Theories about RE:Mixing and Sampling

[fALk]

In the search here on the forums and elsewhere on the net I have yet to find a theoretical explanation about remixing and sampling that goes beyond the politics of copyright. I am aware that for a lot this is a huge part of why they remix and sample yet I can not get the thought out of my mind that most people doing sampling and remixing are trying to take a shortcut to fame and richness without any labour. Convince me please as I am in the dire need to actually have convincing ideas from the "prosample proremix camp" for a research project I am on at the moment. Except for the cultural "message" that has been beaten to death in both audio and video I can find no theories behind it.

Possible questions that come to mind:

Why do you think remixing a piece made for a different media (television film) is working in a VJ setting? (the loop, the context, the narrative, the content)

What other views or insight does a live remix give the audience over the original?

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Please purely theoretical analyzation -> no financial problems, no "remix culture" comments - there are millions of those on these forums and throughout the net and I am well aware of them - I want thinking insight that goes beyond "its what everyone does", "its cheap to do for the poor vj", "its a politcal/cultural statement".
I do think there might be some ideas on the audio side too, so if anyone has any hints to a discussion taking place there (again no copyright/culture war/itscheap/everythinghasbeendonesoweneedtoremix arguments).
This is intended to be a non - biased thread if you like "in favour" of remixing - you can bring on your arguments for the future to read. I want to describe (and understand for myself) remixing theory apart from the cultural reference and there is nothing to be found.

[DrEskaton]

i think you're asking a meaningless question.

remixing and sampling video is a technique. it can be used to make any number of statements any of which might have a different theory behind it.

why should all of remix/sample art have a common theory behind it? it's like expecting all oil painting to have a common theory. it doesn't, it's just a tool, a method.

i could sample and edit a montage of celebritys to make a point about pointless quest for perfection.

or i could make a point about the individuals powerlessless in the face of relentless media barrage.

i could sample bushes speeches and cut them up to make an antiwar statement

ad infinitum....

[fALk]

so that is "recontextualisation" which has its merit yes and rereading some other posts: yes that seems to be the implying undertone - its all about recontextualisation - but is it? What about the dancing remix over on the other thread? Is that recontextualising anything?

montage is a technique yet I could tell you a million and one theories about montage in film (Eisenstein f.e.). So if remixing is a technique why are you using that technique instead of generative (also multiple theories) or producing your own stuff?

[DrEskaton]

me personally?

I do all of the above, I mix samples, real time generative graphics, self created pre rendered graphics and shot live action footage.

why use samples at all? because when someone else has done the work of marketing a meme for you and implanting it through mass media in millions of people's minds, it can have a more direct and powerful impact than a new visual symbol that someone has never seen before.

there is also something subversive about "using their own symbols against them"

to not use samples would be denying myself a potentially powerful tool. why should I do that?

the artistic merit or lack thereof is in what I make from the samples and must be decided on a case by case basis.

[visualove]

Get Paul D Miller's book Rhythm Science http://www.djspooky.com

[fALk]

thanks visual good starting point :) ordered it already....

btw: this thread has nothing to do with the "Cleared by Hollywood" and its just accidental that the other thread happened around the same time. I am sincerely interested in this topic for a research project and need to actually argue in favor of sampling (which is hard as hell for me). So any personal insight from anyone that I could quote out of - very good vj sampling examples that make really creative use of sampling etc. would be welcome.

[sleepytom]

what are you trying to argue? that sampling has some inherent artistic value? would you argue that chisels are inherently artistic?

i think this is the root of the problem - because of the legal position of sampling people tend to misinterpret what it actually is - sampling is mealy a process to assemble another work by. I would suggest that you move away from the fire a bit and look at the theory of collage - this is essentially the same process for traditional art as sampling is for VJing.

remixing is somewhat different and to be honest has not really happed in film yet - the process of remixing in music is to take the original recordings and restructure them into a different piece of music - to remix a film one would need access to all the rushes (and possibly the cast and crew to enable new scenes to be shot) - you would then reassemble the shots in a different order to change the narrative of the film. to simply remove the narrative and chop it up into a rythmical audio visual piece is not so much a remix more a cutup.

[cat]

have you seen the film trailer remixes?
http://www.tatteredcoat.com/archives/2005/09/28/the-shining-redux/
for example?
There are a whole host of others there, and they're very funny. They do indeed give a different meaning to an existing peice of video.

[sleepytom]

yeah they are actual remixes in the way that music gets remixed - i'm yet to see anything done like this in a VJ context though

i guess if / when VJing gets out of the dance floor obbsessed club and into the cinema then we might start to see some more interesting use of live editing to recut exisiting well known narratives - whilst we are limmited by attempting to produce AV for dancing to then i doubt this will get very far.

may be the cluster one people are getting closer to this stuff - their christmas cutup (http://www.cluster-1.com/xmas/) was one of the better examples of pop culture recontextuliztion that i've seen from VJs

[dansmachine]

remixing is somewhat different and to be honest has not really happed in film yet - the process of remixing in music is to take the original recordings and restructure them into a different piece of music - to remix a film one would need access to all the rushes (and possibly the cast and crew to enable new scenes to be shot) - you would then reassemble the shots in a different order to change the narrative of the film. to simply remove the narrative and chop it up into a rythmical audio visual piece is not so much a remix more a cutup.

Already in 1997 I remixed 'Wasted!' (http://imdb.com/title/tt0117142/), a fast-paced drama movie about techno and drugs by Ian Kerkhof, the director, who gave me copies of all rushes. It took me a couple of weeks to sort everything out (pre-computer age for me) but it was worth the effort: over 350 people attended at first performance (Effenaar/Eindhoven) and because of that it could be done a second time at a local festival (Virus, at the City Theatre; 500+ att.). Very unfortunately that was the end of this story, because when I was invited to do it again at the Dutch Filmfestival, Ian asked me not to do it since he wasn't the copyright-owner and he wasn't allowed to give me the rushes in the first place. Pity, I could have been world-famous for that in the Netherlands ;)
Looking back at it I don't think it was very good, especially not according to present standards. Still I think it was pretty original and I don't know if anyone else has ever done a feature-remix using all rushes. The following movies I had to make at filmacademy I shot with the remix allready in the back of my head; I even took a vj on set to make premixes of the scenes that were being shot (I used 2 cameras). The edited result never was as exciting as the live remixed performance.

Nowadays I still use samples, besides self-shot material. It has developed though from AddictiveTV-style loops and scratches toward organic compositions in which the original material is still recognizable, but processed in such way that a complete new esthetic and/or meaning arises.

[vjklik]

what used to bug me to no end back when I was doing visuals was how I spent countless hours creating my own images and content to put up on the screen while DJs were becoming FAMOUS and raking money to bring in someone else's music which they played through a sound system on turntables which were set up before they arrived. But over time I came to realize that a lot of what made a good DJ had a lot more to do with how much time he or she spent scouring record stores and digging out the great tracks or the funky remixes that nobody else had. I think the same is probably true of VJs to an extent.

If you're going to be mixing "sampled" content into your mix it would probably be to your benefit to use those samples in a way that brings out some special quality that redefines it in some way, but is not familiar or instantly recognizable. It still seems somewhat unfair in retrospect but I'm of the opinion that those who just mix samples run the risk of being no different than the next guy unless he or she is able to work them in ways that make the mix more than just the sum of its parts. A DJ who merely plays the recordings that are readily available may be able to get gigs and keep the dancefloor moving doesn't stand a chance against a well-connected vinyl prospector who manages to stay on the cutting edge with fresh sounds that make other DJs jealous.

I remember seeing video projections of "Fantasia" or "The Mind's Eye" at parties and thinking, "Hey thanks for taking something I've seen elsewhere and putting it on the big screen for whatever reason, way to stop at blockbuster before the show." But there was a time when I was fond of using a luma key on merrie melodies and betty boop videos over the eye candy I'd made because I liked how all the dancing cartoon characters from the 30's and 40's seemed to sync with techno so well. That makes me a hypocrite I guess. :gag:

[fALk]

sleepy: For an upcoming article I need to portray different "forms" - or "tools" (as in content not in gear) if you want - of VJing and since there are so many VJs always arguing in favor of sampling (and therefore remixing as a subform of sampling?!) I think its vital that I write about it - since I am not into that even the slightiest bit and can?t get any insight from former postings about the nitty gritty ideas (people must have thoughts when they use samples) I thought I ask.

On a side note: the best "remix" "sampling" I have ever seen personally was at the first AVIT in Leeds at the "30 screen party". There was someone doing TV News anchors from all over the world with that well known screen behind them showing a picture and then the line below the picture was altered. Anyone knows what I am talking about? Who that was? If they are still alive and doing that?

Thanks for your thoughts throughout: nice quotes to be derived ;)

dans: you have any example (can be a pic or a shitty short 10 second recording or whatever) that underlies your last line?

in which the original material is still recognizable, but processed in such way that a complete new esthetic and/or meaning arises.

And for cat: I really just look for examples and thoughts that somehow classefy under the VJ umbrella.

[andythetwig]

I don't really give a shit about copyright. I have never understood how dj's are able to buy a record for a fiver and play it (in full) in public, and yet vj's have to spend hours on the phone to idiots in publishing who don't have a clue how to license footage for vjing, or paying for overpriced clips.

Let's face it, if we all followed the rules, vjing wouldn't exist. I'm all for DIY footage, but if you need a hollywood explosion, it'd be a waste of petrol to make your own.

[sleepytom]

Falk i'll list some of my favorite samples and you can probably see why i like them.

1 Prince Charles (our next in line to be king) Breakdancing - Charlie is getting down with a bunch of bboys (clues as to the power of this sample - breakdancing is a VJ clich?, The future king is a headcase, Old rich people trying to be "down with da kids" is funny. etc etc)

2 C3PO dancing - (not from starwars) C3PO dances around in the campest way you've ever seen - (dancing clips are a VJ clich?, starwars clips are a VJ clich?, C3PO is a popular reference to childhood memories - he is doubly out of context as he's dancing on a talkshow in the sample but then recontextulized again by being put in the VJ's mix)

ultimatly i find the best use of samples is to take something that is a cultural reference and by the use for juxtaposition to make a statement about an issue eg
http://i1.tinypic.com/sdk20w.gif

[makemassair]

Get Paul D Miller's book Rhythm Science http://www.djspooky.com


superb book. read it cover to cover whilst sitting with my gf in a&e.

[Stuart]

I have never understood...

then I recommend a little education on the subject such that you can understand that the situation is apples and tractor mowers. In short, when a DJ plays your tune in a club there is a mechanism that attempts to funnel cash to you, the creator of the work, for the performance.

As for 'recontextualization' the consensus on another thread was that a little color tweaking and a background plate was adequate.

[andythetwig]

In short, when a DJ plays your tune in a club there is a mechanism that attempts to funnel cash to you, the creator of the work, for the performance.
I paid for all of the videos that I play live...? what's the difference?

[sleepytom]

this is going very off topic - please search for VPL / PRS / PPL and start a new thread if you wish to discuss copyright legality :horse:

[fALk]

Please no copyright discussion here, as I said in the first post there are hundreds of threads about copyright issues w/ samples on these board. I would like to know about general theory, examples and personal feelings BEYOND copyright issues. Why are people using sampling and remixing techniques in their VJ sets, what are their thoughts when they do so, what are the techniques (recontextualisation beeing one for example / are there others?). Thanks for sticking on topic.

[Stuart]

no worries

[disassembler]

to remix a film one would need access to all the rushes (and possibly the cast and crew to enable new scenes to be shot) - you would then reassemble the shots in a different order to change the narrative of the film. to simply remove the narrative and chop it up into a rythmical audio visual piece is not so much a remix more a cutup.

The aquateen hunger force isn't a film but it is very much a remix/cutup. Have you seen this?


http://www.i-am-bored.com/bored_link.cfm?link_id=15862

[visualove]

I heard a talk by Miller earlier in the month. He is working on a new book "Sound unbound" Some of this might be in the book, but here are some notes...

The 20th century is the century of mass production. (Of course it started earlier with the printing press) The 21st century wil be the century of mass customization.

One of the first artists to sample everyday objects and call it art was Duchamp. It was ridiculed at the time, now it's commonplace. In our lawyered up society would the commode maker have demanded design royalties for Duchamp's famous work? Probably! Good thing? No

Miller proposes "don't just press play, play with it!"

His most interesting comment - something along this line of reasoning: the value of samples is greatest when they trigger memories strongly. Who are we saying owns your memory?

Miller is also interested in the gift economy, sampling and giving away cultural material for free. My contribution is this: it is a fact that mass culture is being transformed into communities defined by communications with our friends and trusted network (like this board) to decide what is valued and not. So the tools of sampling - computers, cameras, mobphones, sound recorders and the tools of communications - IM, email, podcasting, link exchange, BBS's, blogs, work together to define communities.

Also mine: I think because we see media from a young age, people are comfortable with time based collage - snippets, and what I would call space based collage - multiple windows like the films Time Code (2000) and Group (2002). Maybe with ADD, we are selecting for the ability to comprehend multiple short streams of symultaneous narrative and against comprehension of long form narrative.

[michela]

falk writes ... I can not get the thought out of my mind that most people doing sampling and remixing are trying to take a shortcut to fame and richness without any labour.

I'm with the Dr on this one, it's just a tool not a key to any universal theory. Look forward to what comes next after the VJ mixer goes the way of the electric guitar and the turntables and becomes oh so mainstream. Next you'll be remixing on your phone, oh... sorry that was last year.

[mandymushroom]

here is another link in line with the idea of sleepy toms link 'the christmas cut up' using the idea of collage and recontextualsation. This has come from somebody who is regarded as filmmaker and not a vj...

http://www.channel4.com/film/reviews/film.jsp?id=127021

[littlecatalyst]

The aquateen hunger force isn't a film but it is very much a remix/cutup. Have you seen this?

Erik Estrada rocks! but seriously i love the can't-say-its-an-aesthetic whatever it is it certainly fits into the fold or remixing, appropriation, meaning liberation, and just having fun with media detrius


y'all are the bastard kids of eisenstine on speed buah ha ha ha ha

[Amukidi]

As for 'recontextualization' the consensus on another thread was that a little color tweaking and a background plate was adequate.
:jester:

[evomedia]

There is a definate difference between sampling or recontextualising content that is collected for a specific purpose, message or theme and sampling just to fill up the clip library and leaving everything raw and unedited. I suppose thats the same point as Dr.Esks point that the medium does not dictate the purpose or ethos.

If your were doing video based on war in iraq then using content of bush and blair (although common as muck) has an obvious reason behind it, but sampling lots of video because you simply want more clips is less cut and dry.

There are a great many VJ's that play anything and everything, sometimes because the skills are not yet fully developed to create their own content, but also because the VJ wants to try different styles before moving into a more specific look. Sometimes its an actual choice to keep footage eclectic and try to keep the content diverse and interesting.

Style and message simply develop over time, The other extreme is some self creators that get stuck in the first style they like. I've never been a fan of a single style that is never developed futher, I've seen many play a whole night of clips that look identical and contain no narrative with no development of an idea over time. Maybe its me but I have seen many VJ sets that simply bore me stupid, you watch a set for an hour using a very specific style that after 5 minutes had so little happening your just wishing for a change, then after an hour your so bored that you had switched off from the screens 20 minutes ago.

Just goes to show you can sample and amaze, or you can sample and make a mess, just the same as you can create you own video that looks like work from a production house or you could create something that looks ugly and unprofessional. Can't do anything about bad taste...

[michela]

My biggest difficulty with developing a specific "style" is that live mixing is my precious playspace. Which isn't to say I'm not trying to refine what I do but I'm not interested in sticking to any one technique that works. I use my sets to experiment and test footage/effects/mixing techniques ahead of locking them into films. The game for me is to balance entertainment value with self-indulgent noodling. That means that I'm pay less attention to my screens then to the "whites of their eyes"!

[ChikletTV]

here http://www.lessig.org/ you have some good books about remix culture.

[Hambone]

I'm not against the concept of collage, but I can't help thinking that if those rehashers with talent would spend more time learning, developing, and creating original art, we'd see some fantastic new material rather than regurgitation.

We'll be seeing samples of sample of samples soon... if not already...