but this is mearly down to the police not bothering to nick them - they have still broken the law and by rights should be banged up

so (given that we all think the current copywrite laws are stupid) how would we like to see them change?

i would like to see a fair use clause that allows people (vjs included) to copy any digital media for there own use and enjoyment in whole or part providing that they have a perchased copy of that media - ie i can copy my spiderman disk for my own use but i can't give my mate a copy of it

as for the public performance side of the law i'm not really sure - what would you like to see??


one other thing that i have found very offensive in this debate is people compairing theft to murder / assult / battery / rape - theft is an economic crime and one that i don't consider to be very serious, crimes where people are phisicaly harmed are FAR more serious and really can't be compaired to the act of copywrite theft

oh and another thing - why is it so wrong to use the spiderman trailer (other than on grounds of taste) the artists who created that work have been paid - a vj using a few seconds of it is not taking food from there childrens mouths - the original artists are not on royalty payments - they don't get ten pence everytime someone shows it - get over it spiderman is owned by a huge corperation - you are not causing anyone any harm by stealing it

[Jorjo]

Ok guys Lets find out.
Ive posted several time that the official bodys are monitoring VJC
Ive also done my utmost to raise the issue of legality and now find that I am no longer legal host for upholding the copyright position.

I have also made it very clear to Exhale that Im a former broadcaster and radio staiton engineer from My Pre Vjing days and am a full time professional in the backstage icircles, (respect to other fulltime pros like charlielangridge),
Lets lay the cards on the table. It was a member of an offical body that first told me about an internet site that theyed been monitoring. It so happend that It was VJc, i joined and have done all I can to raise awareness of the legalitys.


SO many of you Hate the copyright laws and feel that your entitled to use the work of others .

Heres it laid out simple.
Professionals CAN'T rip footage,
If we want to use Speilberg then we gotta pay, If we cant afford Speilberg then we dont get to play it.
Yhose of you who Steal footage can charge less and are profitering from theft
they also have distroyed the market for Public release of DVDS since the costs of production can no longer be offset against predicted sales.
The idiotic statments of so called artists trying to justify stealling what they cannot afford in the name of art, says more about them than the alledigdly intended satire, the real statment is Paraisitic theft.

Those officals that i meet regularly when working in the pro end have found my futile attempts to reason with the mentality of many VJc members absolutely halarious.


Now Im bored with trying.

We need an example and a legal precident in the UK so lets have one. I can no longer find any excuses to reason with officials ( who happen to include some close friends) to leve VJc alone while I do my best to raise awarness.

I guess its time to findout who was fire proof and who isnt.

Lets leave it to "FACT" the federation against copyright theft to follow up on the views posted by members, and pehaps we can have first hand accouts of the process from any members that get Busted.

BTW common sense applies
I dont thnk theres much risk of Vague screen names or VJC being affected directly, but those who have maintained a High profile anticopyright stance on site or who have openly provided personal information about who or where their gigs are
would be the most likely candidates for interest.

So anybody want to put there money where their mouth is?
Anybody want to step up and put an Invite to challange copyright and invite the Fact ppl in to View a set of made from stolen footage?


Michealheap perhaps? Anybody? of is it al just loose talk on VJc?
I personally believe its more to do with many members are really just bedroom VJs who don't gig and thus don't have copyright issues.
Cause regardless of sleepytoms suggestion that recording estenders would be breach of copyright, the relity is that a domestic recoding of brodcast for Domestic use only is Actually Legal, the Broadcast copyright allows this, however it dosnt allow you to play your recording in PUIBLC or for gain or reward.
Hence amature VJs and Bedroom experts arent bracking any laws.

Unless the ventur out into the pro market and expect to be paid for playing that now stolen content, And there lays the problem, the theiving wannabees messing around in the professional market, Is there a justification for them being prosecuted?

Hell yeah. .These lowlifes are hurting the reputaiton of legitimate VJs and undermining the market.

Whos it hurt if you rip the spiderman intro? It hurts Pros who LEGITAMATELY INVEST TIME AND MONEY TO CREATE WORK OF THAT QUALITY WHILE THE THEIVES SIMPLY STEAL.

Thats the good part about law, It applies to everybody and not some Pick n mix where ya get to choose which ones ya like.

so lets see who burns and who's Fireproof once and for all. and the really NICE part, The MORAL part, The Honest part is its ONLY the theives that will suffer

[spark]

...and hip hop wouldn't have come into existance, filled the coffers of the music corporations with more money than from any other genre, and the organisations/laws adapt to suit this position.

anyway, a little research often bears fruit: from the aforementioned vjs.net, a government funded body.

Video Sample Clearance
Confront the legal minefield of video sampling clearance and establish a legal convention similar to those for audio sampling. To have a dialogue with VPL and other relevant legal entities to help the growth of VJing in a way that will benefit all parties.

[michaelheap]

whell well well, this has sparked a debate,

the whole notion of pro vs non pro is bull anyway.

Coldcut are the daddys and the oldest pro's in the book, they sample period, so i belive ***** your point about pro's not sampaling is mute.

whell i seem to be the only one who's organisation is actualy prepared to do anything about it eh? i am in discussions with a government working party on this issue, as per the VJs.net constitution to sort some of this mess out, j. if youre truly interested get involved at a governmental issue, form a working party with representatives from sony & newline, & copyright lawyers & you pay for it.

and as you know j. most of my stuff is pd anyway, im doing most of this work for others, as an unalinable right for people to say what they want to say how they want to say it when they want to say it.

i belive there are are only a few people on VJc that wish to quash free speech.

fundamentaly the law is an ass, i dont employ anyone else as my lawyer apart from my lawyer, and i take legal advice from her alone, as i belive she is the only one impartial under circumastances (and i pay her enough) and i belive i am under my legal right to say whatever i wish.



P/s j. where does this paranoid conspiracy come from that people are watching this forum?

Pp/s to those who are watching, can you please identify yourselves so we can see who you are from and we can enter into negotations with your respective organisations RE: copyright clearance etc. as i dearly would like to speak to someone from a large copyright holding body other than atomfilms.com that is interested in licencing clips to vj's

[vjpixylight]

Originally posted by *****

Ok guys Lets find out.


We need an example and a legal precident in the UK so lets have one. I can no longer find any excuses to reason with officials ( who happen to include some close friends) to leve VJc alone while I do my best to raise awarness.



Okay here I am...I have the balls to take on the industry, and to all those spys and all you do-gooders out there... I have plenty examples of my work out there..(http://pixylight.vjcentral.com/projects) as well as my DVD "Alpha Code" that have plenty of examples of "sampled" video in them...

I invite anyone to take me to court, cause I will set precedent if they do...And you know what *****, no one will....So before you call anyone else in here a theif, you better be able to back it up in the courts...

This ball is going to go round and round until someone takes on the system, so here I am...go ahead...take your best shot..:nod:

BTW, Coldcut used a sampled piece from David Attenbourgh show in there video, so I used the same clip in Alpha Code...and, I hope it is used again, because David isn't going to sue eitherone of us...

[Jorjo]

Originally posted by vjpixylight


Okay here I am...I have the balls to take on the industry, and to all those spys and all you do-gooders out there... I have plenty examples of my work out there..(http://pixylight.vjcentral.com/projects) as well as my DVD "Alpha Code" that have plenty of examples of "sampled" video in them...



Good to see someone with the Balls to stand up for what they believe,
Anyone else?
Any takers in the uk?

[MoRpH]

Originally posted by charlielangridge

Who do it so they dont break the law / get sued


Nothing to do with it, it's the law, not a friendly gesture. You still have to clear an Elvis song and that not a case of back scratching!


What are you lot doing with your videos if not broadcasting them?!?!?!

Charlie, what I mean't was recording a mix for distribution on CD/DVD and then broadcast on TV or radio, not just going live to a screen/PA @ a party, I guess they both could be called broadcasting to a certain level but they are pretty different in my eyes (irregardless of copyright stuff, IMHO).

As for the friendly gesture, its a system they have built up to protect their fat cat ways, based on OLD laws that have been taken advantage of and twisted, thats why they need to be re-examined. Thats why we have the MPAA and RIAA, they are simply bodies trying to stop progress and hold on to the OLD ways when clearly NEW ideas and systems are needed.

[MoRpH]

Also instead of calling for a sacrifice to call down the lightning, just to prove some law that is outdated and stupid. Why not tell your "contacts" in this FACTS thingy to get intouch with the vjs.net ppl so everyone can get together and possibly even nut out a solution to this idiocy???

[vjpixylight]

Originally posted by *****


Good to see someone with the Balls to stand up for what they believe,
Anyone else?
Any takers in the uk?

You know *****, your a real piece of work...
To all the UK VJ's...Don't fall for *****'s good cop bad cop tricks..

He is baiting you, and he is prolly hooking up his spys at the same time...

I have nothing to hide and he knows it, but don't fall prey to his trickery..:zzz:

[Jorjo]

Originally posted by MoRpH


Charlie, what I mean't was recording a mix for distribution on CD/DVD and then broadcast on TV or radio, not just going live to a screen/PA @ a party, I guess they both could be called broadcasting to a certain level but they are pretty different in my eyes (irregardless of copyright stuff, IMHO).
.

IMHO? IN MY EYES? whats with you morph?
The broadcast and production industry employs hundreds of thousands of ppl. But In Morph opinion, Its all wrong.

So lets see, X is anti copyright, and sets up VJc, morph is anti copyright and so are most of the members... 1500 wannabees vs the industry. hell guys, Vjs.net and VJc combined might just manage to rock the economy by bringing down the movie industry....
yeeesh,

Catch a grip

And as for me drawing down the lighting, Grow up.
all that required is for one VJ to be worth the effort for a bust, but then were kinda safe here with the bedroom brigade in full swing,

the more serious reason for dealing with copyright is protecting those who actually WORK and make a living,

A basic film budget is ?3 million, and within easy reach of any content creator with a good story board. straighten out your perspectives folks. what you all seem to think is TOO expensive for your VJ use is already Inexpensive in real terms.

Pro Vjing is the tinker toy end of the Film and TV industry.
But the dizzing hights of playing 200 seater toilets, like whaow, Stardom, the combined assets of VJc's members might JUST scrape up enough budget to create one prosessional movie.
Who are you guys trying to kid?
VJing lobby against copyright.. Instead of realising you have an opertunity to get a foot hold on the bottom rung of the movie industry , VJC wants to drag it down, rip it appart and give it all away for free.

So ya dont like copyrights... the kiddys dont like playing with the grown up's rules..

Word up folks. when I walk through Belfast and see paramilitaries profitering from ripped off CDS and DVDs and see ppl shot dead on the news at nights by the same ppl, I kinda get pissed off at assholes living in dreamworlds writting ripping programs and advising ppl how to bypass encryptons and or burn copyright material.

Either play straight or get out of the indiustry.

As for demanding that someone show themselves just to explain the law and listen to VJc disagree.. whats the point?
copyright isnt very complex, either you have permision or you dont.
the quickest way to underline this is set an example....
One thing is for certian. an example will be set sooner rather than later. the only question is who and where...

instead of fighting against the existing system, VJc could have been forwarding the lot of the professional Vj by defending copyright and pushing venues to seek out licences, is in not obvious that venues with relevent licencing would respect VJs more?
But no... thats not what Vjc is about, is it? Vjc seems to be about nobodys wanting a shot at getting their art and politics on to a screen infront of a crowd. EGO trippers, fools or thieves.
the audience DONT give a damn, and the quality of work on the loop server is by and large pitiful in quality and resolution... Wheres the evidence of the VJ? AVIT was an embarresment of pitifull content a pointless statments. ( and Yeah i did get to see a video) so wheres the ART thats suposed to justify copyright theft?

Perhaps if you guys stopped fluffing your egos and bitching about reality, ya might actually turn Vjc into a positive step forward for ppl instead of a breeding ground for misfits that want to kid themselves that there on a short cut to glory and VJ fame.

Ive been surprised by how many ppl are now taking copyright issues seriously as for the otheres, Vjc is Nothing more than a website, back in the realworld nothings free or easy, but i guess if ya can't cope with that reality, you can still be a STAR VJ. all ya gotta do is lock yourself in your bedroom choose a name and join Vjc. and pretend you breaching copyright with art that nobody ever pays to see..

Catch ya later folks,
some of us got work to do.
G

[vjpixylight]

*****,
I really think that someone must of mistreated you while growing up...obviously you have no idea what underground movements are about...you remind me of Jimmy Swaggart...Preach Preach Preach...

We don't need a Preacher here, so if you think we are all just bedroom VJ's(filming porno for fun) then just let it lay, as it doesn't hurt your pressious rep any at all...

Better yet, Why don't you start another VJ site, and call it Pro VJ for Assholes..

[Jorjo]

Originally posted by vjpixylight
*****,


Better yet, Why don't you start another VJ site, and call it Pro VJ for Assholes..

if i did thot for you.. how could I be sure you'd use it?

obviously you have no idea what underground movements are about

underground as in do as ya like? break a few laws here and there rebel against the system? Follow yourdream, fight for your right...... Yada yada.

yeah good one.. Im in Belfast braindead.. we have everykind of underground movment you can think off.Music Drugs, Paramilitaries, Abortionists ,

Love your reasoning on that one dude. maybe its you that missing that underground movements are just ppl busting laws and pleasing themselves. if they manage to become popular whoopee doo, the laws change... Check out a few examples while yer there... WW2 was a fair example.. and umm oh yeah.. wasnt there a few underground movements that managed to SHAKE a few citys stateside?
Pix, dude your the guy that was saying in chat that your phones tapped and your being watched etc... .. wake up mate.. smell the coffee.the world full of ppl. ya dont need to work so hard at standing out by being All Underground

[vjpixylight]

hahaha *****,
at least you have a sense of humor...
i would join the pro VJ asshole club if there was one...:)

[fluchtpunkt]

Originally posted by *****
Lets lay the cards on the table. It was a member of an offical body that first told me about an internet site that theyed been monitoring. It so happend that It was VJc, i joined and have done all I can to raise awareness of the legalitys.
(...)
Those officals that i meet regularly when working in the pro end have found my futile attempts to reason with the mentality of many VJc members absolutely halarious.

...if out of arguments: start intimidating or threatening :o. the trick is well known & it seems to be the only one up your sleeve (which sort of dissapoints me... after all your avatar does promise a little more :evil: )
...btw: a 'corporate' awareness raiser with the spelling of a third grader??? get real!! :nod: they would NEVER want that!
(maybe you really are doing all this with best intentions, but in that case believe me: the laugh was on you! )


"We need an example and a legal precident in the UK so lets have one. I can no longer find any excuses to reason with officials ( who happen to include some close friends) to leve VJc alone while I do my best to raise awarness.
(...)
So anybody want to put there money where their mouth is?
Anybody want to step up and put an Invite to challange copyright and invite the Fact ppl in to View a set of made from stolen footage?"

...if that's what makes you happy: go ahead and sue anyone & everyone you deem suspicous or 'criminal'. go ahead & sue me in switzerland (on no factual grounds at all & though you have not seen any of my work...). after all it is your right to TRY!

[MoRpH]

Originally posted by *****


IMHO? IN MY EYES? whats with you morph?
The broadcast and production industry employs hundreds of thousands of ppl. But In Morph opinion, Its all wrong.
G

Mate I didn't say it was wrong, I just said that I think producing for display @ a party is DIFFERENT from producing for broadcast on TV or RADIO, thats all mate and as I said thats just my opinion.

1. I'm not a bedroom banger, but nor am I doing (or want to be the boss of) the scale of productions I am lead to believe you are doing, i'm just a VJ mainly interested in the performance side of the fun :)

2. I'm not anti-protecting/respecting ppls work, I am anti-current copyright law as I think its out dated and needs work. Once again my personal opinion.

3. I am anti-corperate and I think the current law serves corperations far more than artists. I call for re-exhamining the laws with regard for the artist not the corperate fat cats.

[Jorjo]

Originally posted by MoRpH


Mate I didn't say it was wrong, I just said that I think producing for display @ a party is DIFFERENT from producing for broadcast on TV or RADIO, thats all mate and as I said thats just my opinion.

1. I'm not a bedroom banger, but nor am I doing (or want to be the boss of) the scale of productions I am lead to believe you are doing, i'm just a VJ mainly interested in the performance side of the fun :)

2. I'm not anti-protecting/respecting ppls work, I am anti-current copyright law as I think its out dated and needs work. Once again my personal opinion.

3. I am anti-corperate and I think the current law serves corperations far more than artists. I call for re-exhamining the laws with regard for the artist not the corperate fat cats.

Id like to think that copyright would eventually evolve into something that would deal with the points in 2/ & 3/ .
to be honest I have similer views with one exception. in that Im not Anti current copyright. a plane flying on one out of two engines is still a flying plane ( Who could argue that it needs fixed, but 2 miles up is a bad time to decide your anti engines just cuase one turnd dead weight) I guess Im saying that I reckon without copyright the intire entertainment industry would collapse. what would come next? a napster varient and charting by spam hits?

old expression if it aint broke dont fix it.
It aint broke.. but Yeah it could do with a service.
G

[vjpixylight]

Originally posted by *****


if i did thot for you.. how could I be sure you'd use it?



underground as in do as ya like? break a few laws here and there rebel against the system? Follow yourdream, fight for your right...... Yada yada.

yeah good one.. Im in Belfast braindead.. we have everykind of underground movment you can think off.Music Drugs, Paramilitaries, Abortionists ,



So why did you turn out soooo goody 2shoes?? I thought that the cats in Belfast are all about stirring it up...

I like shaking the boat, and, as most ppl are to afraid to lose what they think they have,(maybe like you) they just follow the law, and don't make waves.. but me, I don't have anything to loose, so why shouldn't try to fix that broken engine in a plane that is going to go down anyhow??? Nothing to loose...

[MoRpH]

Yeah mate great to hear, good to see we are seeing eye to eye, but hey I'm not going up in a plane with only one engine working (hence I don't release my content in ANY FORMAT unless I don't care who gets it and does what with it, like old stuff I'm tired of).

Guess I'm suggesting why not get the heads (FACT, Govt, VJs.net legal) and bring the plane down for a complete over haul and see if we can't get something better working.

<OT rant>

What I must admit I'm pretty shitty about at the mo (which is basically OT) is how the yanks (calif.) have decided they can haul Kazaa into court even though its an OS company, and subject it to their local laws, I guess it has something to do with the yanks thinking they invented the net so their laws should apply but thats crap, same as they are trying to hold Russian coders responsible for reverse engineering when it is LEGAL in their country but illegal in the states..... US/corps same shit, all wankers.

Go watch bowling for columbine and read the stuff on the hiel bush thread and tell me any different.
</OT rant>

POWER TO THE ARTIST/PPL, fuck the corps they already have enough of our souls.

OH and IMHO it IS BROKE and if it ain't fixed the plane is DEFINATELY going down.

[pillow]

This is a very emotionate debate (is this english?:D ).

Let see it in this point of view: Is recycling against the law?
Vjs recycle films and make something new with it without any enviromment harm.

I respect vjs that make their own stock but I also respect vjs who can recycle well.

Its very hard to be artist theses days. Seem like laws is a bigger obstacle than imagination.

Welcome to the corporate world.

(sorry my english is a little clumsy :D )

[michaelheap]

Ok, i got my point across then, after a series of very heated e-mails, the law doesnt work as it stands.

there are two ways of dealing with this,

1) stand still cover your ears and eyes and create your own footage in a compleetly legal or above board way. this is the easy way, and i feel doesnt change anything, you go around in circles.

2) or we can put our differences aside, stop the macho posturing and stand together on this one, and try and change the law together, it may not benifit those who mainly create their own but it will change the lifes for a number of VJ's. No one is saying you have to change the way you VJ,

we are talking about artistic asthetic here, wether we belive the current moddle works, not wether the nazi's were realy nice guys or not.

this discussion has done exactly what i hoped it would and brought the views of a number to the table, and we have discussed things, a little scrappily, but thats what this board is for so we have the free right to express our opinions, as far as i can tell no one here is from north Korea, and so i belive we are justifyed in saying what we want.

debate is a healthy part of our society, belive it or not the law is a flexible beast, that changes to fit the mood of the populace.

Those creators out there do not loose anything by the sampalerss sampaling, (Except if you have shares in Multinational media co's- thats another discussion- capatalism vs anti capatalism we wont go there.) but the sampalers have everything to loose.

what we are discussing is fundamentaly 2 things 1)artistic asthetic, 2)the law as it stands, theese have become mixed in some peoples minds.

j --> if it aint broke dont fix it, does that mean you dont service your van? you never tweak your stuff or your set to make it better? The law needs an overhaul, a 30,000 mile service if you will. i am not proposing a removal of the law, god forbid that would lead to anarchy! but just a method ofsorting some of this mess out.

[Anyone]

nobody's suing any of us because the legal costs of taking one of us to court is higher than what they can get out from suing us.

on the other hand, licencing a clip from Hellraiser for a halloween party would cost more than what most of us would get paid for the actual gig...

but when the money situation will change (notice I didnt say "if"), when some of us start making 7 figure incomes (call me optimistic), I think we will get a lot more legal and para-legal workers interested in us...

when you do have loads of money, you are also VERY capable of hiring a legal team to bend the law your way or even lobby or, ahem (cough), bribe the right people for a considerable lower amount than that of getting sued.

But I also anticipate that for the most part all that is going to happen in a smooth transition, not overnight, and most of the present top guys will be retired by then.

By that time, if worst comes to worst, I'm sure it'll only be as petty as a standard licencing form that you fill out online from your palmpilot, stating the samples you've used on the night. and the powers that be, will pay the royalties from the licencing fees the venue pays monthly.

conclusion: no money out of our pocket. Problem? not!

Ne1

[Primebase3]

on the sample/respect issue.

He cleared everything for endtroducing. and I want to state this in big freaking letters so everybody can read it

OUT OF RESPECT FOR THE ORGINAL ARTIST AS WELL!!!


he could have not cleared the delayed ,reverbed snares but he did : just because some jazz giant drum player hitted those so nicely not because blue note needed the money(please..) !!

that's my point: cratediggers everywhere have respect for things they clear because there's the RESPECT from the artist you took it from: it's common $#@!$!#$ sense! why don't vj's have that!?!?!? and you can say fuck corps all you want but you catz are just as bad as "THE MAN" !!!

in your eyes everybody could take anything from everybody all the time (I could copy....michael's exact same set) and play 2 hour beform him on a vj expo in a far a way land.

He'd be pissed-off(duh)

1. because I didn't ASKED him (that would have been the first sign of RESPECT)

2. Because I stole it which is ..hmmm make up word uuhhm yeah RESPECTLESS!!!!


F**K THE LAW F**K MONEY this is ethics imo: ask your SELF this: if you like it SO much, do you take the time, to think how much work when't in it how many nights they've tried to get that single shot you want to have,how long that drummer rehearsed on that riff and so on??? the idea that someone put time in his "baby" and someone just take the credits without asking!!

true I started as some of the "copy"cats but later the crew and I didn't want to do that (you'll see the difference in our demoreel4 as opposed to demoreel3) anymore not because of how easy it was no because as we got better. pure and simple. we realised how much time and effort someone puts in that single animation scene from a anime flick or whatever and again we RESPECTED that so much we asked from now on.


pfff.... "put your self in the drummer shoes" lesson101 sampling,


peace.

[michaelheap]

if anyone has actualy read what i have actualy said, its all about respecting the artists, just not the money grabbing lawyers & the big buiz in the middle. if i could pay a royalty to the metophorical jazz drummer, i would but the current law doesnt alow that, only the copyright holder receives money from the clearance, and 99times out of 100 this isnt the drummer, he's been paid by the company a pittance as as a session musician, no matter how well/bad he drums or how well the record sells.

by sorting out the c. laws, hopefully it may be easier to pay royaltys to individuals, and for individuals to use those samples? makes sense no?

and tbh, on a copying my set front, thats a totaly different deal. id probably deck you if you did. but if that person used my clips after asking me, and produced something toataly new and inspiring I would be overjoyed.

m

[Primebase3]

i bought a shoe on the market (my jazz drummers riff) and you can hire my shoe for ...$


gee, rental stores seem to have that concept don't they (blockbuster video)



AND THAT'S another point: that it's business!! the jazz drummer needed money to pay for rent so he SELLS his riffs to a label
and ofcourse now that it's valuable and the label still wants to survive they SELL licenses of that riff

see.they bought that service from him! so it's theirs! that it's not fair well??: who are you? you don't know where our little drummer was , maybe he was cold ,or wanted some turkey and presents for his kids: so he sells. maybe with pain in his heart or wit joy to pay of debt or buy nice stuff... but he sells.


now you see kids digging up his records to make something out of it and they pay for that service to whoever owns those rights. if it's the drummer or the label or BMG doesn't matter : they payed for it as well.

it's called business and you can whine about for the rest of your life but it's the truth: there was a transaction before your transaction and just as with stock the price goes up by it's succes if you can pay it or not is besides the point.

the drummer needed his rent. period. that its worth more now , shit if I knew my old nes 8bit would be worth this much now I wouldn't have sold it to get a sega..sjeez :rolleyes:


peace,


PS:Micheal , you know that was just a example ...right? :D

[charlielangridge]

AS far as this argument/debate has progressed, it seems that we have come to a head as far as it seems VJC will never agree on this. There is no point slagging anybody off anymore. there are just two standpoints:

1) You create all your own footage or obtain the rights to show/use other peoples footage. This is the law abiding standpoint where you dont get to benefit from others work.

2) You use any clips you want. Whether you think them right or not you are breaking the laws. You are subject to legal action. You risk damaging both the entertainment industry and the VJ industry, but if you feel these clips will enhance your set, that's your view.

The choice with everything is up to you, but if you choose to break the law you must understand that you are doing it.

As for the Federation Against Copyright Theft (FACT) monitoring this forum, it is more likely than not. People activly admitting to be breaking the law that they are overseeing is bound to draw attention.

The law is set, whether it is being changed or not, it is as it stands at the moment. Respect it or be prepared to suffer the consequences.

BTW, unless you VJ as a limited company or alike, if you are sued they can take everything that belongs to you, not just your gear, but your house, you possesions, your savings, etc. Maybe the thought of having these all taken might remind people why breaking the law isnt a good idea!

[eXhale]

if the FACT monitors this board, it's only because mr. ***** has been calling up his "close friends" on this organization. but i doubt it is the case anyway, the same mr. ***** was claiming that the VPL was monitoring this forum a few months ago (he knew this from "close friends" in the VPL) but when people did some investigations it turned out that the VPL didn't care about video sampling and had more important things to do. mr. ***** then stopped talking about the VPL. history repeating, eh? funny how it is always UK organizations who are supposedly concerned about VJs, while there are people from all countries on this board.

either way if any member runs into troubles with the FACT, we will know who is responsible and this time i won't give any "second chances" (this must be the 18th...) to the person mentioned above. this board is not here for members to harm each other.

ps: if the FACT effectively monitors this forum, they are invited to make themselves heard. we have nothing to hide really and i personaly only use my own footage at the moment. maybe you have a solution for michael heap's unsuccessful attempts to clear his copyrighted samples?

[vjpixylight]

Originally posted by charlielangridge
AS far as this argument/debate has progressed, it seems that we have come to a head as far as it seems VJC will never agree on this. There is no point slagging anybody off anymore. there are just two standpoints:

1) You create all your own footage or obtain the rights to show/use other peoples footage. This is the law abiding standpoint where you dont get to benefit from others work.

2) You use any clips you want. Whether you think them right or not you are breaking the laws. You are subject to legal action. You risk damaging both the entertainment industry and the VJ industry, but if you feel these clips will enhance your set, that's your view.



charlie, there is one more solution to this as well...

3) clip sharing...If more ppl just would open up there libaries to others, then this whole debate would be mute...Is it because some ppl here think they are better artists than other, that this police and thieves debate has to be? I can guarentee this, if we all work together to bridge this casm, we will all benefit...As it is, only the powerful benifit, and the small artist gets screwed...

I freely invite all here to use, remix, fuckup, or do anything you like to any of my footage...

Can you do the same?:nod:

[Jorjo]

Originally posted by Primebase3


pfff.... "put your self in the drummer shoes" lesson101 sampling,


peace.

Good point. drummers need years of practice to develop talent and skill then BAMM sample a session and the drummers is obsolete.
its like sayin hey dude we don't need a drummer anymore, the drummers left with his kit and no place to drum, and if he does menage to come up with somthing new, it gets absorbed as a sample..
The more I look at the issue of sampling the more i see it as a steaming great pile of CRAP. in fact I go as far as to say Ive never seen or heard anything yet based on samples that wasnt just fashionable and expendable kack.

I guess the world of VJs is kinda like a startrek storyline where the members want to assimalate everything into a warped collectve of half baked low quality visuals made from bits ripped of otheres.
is VJc the hive?
:p

[Amukidi]

This is a tricky and (clearly) emotive issue. I suspect that everybody draws their own line, based upon many factors. I've got quite a collection of CDs from musicians / DJs I've met and worked with; I often get asked to "burn me a copy mate" by folks - one of whom is on a six figure salary - the income of these artists is purely from their music, they don't have "day jobs, they rely upon sales. Needless to say I refuse to do this and have to take the resulting strange looks on the chin. I could not bring myself to rip their hard earned dough. This standpoint has spread, for me, to all CDs - simply on a matter of principal. I believe that principals and integrity are essential for ANY professional artist - call me old fashioned, but once you live by a variable set of principals based loosely on your own convenience, you are on a downhill slope. I now for a fact that I would HATE it if I ever found that my stuff had been nicked! but on the other hand, I also really respect the likes of X, for being so generously open with his stuff - we are just different and must learn to live with it.
Before judging *****'s standpoint too harshly, we must remember that his income, mortgage, food on the table etc comes entirely from his business (i.e. he has got something to lose if things go tits up for a few weeks). Just imagine that reality for one moment and you may have a different viewpoint. On the other hand, I know and respect Michael's work - I know him to be an intelligent and provocative artist and for fuck's sake we always need them! Sitting on the fence a bit here ain't I? Not really, just trying to bring some balance into this debate, which could go on for ever, bearing in mind that we have all drawn our own lines.

[holly]

so... was ***** asked to step down as the legal forum host or did he quit in disgust? Rhetorical, I suppose. Everyone is arguing religion here, but very few are talking specifics. (I know that "stealing" is not as bad as "murder", but they're both in the top 10! :cool:) It's interesting that some of the most vehemant defenders of sampling admit that they don't use samples in their set. That's not exactly hypocracy, but it does make me wonder why they choose to defend so strongly something they personally don't find appealing for their own use (Pixy excepted, and at least he openly invites anybody to sample his videos ? I wonder if his DVD uses CSS or Macrovision...).

I just saw in a gallery a video piece that was nothing but samples taken from sci-fi movies. 20 minutes of ripped footage from Bladerunner, 2001, etc. It was called "Eye of the Future" or somesuch, and it was BOR-ing! Said absolutely nothing except that the "artist" (which is a misnomer because I wouldn't even credit the guy as an artist ? an editor, maybe) was a geek who really really thought sci-fi movies are cool. Gosh. Gee whiz.:rolleyes: There was certainly no artistic statement and it had no business being projected in a gallery. The general impression I got from the other attendees was that it wasn't worth sitting and watching. Only took about 10 seconds to recognize the samples and grasp the concept, and another 10-20 seconds to make sure there wasn't anything more to it. Nobody watched it for a full minute, much less the full twenty.

My point is that while sampling has it's place in culture, it isn't a particularly valued or lasting place. Other than PuffDaddy (and he just seems like such a poser capitalizing on hiphop's underground roots by using the most obvious and recognizable samples), sampled music isn't given much airplay here in the States, and even him not so much anymore. Video artists are only starting to come into their own in galleries and theater, but VJing seems already like such a leach-culture thing ? an add-on to DJs for a generation that grew up on MTV. Sampling is fine in the kiddie's lounge and for an occaisional goof at a club, but it certainly isn't going to hold up for the next ten years. Maybe it's just me taking my work a little more seriously and calling it art, but I don't see sampled work (audio or video) having any sort of shelf-life or longevity. As ephemeral (disposable) genre tweeking it seems fine, but I don't think it warrants the all-out war of words it's been getting here.

[vjpixylight]

Originally posted by holly
That's not exactly hypocracy, but it does make me wonder why they choose to defend so strongly something they personally don't find appealing for their own use (Pixy excepted, and at least he openly invites anybody to sample his videos ? I wonder if his DVD uses CSS or Macrovision...).



There is no kind of encription whatsoever on Alpha Code, and again I say, take freely what you want from it, remix it,(as several here have done) sample it, rip it, or take a shotgun and blast it! It is a mix by a VJ for the VJ...(unlike many music video style mixes out these days)

I would have to say that, while not the end all, be all of electronic music, the sampledelic sound has made it's mark in the electronic music of today, and will continue to be used for a long time to come.. It might just be a product of the MTV generation, but it is with us now, and IMHO, adds spice, to the electronic music of today...

As far as my willingness to get the copyright system of today fixed, already there have been a number of emails to me from posers that are suddenly interested in checking the content of Alpha Code, and thus, grabing the bait that I have unitentionally set out...
I say bring on the lawyers...
Lets see what happens..

[eXhale]

just to clarify...

Originally posted by holly
It's interesting that some of the most vehemant defenders of sampling admit that they don't use samples in their set. That's not exactly hypocracy, but it does make me wonder why they choose to defend so strongly something they personally don't find appealing for their own use.i only use my own footage at the moment because clubs pay me to do so (they want themed content) but when i get into things which interest me more as an artist, i'd like to use samples from various sources including tv. i actually already have quite a lot of samples from activist videos but these are usually not copyrighted since they want to spread the word (i plan to ask for permissions and give credits anyway). as for vj videos, i don't think i'll ever sample them since they are too processed and i need rough stuff.

content is the most important for me, and if i support sampling it's because i don't want to be restricted on the content i use on my art, not because i'm too "lazy" to film my own stuff. people who don't understand why we can't just use our own footage obviously have never wanted to use footage of, for example, bush on their mix (think you can get in the white house to film around?).

and once i have something i'm satisfied with i plan to make it all available to other vjs if they want to. i hope they'll not just use it out of "lazyness" but whatever, i don't care, information need to be free. congrats to pixylight for showing such an open mindness.

[Primebase3]

Originally posted by holly

My point is that while sampling has it's place in culture, it isn't a particularly valued or lasting place. Other than PuffDaddy (and he just seems like such a poser capitalizing on hiphop's underground roots by using the most obvious and recognizable samples), sampled music isn't given much airplay here in the States, and even him not so much anymore. Video artists are only starting to come into their own in galleries and theater, but VJing seems already like such a leach-culture thing ? an add-on to DJs for a generation that grew up on MTV. Sampling is fine in the kiddie's lounge and for an occaisional goof at a club, but it certainly isn't going to hold up for the next ten years. Maybe it's just me taking my work a little more seriously and calling it art, but I don't see sampled work (audio or video) having any sort of shelf-life or longevity. As ephemeral (disposable) genre tweeking it seems fine, but I don't think it warrants the all-out war of words it's been getting here.

first of I want to say this and this goes for *****'s : "sampling is a hype" comment.


first off I'd like to say: sampling rocks! and it's existence spans over 30 years(!) if not more. from crazy eboman-esque shows too squarepushers fantastic composition to a good sampled vidloop they all rock : if you use it the right way like some do here you can get perfect shows.

I know it's a matter of taste but I don't think you can put sampling in such a simple "hype" category. when rightly executed it can look better sound better if you did it from scratch. and to tell you the truth: it's an art to control as well.
(grab some shado/aphex/el-p/rjd2/squarepusher tunes and take a good hear, it's just as groundbreaking for sampling as the alan parsons project (the I robot one) for composing and arranging.)


as for its use in video I saw a sample only show yesterday from radio r.e.l. and it's was a blast !! he got a room filled with artloving people(who talk alot man but are generally cool) and hyperactive kids completly silent. ... perfect.

as for the law: well , there 2 things you can do: follow it or not. I must agree ,with video it's tough but never the less necessary , this talk about sampling got me to look at my old stuff and was amazed: with progression came less to no sampling or sampling in a completly different way. I agree with ***** that illegal sampling is not done BUT the apllications for paying should change to a simpler system so that you can pay your dues to the originator/licenseholder in fast and easy way. the price depends on the holder(if it's a big corp well, gonna be a steep price, if it's smaller corp or the artist himself cheaper: not fair?: stop crying it's bizz) in holland sampling is "accepted"(it there ever is such a thing) in art when done in good moderation ..and I must agree.

that was it. for the rest: can we just focus on some more multibenificial stuff here on vjc: like tutorials for the vjsoft fans and edit tutorials for prem or AE much more handy and imo : much less focus on : you can't to this or that in your set? it's yours. (as nas would say in his old days) so let everybody decide for them selfs what to do? just a idea.


peace.

[sleepytom]

Originally posted by *****



The more I look at the issue of sampling the more i see it as a steaming great pile of CRAP. in fact I go as far as to say I've never seen or heard anything yet based on samples that wasn't just fashionable and expendable kack.

:p

well there you go once again the so called pro is unable to appreciate the work of anybody else unless they are solely obsessed with big name gigs, live cam feeds and celebrity VIP rooms..

for fucks sake ***** have you not heard of hiphop?? if you genuinely believe that there is no way to use samples in a creative way i strongly suggest that you look at
Revolution (coldcut) (http://www.ninjatune.net/videos/video.php?type=ra&id=12)
bits and pieces live (coldcut) (http://www.ninjatune.net/videos/video.php?type=ra&id=9)
We will rock you (ebn) (http://http.dvlabs.com/gnn/asx/gnn/rockyou_med.asx)
S-11 redux (guerrilla news network) (http://www.sundanceonlinefilmfestival.com/shorts01_06.html#)
steinski's "right back" and "the motorcade sped on" (no download location known)
hexstatic and coldcuts timber (http://www.ninjatune.net/videos/video.php?type=ra&id=10)
anything by hexstatic in actual fact
anything by exceeda
anything by EBN for that matter (oh and ebn did a WORLD TOUR with U2 so before you go off shouting about how none of these folks are pros who have the industry at heart you should take a look at the kind of achievements these people have behind them)

maybe these videos are not to your taste? - that's ok i don't ask you to like them, just to appreciate the creative skill used to create them and the fact the sampling is a valid aesthetic and that it can be used in a creative way to make new art from existing work (i don't know why I'm bothering to do this really as the rest of the art / music world has accepted this for going on 20 years now - come on get with the program...)

[brain]

sleepy,

why do you STILL bother to explain? i guess it's of VERY little use... :rolleyes:

[sleepytom]

i dunno mate - i guess its just a way of avoiding getting on with the html i have to write today...

[WordVirus23]

I've honestly come to think that poor ***** has some friends in the industry, and out of pity, they set him up with a residency at a club. and here is where poor old, bitter ***** will rot away, yammering on about how "everyone is stealing" while an entire generation quickly passes him by. have fun dumbass. bedroom VJs eh? I realized today while browsing for music at Tower records, that I'd done visuals for quite a few of the artists whose CDs I was browsing through. the world is MY bedroom ;)

..james...
Pilot/Director
NoInput: Visual Product
Central CA

[WordVirus23]

funny you should mention this whole jazz drummer thing, but if any of you know professional jazz musicians many actually are being replaced by samples.
so hey ***** " WE DON"T NEED A DRUMMER ANYMORE"
(they can't drum fast enough for long enough anyhow)
hey ***** "WE DON"T NEED A VJ ANYMORE"
(if *you're* what you call a VJ)
god! do you practise being this annoying or does it just come natural like?

Originally posted by *****


Good point. drummers need years of practice to develop talent and skill then BAMM sample a session and the drummers is obsolete.
its like sayin hey dude we don't need a drummer anymore, the drummers left with his kit and no place to drum, and if he does menage to come up with somthing new, it gets absorbed as a sample..
The more I look at the issue of sampling the more i see it as a steaming great pile of CRAP. in fact I go as far as to say Ive never seen or heard anything yet based on samples that wasnt just fashionable and expendable kack.
:p

[eXhale]

true james, on the band i do visuals for they started using samples when the drummer left and it works even better. *all* musical genres which appeared last century were called "passing hype" by various "experts/pro" who just felt threatened in what they did and failed to upgrade their mode of thinking.

[fluchtpunkt]

Originally posted by eXhale
*all* musical genres which appeared last century were called "passing hype" by various "experts/pro" who just felt threatened in what they did.

lol :D

even j.s. bach himself was confronted with such (or worse) an environment from his 'artistic' friends! (he e.g. dared consider a third a consonance :eek: )

[Jorjo]

Originally posted by sleepytom


well there you go once again the so called pro is unable to appreciate the work of anybody else unless they are solely obsessed with big name gigs, live cam feeds and celebrity VIP rooms..

for fucks sake ***** have you not heard of hiphop?? if you genuinely believe that there is no way to use samples in a creative way i strongly suggest that you look at
Revolution (coldcut) (http://www.ninjatune.net/videos/video.php?type=ra&id=12)
bits and pieces live (coldcut) (http://www.ninjatune.net/videos/video.php?type=ra&id=9)
We will rock you (ebn) (http://http.dvlabs.com/gnn/asx/gnn/rockyou_med.asx)
S-11 redux (guerrilla news network) (http://www.sundanceonlinefilmfestival.com/shorts01_06.html#)
steinski's "right back" and "the motorcade sped on" (no download location known)
hexstatic and coldcuts timber (http://www.ninjatune.net/videos/video.php?type=ra&id=10)
anything by hexstatic in actual fact
anything by exceeda
anything by EBN for that matter (oh and ebn did a WORLD TOUR with U2 so before you go off shouting about how none of these folks are pros who have the industry at heart you should take a look at the kind of achievements these people have behind them)

maybe these videos are not to your taste? - that's ok i don't ask you to like them, just to appreciate the creative skill used to create them and the fact the sampling is a valid aesthetic and that it can be used in a creative way to make new art from existing work (i don't know why I'm bothering to do this really as the rest of the art / music world has accepted this for going on 20 years now - come on get with the program...)

Yawn yawn tom.
Did ya forget DNA maiking a balls of toms diner? where the point of the peice was it being accapelle buit the sampilist morons missed the point
So why not quote Jive bunny in your list of samples? their work and coldcuts are exactly the same
Whats the thing about hero worshiping Hextatic and coldcut?
Like i said in the previous post, Ive seen/heard nothing sampled yet thats been anything wonderfull and that includes your heros.

You seen to have a lot of opinions tom considering you dont know you facts from your arse, and In a post a while back explained how tha DHSS had to supporrt ya cause they couldnt get you a job..
Perhaps id have more time for your bullshit if you where a VJ that GIGED and where the kinda person how earns their keep..

Dossers in flophouses. Doing the double and handing out advice on Ripping, is really the kinda a opinionated scum I resent being taxed to feed.
28p per barrel would be tax enough,
Thumpt thumpt click. But theres a law against that,, But since you guys reckon the law is grey as long as you can justify yer art... Hell whats wrong with abstract art, while improving the employment figures?

Sampling is the relm of the talentless wannabe musician.
Sampling is the psudo sound engineer jerking off
Sampling is the last hope of the Nobody who seekin fame
Sampling is secondhand news making second rate product
Sampling is lego for media , a kiddy toy to disearn apptitude
Sampling is sub culture devoid of originality by default
Sampling is The Goal of the cumputer geek and bane of the VJ
Sampling is borrowing talent and fooling yourself
Sampling is the admission of medeocraty

So yer a sampler? Yeah just wait in the car son.
Aint this a vJ forum?
oooppps sorry I forgot.. its a practice froum for wannabees too.
Sorry guys the opinions of wankers on the dole dont cut it. Come back when your living in the realworld. with Wrok, with bills,with iovestment. and without moma or the socail wipein your ass.

Sampling is theft unless you pay for the sample.
Besides the fact that sampling video is totaly diffrent from audio.
The only issue is that your a thief or you not.
the copyright laws may need a service . but laws make societys. else ways I could get to stretch a few necks and video for the fun of it.

But hey.. theres always that whole underground scene where anything goes.. hell ya could do it anyways and claime it was a found sample.

LMAO at VJC members thinking they matter and their opinions count.
A large percentage of screenanmes here are Asshole's who have no life beyond VJc. I Vj fulltime .. heheh The comments of looser wannabees and talkers. Are a JOKE. Even our great dictator X and his so called Values. LMAO X and his croneys and their kangaroo court. I guess most of you dont know but VJC IS A FARCE.. it had to potential to make a diffrence but it turns out to be EXHALEs only Claim to fame.

X refused professional advise offered for free by a london company, saying it wasnt what VJC was about and I have been stepped down because VJC isnt about Legtitimate VJs..

BTW a quick note to all members, If your gigning and i want that gig, I will not hesitate to make a play for it, opening gambits will include legalalitys, such as tax, vat, dhss and copyright awarness of the gig in question, then price quality and reputation.
In short, If your not legal, goodenough, or capable of providing a total professional solution. then i reserve the right to BID for you GIGS and Fuck this BULLSHITE ALL BUDDIES VJC ethos.
IM NOT YOUR FREIND. AND IVE NO INTENTION OF BEING. that hasnt changed since day one.
I will happily help beginers who are serious about vjing, and just as happily Fuck over any getting asshole in my way.
Word up to the opionated theives on the boards.. I want you out of the game for no other reason than it pleases me to do something about it. Im legit and fireproof so lets play hard ball..

Ive helped a few Vjs up, time to knock a few back.. LKets be sorting out the shit VJc where spouting about online Vs the real world.. consider the heads up final on the subject..
work with me and we will all get along just fine
fuck me off and ill fuck you over anyway I can.. or your buddy or whoever, but either wat#y, Im fucked off at VJC being a Breeding ground for bottom feeders and thieves.
SO count me in as somebody prepaired to stand Up and fight against that SHIT..
EXHALE the wannabe savior of the world, Is just a dictator
Wordvirus,,, Personal project to fuck that dickhead up Including his real id (fool)
is everybody clear? NO more MR nice guy.. your either freind or foe. your either are of benifit to my company or your a competitor to be dragged down and walked on..

heres a clue.. Fiar and moral dont matter. legit or not legit do.
I dont give a fuck if Bush is an alien.
I dont give a damn if you are gassed in your sleep.
i don't even give a damn if the capitol of your city is vaporised.

I give a damn about earning my living and anybody in my way is fair game. those of you crying about how unfair that is are the dumb fucks evolution dictates are bottom of the food chain.

Whats the problem with you fools? Bush is going to war. Be fucking greatfull. KILL or be killed. Saddam or you.? Umm lemme think about that??? Doohhh, shoot him, hell shoot all of them men women and childrem.. wipe out the lot.. problem solved.
peace returns.

Hint.
Dont shit in the nest
Dont attract the preditor.
Dont fight if you won't win
Don't underestimate your enemy
keep your friends close and your enemys closer.

Cope !
Bottomefeeders get your gigs by undercutting.
preditors do it by putting you out of bussiness and don't care that you think its unfair. Id rather expand my market into venues currently covered by ppl I dislike, than not.

You muppets still think I want to be liked or am seeking your approval. Wrong. I respect only a few VJs who are all dedicated professionals, and playing it straight

Theres no sense of achievement spearing fish in a barrel. particularly when the fish are begging for it.

My thanks to all of you who have provided me with an insight to where your weakness are.

Ya gotta love guppies.

G

BTW the mark of the professional is knowing where ya fit in the food chain.. playing samples? LMFAO, jeezz guys the entertainment industry would Just collapse without ya'll as it's
foundation,, FFs grow up, Loops as art? its like compairing lil heap of sticky yellow "post it notes" to publishing a book.
(heap? ummm....)
Catch yourselves on folks, Geeks with lappys LMFAO, Next thing youll try simulating with softs is having a life.. ooops too late
Too much tv... VJc could prolly sue star trek for basing the borg
on it members. but no the hive dont sue..

Yeeshh

Folks. WAKE UP FFS.
the whole community crap is an idealists dream and I aint playing.
VJc is just fish in a barrel and Im Down with exploiting that in any way I choose.
the diffrence is Im telling ya all UP FRONT and dont give a flyin fuck if it pissis ya off.

the fox is in your hen house, let the squalking begin.
hehehhehe :P

[spark]

right well ***** stating he would prefer members shot is about the limit for me... there is no debate with this tosser, and thats the lightest thing i can say. so from here on in, a ***** filter.

[fluchtpunkt]

the fascist has had his 'coming out' - at last!
very funny scotty indeed :evil: !

[vjpixylight]

sounds like you need to move on *****...you obviously don't like it here at VJC, so why don't you move on to a place where you and your professionals can do business..It obviously isn't here anymore...

[charlielangridge]

where did J say he would shoot someone?

[Jorjo]

Originally posted by spark
right well ***** stating he would prefer members shot is about the limit for me... there is no debate with this tosser, and thats the lightest thing i can say. so from here on in, a ***** filter.

Where?
Oh? 28p per barrel Thumpt thumpt Click?
Spark being pariniod twat,
28 pence per truss barrel. errecting truss thumt thumpt click, truss = abstract art and working when in receipt of social benifits is illegal.. what did you figure I ment? a shotgun or something?

nice one spark.. VJc in action everybody guilty till proved innocent.

Nope. I guuss I' ll hang around the watering hole a while longer, theres still fun to be had, and besides,, Ive yet to get round to settling a few outstanding issues, and expose a few hypocrites
:p
BTw I must be psychic.. i just knew a few chickens would start squawken
G

[spark]

_filter engaged

vjforums.com > control panel > ignore list

type *****

and VJC becomes a worthwhile place once more, with a few of these:

This person is on your Ignore List. To view this post click [here]

[holly]

Wow, you can do that? I had no idea.... Cool.

Hmmm. Does this mean we have to spin off another "censorship" debate?:p

[spark]

no - thats the beauty of it. i've made my decision, acted, and this is the last you're gonna hear of it. and it feels good to be able to say that :D

[eXhale]

indeed it does feel good. :)

[MoRpH]

Originally posted by *****
the whole community crap is an idealists dream and I aint playing.

Well then maybe its time to leave.

BTW please don't launch into personal attacks to display your dis-like of a particular practice (sampling) its OT and offensive.

[Jorjo]

Originally posted by MoRpH


Well then maybe its time to leave.


Damn Morph I am surprised
.. i didnt think youd want to leave after all your work here :)
Stay mate. Id miss ya. :p

You could always just click ignore.. (but then everybodys afraid of missing something and takes the ignore off again, then look a fool when they prove it by posting a reply to a post they claim they have ignored).

hehe the ignore function is the Net equivilent of kicking over the chess board. Classic.
The comedy continues, cheers Spark :p
G

[MoRpH]

:p nice one, still its hard to want to stay when someone is just trying to wreck it for everyone :(

[Jorjo]

Originally posted by MoRpH
:p nice one, still its hard to want to stay when someone is just trying to wreck it for everyone :(

yeah I thought that too when he decided to stand me down as legal host. But hey, theres no point in us bitchin about it, Morph mate.. its his domain and in his domain His word is Law :p
G

[vjpixylight]

Originally posted by MoRpH


Well then maybe its time to leave.

BTW please don't launch into personal attacks to display your dis-like of a particular practice (sampling) its OT and offensive.


Hahahaha, *****, I really think you are being blinded by your own light(or lack of it) as I think Morph was implying from your statement that he quoted, that it was maybe time for you to leave...

[MoRpH]

I'm not getting into this on this thread as its completely OT.

[Jorjo]

Originally posted by MoRpH
I'm not getting into this on this thread as its completely OT.

;)

[kommy]

nice i got an irish first and last name, but havnt made it over to the motherland yet, its nice to see where i get it from though


edited to say: but damn *****, you sounded a little worked up buddy, they got weed in the motherland?

[vjpixylight]

a well placed sample can just make the song(or Video) and must be allowed, plain and simple..

[MoRpH]

I was gonna say lets get back on topic, but thanks for that pixy :)

[kommy]

oh yeah back on topic:
i like copyright, well i dont, well i do, well i dont, well i do
(just copy the above line and paste into your next post for maximum in time saving efficiency)

[MoRpH]

Like is says in the title "its YOUR choice"

[kommy]

i like sampling, well i dont, well i do, well i dont, well i do

[kommy]

so this question keeps plaguing my mind
***** are you the people youve been warning us about for so long?

[Jorjo]

Originally posted by kommy
so this question keeps plaguing my mind
***** are you the people youve been warning us about for so long?

Hu? me .. Naw mate.. no way.. FFs Im way worse than that.
Whats this mother land bullshit?


If all the ppl that claimed to be from here came back the damn Island would sinK


Check yer passport?
If ya wernt born here your not from here.. Get over it.

Bloody ejit.

G

[kommy]

thats the spirit

motherland bullshit was exactly that...bullshit,
my greatgrandparents came over here from there to get away

[MoRpH]

/me puts on his leuprechaun outfit and says "where's me Potatoes" :p
http://www.mainstrike.com/mstservices/WebCard/images/St_Patricks_Day/Leprechaun.gif

1/4 irish blood here. Still looking forward to seeing ireland and scotland, you know family history and all that.

OK back to your scheduled (although not as amusing) programming

[kommy]

a true warrior is invincible because he or she contests with nothing. defeat means to defeat the mind of contention that we harbor within.

opponents confront us continually, but actually there is no opponent there.
enter deeply into an attack an neutralize it as you draw that misdirected force into your own sphere.

move like a beam of light,
fly like lightning,
strike like thunder,
whirl in circles around
a stable center

-Ueshiba

edited to say: that i sampled that

[Jorjo]

Originally posted by kommy
a true warrior is invincible because he or she contests with nothing. defeat means to defeat the mind of contention that we harbor within.

opponents confront us continually, but actually there is no opponent there.
enter deeply into an attack an neutralize it as you draw that misdirected force into your own sphere.

move like a beam of light,
fly like lightning,
strike like thunder,
whirl in circles around
a stable center

-Ueshiba

edited to say: that i sampled that

hu?
Sounds like a he's discribing a mosqueto.
Gotta agree with the stable center bit (wonders if Kommy has one).
Stable center , rolled up newspaper, splat. problem solved.
WTF's this guy on?
Shut the site quick.. I think its attracting them....

[kommy]

ahh...come on in the waters nice......
the harder you kick the faster you'll drown
you already jumped in the deep end

[brain]

ah people,

haven't you realized yet that mr. Js ego is feeding mainly off conflict?? every kinda hassle he manages to rise gives him the kicks.

i'm getting a bit tired to see one member after the other getting into close combat with him until being tired... next member stepping up, and thread after thread is filling with rather useless fights and bad vibes.

the best way to end this is to just ignore the provocation (it's hard i know!). just don't do him the favor anymore to give him the feeling of being important...

i'm sorry i have to say this (because some of his statements really had their point), but i'm SO fed up with the style of communication he sparks everytime everywhere. :o

no more from me on that topic.

brain

[Jorjo]

Originally posted by brain
ah people,

haven't you realized yet that mr. Js ego is feeding mainly off conflict?? every kinda hassle he manages to rise gives him the kicks.

i'm getting a bit tired to see one member after the other getting into close combat with him until being tired... next member stepping up, and thread after thread is filling with rather useless fights and bad vibes.

the best way to end this is to just ignore the provocation (it's hard i know!). just don't do him the favor anymore to give him the feeling of being important...

i'm sorry i have to say this (because some of his statements really had their point), but i'm SO fed up with the style of communication he sparks everytime everywhere. :o

no more from me on that topic.

brain
Close but no cigar Brian
Its not ego its just experience, and I to am sick of ppl quing up to have a pop. the sooner the members lining up to pick a rows the sooner VJc can resume normal programming..

It pisses me off to see VJc continiously ripp the shit out of ppl who arent sample or loop soft orentated,
Example being the Dj who joined us yesterday.
Facts of life Brian.. Ive contributed More to VJ c than most just check the karma and the post count... and have done so despite the continious bitchin ive witnessed from day one.
Its not in my nature to bow down to a mob. but hey your right .. everybody thats ever line'd up to pick on me has resorted to personal attacks and fell down on points.
]Theres a diffrence here folks. Im no newbie and I make my living out there Vjing.
You think its ego? wrong, ive nothing to prove to your or any body else. I do this because I can and do make a diffrence.
those that dont like what I post flame me and i defend. what do you expect?
Nice of you to notice that theres a line of ppl wanting to have a pop.
it would be kinda cool if they stopped.
think on it brian.
your call.

g

[charlielangridge]

So, will this thread be the longest on VJC? Will arguing cause a VJF record. Only time will tel...

[sleepytom]

just for the record ***** i'm not on the dole (so there goes your plan of ringing your imaginary friends in the dole fraud office) - i make a living from visuals, one way or another - its a fulltime job for me - so you see it is possable to do this fulltime without becoming a total wanker

(if you read the thread again you'll see that i said that "usual status of a vj in the uk is unemployed" - i was kind of taking the piss? ??)

[Primebase3]

so.. yeah well ...yeah.. shit.. can we return to the normal programming again? : can we ALL act like professionals (damn that I had to use a resevoir dog line: that's sad)


peace(and lots of weed..please,..damn),

[holly]

Dear Hosts:

Now that several people are asking to get back on topic, and the thread is definitely no longer about changing copyright law, (and there's the feeling that posters are now basicly rubbernecking an accident,) I would humbly submit that this is might be one of those times where you consider splitting the thread.

I will try to remember to delete this post either way (but please feel free to delete if convenient).

thanks.

[syzygy]

Okay, this thread has drifted too far from its original point.

I'm going to close it off now so that some of the interesting points that have been raised can be started as separate threads.

I hope everybody will agree that this is for the best.

Dan.