Considering starting VJ agency

[evomedia]

Hi all, right after all the sampling debates I've decided to start a thread with some positivity rather than ethical debate.

I'm strongly considering starting an agency that offers some truely exceptional VJ's to the wider world. I've never had problems getting in work for our Control Freaks Crew, if fact I only look occassional as we don't have enough time to fulfill any more obligations.

So I'm considering starting a decent agency of Visual Talent, this is really an initial discussion to see what people think. We as a crew have always tried to encourage a open approach to VJing and would love to embrace a wider marketplace.

So lets open this up to some discussion, I'd love to know how many people here would like to be involved in an agency based business model? What would people like to see as a standard fee? Would people like the agency to handle rigging, contracts, equipment hire etc, like a complete service with VJ performers part of a team, or just as a standard booking agency where the work gets passed on?

I of course will be prepared to look at as many showreels as possible, but I'm really looking for a decent standard. I've been considering the benefits and can see that with the right selection of artists we have the opportunity to raise the bar for reputation as well as hopefully pushing up the money for performance and content creation.

Ideally I think as a community we should be thinking about pushing a more professional standpoint, DJ agencies demonstrate the power of a one stop shop for promoters with the knowledge that they are getting quality. By ensuring quality should raise our fees and hopefully feed down through the VJ community as a whole.

Ideally I would like to get all the top players involved, you know who you are...

[InsideUsAll]

getting established VJ's who have spent years building up their client list & reputation to work under an agent may be more difficult than you think. I would imagine you would have to have a very impressive client list of your own in order to tempt an artist to work with you & you would also have to have invested a year or two building relationships with the artists in question in order for them to trust u enough to share their reputation with you.

[evomedia]

Alright there.

Does it hurt to be on a agencies books as well though, not taking away your own client list just giving the option for more bookings maybe at a higher paid rate. To have an agency with decent VJ's means that those that approach the agency are ensured a certain quality which they will pay a premuim for.

Big name DJ's have there own reputation, doesn't mean they view getting there name on a agencies books a bad think, just means they don't have to spend all there time hunting for bookings. A single crew has to chase there own work, but if several all are available through an agency then people start to approach us rather than visa versa.

What harm does it do if we hold your name on our rosta? It costs you nothing, the only thing that could happen is you get some work you wouldn't have had otherwise. As long as the rosta of artists is the best quality then your reputation cannot do anything other than improve surely?

Incidentally, how many Vj's really have a reputation that means they get booked on their name alone? I can't help but think repuation is still quite isolated, no VJ is a household name, are there any superstar VJ's yet? I think anyone here who really believes they are too big to be involved with an agency as it's stealing there rep or just using them to boost is alittle short sighted as to the size of marketplace. There is bucket loads of work out there that really is too vast for single crews alone.

[Amukidi]

You have a PM!

[sleepytom]

are you talking about a non-exclusive agency?

most music / dj agencys are exclusive - ie people that are members of the agency cannot do their own bookings, all work is done through the agents. This means that people cannot do cheap gigs for their mates etc etc.

I'm very interested in the idea of a non-exclusive agency - what are your proposed rates / fee split?

[Anyone]

Hi Evo,

as you may know, I've got experience VJ agencies
I'd be happy to share some thoughts with you,
please email me if you think I can be of use.

but so far, Dave-inside has a point,
a big obstacle for you will be to resolve exclusivity issues with VJs.

oli@anyone.org.uk


.

[evomedia]

I'm indeed thinking of non exclusive, we all all friends here after all, hence the reason I was asking for sort of fees people would like to earn per gig, I imagine a fee to the agency as a booking fee, to cover sales, marketing and promotion of the artists on the books, but this would be clear to all artists and not a pisstake, after all I'm lookig to be on the rosta so I'm intersted in getting promoters to start paying fair prices for the skills, I would like the actual artists to get what they view as a decent payment, and I don't mean current standard pauper payments, but simular to decent DJ rates. I'm still working out running costs, tax etc to work out what the actual running cost would be on the agency side.

When we have worked with larger clients we have broken down payments into sections, equipement (including stuff like custom screen printed branded screens) performance (per hour) and content (custom content creation charged by 30 secs for branded etc with a few free clips)

I'm also interested in setting up some deals with some of my AV companies to get hire of kit with a markup, decent advanced schematics of rigs, branding elements, back end design.

I have no wish to start telling people they can't keep their own clients and regular gigs, I'm more interested in increasing the reputation of VJ's and working to get a mainstream outlet for us all.

[evomedia]

Didn't get your PM amukidi...

[DrEskaton]

not all agencies are exclusive in creative fields...

I have an agent for my Visual Effects post production freelance booking already. It's non exclusive, if she introduces me to a client she gets a cut, if I find the work myself she doesn't. It works well and both of the main agencies in this field, Soho Editors and Satusfaction work this way, non exclusive....

I'd sign up to a non exclusive vj agency no worries

[evomedia]

Thats the way I've always worked with design agencies too, its a much fairer model than DJ agencies. I reckon there is a good opportunity here, its not about making the agency money but raising the bar and making our industry alittle bit more appealing to those interested in using visuals but are worried about the quality of what they would recieve. It should also open doors to the events and staging markets that are closed to most here.

[Anyone]

In my experience, non-exclusive VJ agencies don't work.

.

[evomedia]

I've been looking for a new career outlet to be fair, design agencies after 10 years have started to get a little boring, I'm keen to do something I enjoy more and that's probably this, so I want a platform that at present doesn't exist. So I really am open to suggestions as to what people would like to see.

[holly]

I really am open to suggestions as to what people would like to see.
Jobs, would be my guess. That is what would make your agency worthwhile. Not just being another name on a (free) roster. A name on a list is what you get from festivals.

[InsideUsAll]

it all sounds well and good, especially in light of you preffering the non-exclusive arrangement.

Just don't underestimate the promoters, if they can deal direct with the VJ's and pay less, they will, they're often as skint as we are, so even if you've spent a few years building up a solid relationship with them, they're likely to always go with the cheapest option.

I respect your ideals for sure, and if you stick at it then what your talking about doing would be great, its just not an easy thing to do, when the industry works on the premise of 'who you know'.

If you were to setup an agency getting work internationally, then you may find it a bit easier, somewhat ironically. Cos the UK, London especially, is cut throat when it comes down to the promoters working on the same bread line we do.

The most frustrating part of it all is getting a promoter to actually value the difference between a crap VJ and a competent one. Its very rare I've found one who can tell the difference, unfortunately for us there is some logic in that though, from a promoters point of view, because only a very small percentage of the audience notice the difference between a crap VJ and a competent one too.

[evomedia]

Ok let put together some more detail and get back to everyone, I'm wont be working on a chicken and egg situation where I can't get work without artists and can't get artists without work. So I'll start talking to people who may be interested in using such an agency, get some promotional material together and start testing the water. As long as people here are not adversed to the idea then I'll go on the basis that VJ's will sign up if I fulfill my promises of quality work and payment. Hehe who would resist if I had the work sitting there.

[DrEskaton]

Just don't underestimate the promoters, if they can deal direct with the VJ's and pay less, they will,

the potential for this is opening up new markets.... if the agency could be a bridge between the vj world and post production/design/corporate events/music videos it could work.

eg the vj's do their own bookings in the traditional vj world and the agency helps them with stuff outside that market. From what I've seen most VJ's don't know where to start when it comes to these area's outside the club/festival area.

that way the non exclusive part could work....

but for it to work, there has to be a deal that if the agency introduces a vj to a new client (eg a new promoter design house etc) the VJ is forbidden to work direct with that client, it's the agencies client and is hands off.... likewise the VJ's existing clients are handoffs to the agency.. VJ's who won't respect this get dropped from the agency.

again that's the deal with vfx agents, everyone knows it and it works

[holly]

The most frustrating part of it all is getting a promoter to actually value the difference between a crap VJ and a competent one. Its very rare I've found one who can tell the difference, unfortunately for us there is some logic in that though, from a promoters point of view, because only a very small percentage of the audience notice the difference between a crap VJ and a competent one too.
Respectfully, this is an old arguement that needs a beating to whack out the flees and dust. Rather than blame 95% of the world for being too stupid to know the difference, logic begs the possibility that there simply isn't enough difference between "bad" and "good" VJs for 95% of the non-experts to tell them apart.

VJs are like wine. There are so many and you likely won't see the same one again another night out. It's not really worth remembering their names if your not a connoisseur.... VJs need to be more like beer where you can ask for your favorite everywhere you go!
:cheers:

[freakowen]

From what you're saying so far it sounds like a good plan - as long as the work is there.

Most of our gigs so far have been through word of mouth or people being at our gigs rather than from show reels - which I never feel do a performance justice (maybe I just need to get better at making them).

As others have mentioned the non-exclusivity section would be important. On the flip side, I've been in a situation before where I've had to turn gigs down, obviously at the moment first place to pass it onto is other VJ's I know - if there's an agency that I have a good working relationship with would I pass it on there? Possibly.

Goodl luck with it and I'd deffinately be intersted to see how this one progresses.

[Amukidi]

sent again

[vjpixylight]

wether you call it an 'agency' or a 'union' it does the same thing.
raising the quality of VJ work and therefore the fees that VJ's can charge.

the problem is, how do you keep the scabs from underbidding the agency for contracts.

Dave is right. We as VJ's need to form together a strong VJ representational group for our art. If we don't, it will stay a cut-throat economics, and promoters will widdle away any kind of collective bargining we(as an agency/union) might have..

[DrEskaton]

no they are not the same thing.

An agency represents vj's who choose to join and are found to be of high enough standard.

the strength of an agency is in it's reputation, a client who is not happy with them can always book elsewhere, if paying the higher fees for an agency vj is not good value for money the agency won't survive.

a union doesn't work this way, they want every vj to join and to set minimum fees across the board and to block vj's who don't want to join from work.

to me there is a big fundamental difference.

[evomedia]

an agency is different from a Union, an agency is designed to be selective therefore ensuring only a certain standard of performer is represented. That in turn gives clients the security they want that they won't be let down, which they will pay a premium for. A Union however represents everyone and fights for the individual workers rights within their own organisations.

the quality is what makes the difference, its the same in any industry, you could go to a design agency like Conran and pay a fortune, or go to a freelance designer at home and pay next to nothing, but your taking out the risk element by paying the premium. Also by going through an agency the client/promoter gets a professional service, the people I work with are AV professionals. So you don't get sheets slung up, they get their branding correctly displayed, liability insurance, decent kit and advice.

Also if the agency model works then those on the books will slowly become very well known throughout the industry, its all about building expectation and reputation. The DJ marketplace again is a good example, you can find a local DJ and get them to play cheap, or get a Big name agency DJ which provides perceived quality and value.

I can't stop them going cheap but from my experience, making clients feel they are getting an exclusive service has an amazing effect on getting them to part with cash.

[vjpixylight]

Unions in the UK are non existent, so you blokes don't really understand union concepts..but that okay.
A Agency in the white collar world does essentialy the same thing that a union does in the blue collar world.

A agency makes it's money by getting clients where a union shop gets its cash by securing better and bigger contracts.

By providing a more reliable pool of talent/workers, both succeed(or fail should they not be able to provide such).

In Colorado, union work is thus much more commercially oriented, where the non-union workers are much more the undeground ecomomy.
Same would happen if VJ's were organized in a similar manner. The organized VJ's would be doing big events, and would have to be more professional at what they do.
There of course would still be the underground VJ's doing what they do now.
An there seems to be a misconception by some that unions take anyone. That isn't true, and to join a union you have to take aplitude and compency test, along with proving work ability. (if you can't pass the required tests, you can choose to start an apprenticeship to learn what you need to know.
How would an agency be any different in weeding out the better quality VJ's? and don't say you can tell be a VJ 's showreel, cause if you do, I don't want to be in that kind of agency..

We actually disccused this type of VJ organizing at the AVit retreat(on tape somewhere?), and even got into talking about pushing for a sub section that would concern visuals in the lampy/stage workers unions..(Nice one Bryan!)

I think that many here still look at unions the way they existed 50 years ago...:nono:

[DrEskaton]

can you have multiple unions competing for the same skilled people? or does a union have an artificial monopoly on all workers in a certain trade in a certain region?

that's the difference to me...

In a healthy vj market there would be multiple high end vj agencies and they would compete to attract the most talented new vj's.

[evomedia]

The problem is Pixy that your model only work in countries that respect the Union as an organisation, here in the UK setting up as a union is entirely pointless, you have to just run it as a business. I can see the comparision but you simply can't organise a VJ wide organisation that has any power. You could in addition to an agengy create an industry standard, that VJ's have to comply to, but again, these things in the UK are volutary.

[vjpixylight]

All unions have business agents. These BA's go out and get the work. They are the agent representing a collective of worker. it really that simple.
There is no mother union monopoly, and each individual union has to make enuf money to pay it's own way.
the competition isn't between different unions for the work, but between the companies that get their labor thru the union.

An example of this in the VJ world would be that a parent VJ union would exist, that would have many branches. (perhapse a branch in each major city). the branches would be more like the agency that gets the talent, and provides it to the clients..
the clients would be guarenteed by the local agencies, that they would be getting the best talent available in there area, and there fore pay a premium to do this kind of bargining with the agency/local..
Therefore the local union/agency would be the business conduit, or middleman, and would live or die by it's reputation..
However where one local union/agency fails to do this in one market/city, the remaining locals in different cities and markets are unaffected.

[vjpixylight]

The problem is Pixy that your model only work in countries that respect the Union as an organisation, here in the UK setting up as a union is entirely pointless, you have to just run it as a business. I can see the comparision but you simply can't organise a VJ wide organisation that has any power. You could in addition to an agengy create an industry standard, that VJ's have to comply to, but again, these things in the UK are volutary.

all I'm saying mate is that agencies in the UK are doing what unions do here.
They are the go between for the talent and the contractors and get the right workers to the right people who need them.
The difference is that Agencies do it for a profit(for there owners/stock holders, where as unions take what profit is made, and put it back into securing more work and benifits for the members.(thru paying the BA's that nogoiate more work for the union workers..

So call it an agency if you must,(because of the situation you face in the UK)
but think globally, knowing that there are unions that do the same things elsewhere..:D

[evomedia]

The word UNION here is synominous with the word STRIKE, and I don't feel like educating the whole of the UK marketplace as to the difference in between UK unions and the American union model.

Pixy in the UK its a word, that reminds people of violence, government intervention and misery for many. The 80's miners strikes really don't provide people a warm feeling about joining Unions when our government essentially viewed the unions as the enemies of their perfect state.

Not that I disagree with what your suggesting, just that the UK has a depessing history when it comes to Unions. Now adays all we hear is this Union or that is going on strike and thats not something that clients would buy into.

Probably is the same meaning as agency here, maybe its just avoiding a name which would put people off.

[DrEskaton]

ipixy, it still sounds from your description that the union does have a geographic monopoly on a particular trade. eg there would be one and only one "official london vj union"

if my agent is doing a lousy job finding me work, I can quit from that agency and sign up to another one.

can I do that with the system you are suggesting?

[vjpixylight]

If there was a London Branch of a VJ union, that say wasn't getting you the work/pay you disired, then you quit the union..
That doesn't keep you from finding a union place to work while not being a member of that union..
That might be the main difference between unions here in the US, and those in the UK. We have a right to work clause within the law that states that you don't have to join a union to get work in that particular "unionized" trade or field. and even if a union contractor hire primarily union workers, that they have to still consider non union workers..(based on skills/work history ect)
Therefore union contrators compete with non-union contractors for work, but
unions hold the upper hand here, because they are guarenteed (in most cases) TO provide a better workforce than non union contractors(which can undercut the market with cheap labor/materials ect. much like the so-called bottom feeders do now with the UK VJ market..)

[joeproper]

In 98 i was forced to join IATSE ,they cover broadcast designers.I went for a steady freelance gig at a union shop. The way it works is THE COMPANY HIRES YOU not the union. Its a stipulation of your employment that you agree to join the union as per the contract they have with the union. Seriously the union is more concerned with new money dues than passing work to existing members.

[rolin]

Is this thread to discuss the difference between an agency and an union or
is it about founding an agency in contrast to leaving everyone alone!?

Imho an agency in the first place stands for quality management (not everbody can be signed) and
for information (about the signed artists and their work).

Nothing more - nothing less!

So the advantage for the promotors is,
that they know what they get and where.

And quality always causes an acceptance and
therefor realistic and fair prices.

Because it is a problem that too many VJs bring low quality for barefaced money (overpaid) or
take giveaway prices after working hours and days (undercharged).
Both ruins the market.

[unjulation]

there are similarities between a union and an agancey -

ie - there are serposed to be minimum levels of compantancey within both, they both want to premote what they represent and they both stand for the indervidual practioner within the feild

there are allso fundermental diferances between them -

such as againseys are a bisnes - and thus work within those peramitors - to self perpetuate themselves profitably

whare as a uniion is fundermentaly there to surport the individual/group (you'll have to work out that little double standerd your self) perpetuate its self no matter what the "finacial" implications are

personaly i'd wellcome more againsiys happaing coss its the one thing that i fel that they can do is sell the individual to a biz based media world

[vjpixylight]

In 98 i was forced to join IATSE ,they cover broadcast designers.I went for a steady freelance gig at a union shop. The way it works is THE COMPANY HIRES YOU not the union. Its a stipulation of your employment that you agree to join the union as per the contract they have with the union. Seriously the union is more concerned with new money dues than passing work to existing members.

Yep, local unions have to pay for themselves thru money dues..
You wouldn't expect to get work thru any kind of agency for nothing would you?
If they don't get enuf work for their mems, they wont survive as a local..

[joeproper]

Yes, but an agency has to be competitive in the market place to stay afloat.That means dropping and adding talent to the talent list dictated by whats needed in the market place.

[DrEskaton]

shouldn't this agencies versus unions be split into another thread?

evomedia has made clear that he is interested in starting an agency, not a union. so this discussion is irrelevant to the topic.

[joeproper]

No need to split the thread,I thought i was helping evomedia with real world examples, since people are not clear on the difference between agency/unions.. Theres really not much to explain.

[vjpixylight]

anyone here can start an agency...who can pull it all together to make it a worldwide entity...?
I mean being part of an UK talent agency will do little good for those not in the UK???

[DrEskaton]

pixy, so start a local agency or start a global union if that's what you want.... and start seperate threads about them

someone has expressed an interest in starting a uk based agency, there seems to be some interest in that... and that should be what this thread is about.

[vjpixylight]

pixy, so start a local agency or start a global union if that's what you want.... and start seperate threads about them

someone has expressed an interest in starting a uk based agency, there seems to be some interest in that... and that should be what this thread is about.

okay. let me know when U UK lot are ready to open it up...No more of that damn union speak here..:lick:

[vjpixylight]

btw,
There is an UK VJ agency here.. (http://www.microchunk.com/)

[videoswitchboard]

and another one here (http://www.beamproductions.co.uk)

[rolin]

Yes, but an agency has to be competitive in the market place to stay afloat.That means dropping and adding talent to the talent list dictated by whats needed in the market place.

I think the competitive ability of an agency comes via the quality (content) and
professionality (knowledge of the technology and behaviour on stage) of the VJs
and the quality of the appearence of the agency itself.

And especially because VJing is supposed to be an art form,
we Vjs should NOT give "the market" or in this case the party people only what they want!

I expect from an artist to be one step ahead of his audience and
show something NEW and most of all unexpected -
that's also a sign of quality.
Everything else is boring (imagine a movie u know every scene before it happens).

Another very important task of an agency is
to represent the VJ in front of the promoter,
especially when it's payday.
And also to support or counsel the VJs in legal questions.

[joeproper]

I think the competitive ability of an agency comes via the quality (content) and
professionality (knowledge of the technology and behaviour on stage) of the VJs
and the quality of the appearence of the agency itself.

And especially because VJing is supposed to be an art form,
we Vjs should NOT give "the market" or in this case the party people only what they want!

I expect from an artist to be one step ahead of his audience and
show something NEW and most of all unexpected -
that's also a sign of quality.
Everything else is boring (imagine a movie u know every scene before it happens).

Another very important task of an agency is
to represent the VJ in front of the promoter,
especially when it's payday.
And also to support or counsel the VJs in legal questions.



I agree with you, In that marketplace artistic merit is an asset.

[vjpixylight]

maybe it would be a good idea to get a list of the current VJ agencies in exisitence, see who/how/what they do, and build on that..

[rolin]

... In that marketplace artistic merit is an asset.

Yes, but I have written this (the art form thing) more out of a deep persuasion and
less from an economical point of view.
Money makes the world go round but
in first place I "judge" an artist more on his credibility and
the quality of his work than on his market value.

But you are totally right because the market value is
what's interesting for the promotor (customer No. 1) but
the visuals are what your audience sees (customer No.2, but more important in the end).

maybe it would be a good idea to get a list of the current VJ agencies in exisitence, see who/how/what they do, and build on that..

That's always the start of a serious project..
..professional research.

Great idea vjpixylight..

So here are those I've found:
+ Eye|Con (http://www.eye-con.tv/) - Austria
+ dalbin (http://www.dalbin.com/en/) - France
+ AudioVisualizers (http://www.audiovisualizers.com/agency.htm) - Canada
+ noiteglobal.com (http://www.noiteglobal.com/vhs.htm) - Portugal
+ visualberlin (http://www.visualberlin.org/modules/content/index.php?id=1) - Germany
+ plus2 (+2) (http://www.plus2.fr/) - France
+ and so on ..
+ http://www.bassmentality.com/] Bassmentality(looking for VJ's) (http://www.bassmentality.com/)
+ http://www.microchunk.com] Microchunk (http://www.microchunk.com)
+ http://www.beamproductions.co.uk/]Beam Productions (http://www.beamproductions.co.uk/)
By the way .. dalbin (http://www.dalbin.com/en/) is a very good example against the argument,
that VJa with good reputation or "a name" can work for a label/agency.

[joeproper]

Rolin you would be a pleasure to work with. I personally dont patronize companies that downplay the human variable which ive always found to exceed any companies vision which usually only includes itself. There are companies outhere which appreciate the workers which make up the company. You just have to cross paths with them somewhere along the way. So when i post from a certain standpoint[in this case corporate] its just the experience which i have allowed myself to have. Not to say i didnt have to stick my finger in the electrical socket to know the difference.

[vjpixylight]

added the previous 2 agencies mentioned, plus another to the one list;)

another thing to think about with starting a VJ agency, is what is the standard for gear that either the VJ, or the Agency provides.(and who does provide what)

It is important to feel the existing gaps that other VJ agencies miss. Does your agency provide competent uses of the latest gear available will be one question that many prospective clients might be asking..

Seems like a DJ/VJ agency will be needed at some point(IE cats that can do both). Maybe one of those gaps..

[rolin]

Rolin you would be a pleasure to work with. ... Not to say i didnt have to stick my finger in the electrical socket to know the difference.

Hey (@)joeproper..

Did I displease U!? (Or is it only my insufficiant english)

I didn't said U are wrong (quite the contrary) -
I just wanted to enhance or substantiate my position and arguments
from the preceding post..

:love3:

rolin

[joeproper]

Hey (@)joeproper..

Did I displease U!? (Or is it only my insufficiant english)

I didn't said U are wrong (quite the contrary) -
I just wanted to enhance or substantiate my position and arguments
from the preceding post..

:love3:

rolin


Not at all, same reasoning on my end.

[holly]

Rolin you would be a pleasure to work with.....
Hey (@)joeproper..Did I displease U!?

:shrug: How do people hear negative in the positive...?

[vjpixylight]

hum, I don't know, but I think is has something to do with that whole 'male bonding' thingy:crazyeyes

[videoswitchboard]

http://www.frenchcancan.tv/

[Stuart]

people who may be interested in using such an agency

I'll raise my hand though we are thousands of miles apart.

most VJ's don't know where to start when it comes to these area's outside the club/festival area.

I guess I'm the anamolous opposite. Wouldn't have clue how to get a VJ gig other than someone asking me at a currrent gig. OTOH I've been doing just fine in the pro media design world. feh

[evomedia]

another thing to think about with starting a VJ agency, is what is the standard for gear that either the VJ, or the Agency provides.(and who does provide what)

It is important to feel the existing gaps that other VJ agencies miss. Does your agency provide competent uses of the latest gear available will be one question that many prospective clients might be asking..


In regards to gear I'm using my contacts within the AV industry where I used to work, regarding major reductions in kit hire, which the plan to purchase kit as we can afford them. We are very keen to ensure a certain standard, and will make sure rigging screens etc are up to a professional standard, we are working on doing a deal for video wall controllers and already have a matrix switchers. Basically we will give access to some nice toys.

I also have a contract with a screenprinters which custom print branding onto back projection screens, so clients actually get branded installations.

Skip who is my businesss partner in this, has been a full time AV engineer/ installer for 10 years, and know everything plus more about AV, I havent met another VJ with even a 10th of his knowledge.

I will keep people informed as to my progress on this

[akira_k]

This is very interesting, I will be PMing you soon.

[Anyone]

We are very keen to ensure a certain standard, and will make sure rigging screens etc are up to a professional standard, we are working on doing a deal for video wall controllers and already have a matrix switchers. Basically we will give access to some nice toys.

This is all very interesting, but how much is this agency
planning to be a recruitment network
for operators of ready made light installations ?

A few questions remain unclear.

Will these VJs, booked via your networks and playing within your gigs:

-Be displaying more than 80% of their own content on the screens ?
-Have a say on the way the screens and projectors are layed out ?
(for artists like D-Fuse and Light Surgeons, screens and projector layout are part of their signature)
-Be mentionned on the event Flyer and Press?
-Be the main parties in the job contracts with the end client, Evomedia's role in this contract being as mediator?

if the answer to the above questions is yes,
then it falls within the definition of 'VJ agency'

if the answer is no, this project is more about
a recruitment network for video operators.

having said that, once this project is defined by what it does,
I welcome the project,
there is absolutely no shame in working as operator once in a while,
and either way, it could bring opportunities for many!

[evomedia]

Hi Anyone, you questions are all valid, I believe a good agency should bring out the talents of its performers and give help to their week points, if a vj has excellent content but doesn't have an aptitude to pushing the boudaries of installation then we can provide the help advice and even skills to improve there shows, if however your rigging skills are already of a high standard then we don't want to step on toes. We should be there to find work for those on the rosta, promote those of the books, and ensure output quality is the very best it can be.

To promote artists that means providing help with what can be improved, after all its the VJ's reputation as well as the agencies, so for happy artists in a happy agency you need to make sure the quality remains the desired standard.

in regards to mediation, if this is a non exclusive agency then VJ's are open to find their own work seperately, however some may choose to say you'll have to do it through the agency in the hope we can leverage more cash as we can demonstrate a defined fee system and a guarentee of service. We will also find our own clients through the agency and essentially contact artists on the rosta with work. We would obviously take a fee but the artists money should be higher than normal anyway, the only condition is the VJ's cannot recieve work through us then poach the clients by going direct, but thats fair anyway.

We will be heavily investing in equipment to improve artists performances, as the higher quality the output the better the reputation for both VJ and agency. A good business requires happy customers so we do not intend to just call around promoters and hope for work, but ensure we market ourselves on the strengths of performers and put the right Vj's into the right kind of work (that can be discussed with each VJ again I'm not into dictating)

The VJ world is missing that level of PR and marketing the agents provide.

[andythetwig]

I would love to work as part of a collective, I often end up vjing for 6+ hours, with the bare minimum of equipment and footage. I haven't the time or resources to make a 6 hour set great as I work a full time graphic design job, and it's very frustrating. Working as part of a team, being able to bounce ideas, remix and exchange footage and equipment with people, would be fantastic for me. Only having to vj for a couple of hours would allow me to improve the output no end.

Producers of certain types of music have the luxury of a common output for their work, for example the dubplate scene in d&b, grime and dubstep. breakcore artists turn up and plug a single lead into their soundcards. VJ's don't yet have this, the output format is as complex and unique as the production itself, which explains why many work in isolation, and do all the sourcing, marketing and PR themselves.

What I would be interested in is finding out what "standards" you would choose to regulate performers interfacing with your equipment. Would I be able to turn up with just my hard disk full of footage to plug into your resolume-based setup, for instance?

I would suggest that allowing the individual to have whatever setup they chose would be complex and expensive. If you could get over this obstacle, the agency system would be a great idea, and make the whole process of hiring a vj much simpler for clients.

[akira_k]

Evomedia, did you get my PM?

A question to leave on the thread: what if the client sees your roster, finds out the prices or whatever, and then contacts the artist directly? or if he says "if I contact X artist directly, it is cheaper for me. Why would I hire it through you?" ? What would be your answer ? What would be the advantage of booking the artist through theagency instead of on his own?

[vjpixylight]

I was wondering as well, if this agency will be providing A/V support for shows?
I think the A/V part is certainly an underdeveloped part of the process, and would welcome an establishment of an A/V roster!
(But alas, this would mean more initial investment with the A/V side taking cash to get gear and all.)

An agency that can provide A/V support to any event, is sure to bring in more high-end clientel, and
using gear such as the Sony AWS-G500 Anycast Station (http://videosystems.com/mag/video_sony_awsg_anycast/index.html) could really open up a whole new market.

How highend are you considering making this agency Evo?

[Amukidi]

And did you get my email? PMs seem to be working now, but I mailed you anyway...

[thomase]

I would be very interested in a non exclusive singning as well - but I'm based in the southwest of Germany... Any problems with that?

[evomedia]

Hi again all,
Firstly yes akira/Pixy/Amukudi got your PM's, akira a promoter could indeed see our rosta, find out direct prices and book direct, however, a promoter could do that with DJ's if they really wanted to. The point is a client has a point of contact, a choice of artists the could rotate, hopefully access to more impressive kits and higher quality setups. Also they is guarentees that the quality of performance is up to scratch without them having to try and learm what is or isn't a good value for money show. Can't stop ever promoter bypassing us, by then again how could an agency stop those tring to get something for next to nothing, I hope however that those artsist on the rosta also view its a good thing for them and if people try and bypass that they push them back at the agency so we can sort ouyt legals, be involved in project management and give access to some nice kit.

Pixy, I am always open to AV acts, don't see why that would change. We will be getting some DJ's involved for those events that people want a complete service.

Amukudi, thanks for the interest, early days yet, but I'm sure we'll have a chat about things as we progress.

International artists would be welcome, but we need an infrastructre to ensure they are well represented and not all work is UK based.

[Anyone]

Can't stop ever promoter bypassing us, by then again how could an agency stop those tring to get something for next to nothing, I hope however that those artsist on the rosta also view its a good thing for them and if people try and bypass that they push them back at the agency


the best way to resolve this is by having exclusive contracts with your artists.

Contract can be exclusive per region (all UK gigs for example)
per work type (live gigs but not DVD production)
per client (don't get booked directly by this list of people)
ect ect

more info here (oli@anyone.org.uk)

.

[PilotX]

been reading this thread with interest.. just a few thoughts from me.. an exclusive agency is not really of any interest to syzygy - we get mostly enough gigs ourselves, and almost certainly know the local birmingham nightclub market better than you.. however we would be interested in gigs elsewhere in the uk/abroad and potentially more corporate (ie: daytime & well paid) stuff.. but for us it would be a case of it not costing us and if it turns up a couple of decent gigs a year then we've gained some things.. we are very busy though (about 50% of our weekends are booked between now and the end of the year) so i'm not sure how many things would turn up at the right time that we wanted to do and paid well enough..
you're going to be seeing alot of demos though, and you might want to think about starting with people who's work you like - a small roster to start with to test the waters as it were..

[evomedia]

Well I must the response here has been very good, I need to get a business plan finalised and we will be using some our our venture capitalists contacts for some investment.

So PM me if you still have some questions...

[Rovastar]

I meant to comment before.

If you need assistance evomedia I am happy to help.

I would be happy doing none of the rigging and projectors and tech shit. Just want to play or even better still just create the custom content for a client. Maybe even for more specialist events.

The agencies can work well for providing VJs for events I think. A rotating array of VJs for events - punters get less bored and so do the VJs. Many more experinced VJs are less liekly to like a weekly residence as the material wil get tired, etc. So a variety of "quailty" can work well for both parties

[RayV]

A rotating array of VJs for events - punters get less bored and so do the VJs. Many more experinced VJs are less liekly to like a weekly residence as the material wil get tired, etc. So a variety of "quailty" can work well for both parties

good point imho

[rolin]

... So a variety of "quailty" can work well for both parties

I think you mean a variety of content,
because the quality should be always
on a high or on the same level
booking from an agency.

But the basic idea (of rotation) is really good,
because we all know,
that it's unrealistic to
be a resident and come up
with new content every week.

rolin

[Rovastar]

I think you mean a variety of content,
because the quality should be always
on a high or on the same level
booking from an agency.

But the basic idea (of rotation) is really good,
because we all know,
that it's unrealistic to
be a resident and come up
with new content every week.

rolin
Yes I meant a variety of "quality VJs/content". VJs/content that the agency has of a high standard or quality.

Rather than another random VJ playing those employed will be all up to a decent level (professional, content wise, etc) from that agency.

[Lucidhouse]

Great thread!

The more VJ / AV agencies around, the better for the whole scene. (one way to sort out the wheat from the chaff)

I recon it's realy important to be well connected with the whole Promoter, DJ , musician, club, festival circut. Or even to partner up with DJ agencies in some form...


.

[PilotX]

But the basic idea (of rotation) is really good,
because we all know,
that it's unrealistic to
be a resident and come up
with new content every week.


I think what could be great is the possibility of having say 8 weekly nights and 16 vjs so that each vj plays half the night every couple of months - but with a different vj each time... so everyone still has regular gigs but are playing in different places and with different people.. the club gets a rotation of 16 vjs but only has to deal with/pay one organisation.. if someone drops out they don't have to do anything.. no headaches, quality control done, technical end doesn't rest on the vj or club but the agency.. I think this is how an agency could get somewhere with promotors..

[InsideUsAll]

the idea of rotation of VJ's through one agency is a good one, when we've done residencies it only takes a couple of months before both the VJ and the audience are sick of the content.

this would be a good reason for a promoter to consider an agency instead of a VJ.

[Anyone]

You could also have 3 categories of VJs in your books:

- riggers
- performers
- content producers

obviously many will be proficient in more than one category,
but I doubt more than a minority will be proficient in all categories.

.

[akira_k]

Can't stop ever promoter bypassing us, by then again how could an agency stop those tring to get something for next to nothing
as Anyone said, in most DJs cases, they can't do this, as the DJs have signed an exclusivity contract with their agencies.

Anyone's points seem to be good. Limited Exclusivity might be a good choice !

[matthecat]

hi i think a vj agency is a great idea but to follow from the rotating the vj comments i feel that the only way to really raise the bar for this industry and move it forwards is to get more visualists playing shorter sets at events.

vjing will stay 'background' if the crowd continue to see the same thing for 8 hours or whatever?

because only a very small percentage of the audience notice the difference between a crap VJ and a competent one too.

i think this is because they have nothing to compare to, artists usually get public recognition by being compared to each other and this doesnt happen when one crew plays all night, effectively in isolation... one dj all night would be dull and thats how you know who's a good dj 'cos they play better or worse then the previous dj, usually within the same style of music.

'warm up' vj > main vj act > late vj set

= more competition between vjs

= more interesting

= more money (potentially)

maybe

:moon:

[fALk]

'warm up' vj > main vj act > late vj set

= more competition between vjs

= more interesting

= more money (potentially)

maybe

:moon:

all these ideas are interesting indeed but has anyone ever spoken to a promoter about this... at least around here promoters think of ways to spend less money on a party even if it affects quality... the lower the better... and introducing two more vjs on top of the one that is already to much in their sense (when you could simply plop in a dvd you know) is just not going to happen in todays downward spiraling bussiness world... I am telling promoters that I decide when I stop actively doing something and that the longest I play is until 4-6 o clock (depending on the event)... after that its dark screen or a slow "photo/logo/slideshow" that visually contrasts from the live set. They do understand that after 4-5 hours of hardcore rocking the computers there won?t be any "quality" output anymore but each and every one - even in very very big events - have refused to book more vjs - even for only 100 euros... there are some exceptions - 4youreyes have pulled it off for the urban artsform - but generelly promoters do not want to spend a single more dime on another artist that atop his wage also drinks and brings in friends for free... Good running shows tell you "everything is working great - no need to change things" bad running shows tell you "we have to cut costs"... If someone finds a fool proof answer to those claims then I would be most delighted to hear that...

As for the topic of "VJ Agencies"... I see Agencies as "proof of quality". First you have to establish that brand that means "quality" then you have to market that brand to promoters - who a lot have already ties to their "home vjs". The problem is that the promoters have the upper hand as long as there is no legal agency pushing up the prices and down the playtimes so from a promoters standpoint I would fully reject the agency in the middle especially as there are so many vjs running wild playing for free... its a tough situation and I would like to believe that it will change but around here it surely doesn?t seem to change in the right direction..... ("more then one vj? oh no we can put your feed on the second floor with different music too - that costs us only a long cable" - original comment from a promoter of a big 2000 people holding recent show - i did pursue him to get another vj after all - only to see my income slashed by 300 euro after the negotiation - so still did make enough money to warrent the show for me but its a good illustration on how the griddy looks down there)

[PilotX]

yep think those are good comments matt.. not sure about the financial possibilities of more than a couple of vjs for most nights though.. but certainly having different vjs play will bring a quality to events that is lacking.. not just that people can see the different visuals but also that vjs would see more of each others stuff.. it's easy to think you're making nice visuals until you get to see some of the visuals other people are doing .. gives both inspiration and motivation..

[akira_k]

i feel that the only way to really raise the bar for this industry and move it forwards is to get more visualists playing shorter sets at events.
You are right, and to a certain degree, we achieved this here in many big events, and so far, they have been the events that worked THE BEST visuals-wise. Everyone noticed the difference and enjoyed the variety. We're trying to push this format more and more, it's difficult, but I have the luck of working with one open-minded production team that is keen to do moves like this, and they realize the advantages this sort of approach gives to their festivals and shows.

as an agency, you should be able to build a line-up of VJs according to the situation. Both loigistically and resources wise (planning it out and having the VJs to fill those lineups)

[USE]

has this idea gotten anywhere yet?

I need an agency, and if there isn't one for UK, i may set it up myself....

[Nick Gunn]

I'm very interested in joining an agency as well. I don't seem to have the time to research club nights/events, apply and promote myself to the extent I would like and feel an agency would help a lot.....

[psychomonkey]

Hi i have toy'd with these ideas in the past couple of months, as i am already working for a collective of artists who support each other to get gigs, but also do there own thing on the side.

A collective hub of Vj's were you could go to request support for your event, and then farm out on a rota to insure those who can make dates and times take the gig on and if they are unavaiable, these can then be passed down the list.

I to think that having more than one vj for an event helps spice up the night, some of my favourite gigs have been when there is more than just me there indulging the crowd and myself visually.

It ups your game and helps you reconnect with others also allows you to get to the bar. :D

So if anyone fancies a collective rather than an agency i think i have a great name for the collective and passion to go for it.

Laters

[vjpixylight]

There are collectives like you decribe.
Inside Us All and Ne1co come to mind..

[sleepytom]

is NE1 a collective? Its just Oli isn't it?

Agency can only work if it is exclusive - that is why DJ agencies work. if you want to book and artist on whatever agency then you pay the fees and you get them, you can't go direct and avoid the agency fee. Nobody seems willing to go down that route for VJs so we won't see any agents any time soon.

[asterix]

I'm pretty sure NE1co accounts for a collective of vj's - vj anyone (ollie) is his own entity still ;)

But booking agencies don't actually all work like that here at least. The big ones maybe but there are plenty here who are more like talent scouts for their folio of customers.

Rather than them representing you - they represent their clients (probably not quite what you're after).
These are still good people to network with. They are commission based and I'm sure they'll be interested in 15% of your booking fee (lol!! if you get paid much that is!!).

I think there is opportunity for someone with exceptional organisational and networking skills to open an agency in any major city.

[SilentEclipse]

I think its a fine job if you enjoy dealing with dodgy club promoters..

[SteveG]

I think its a fine job if you enjoy dealing with dodgy club promoters..

Don't get on to me when I poke them with a stick then :D

[devonmiles]

I am signed with a djs agency and promoters actually pay the agency fee to book me.

[USE]

I am signed with a djs agency and promoters actually pay the agency fee to book me.

which one?

i'm just brutally shite at negotiating, basically. i reckon even minus the agency fees i can pull more through them. i'm juts far too nice. i have the experience, i just need some one fronting me. on top of all that, it's a long mission keeping a business network going, and without syzergy my year looks bleak, Vj wise.

[Creon]

we get mostly enough gigs ourselves, and almost certainly know the local birmingham nightclub market better than you.. however we would be interested in gigs elsewhere in the uk/abroad and potentially more corporate (ie: daytime & well paid) stuff..

Hypothetically, could you not run the B'ham branch of a national agency...? Think VJ Pixylight mentioned this earlier in the thread, about potentially franchising the agency brand, so long as it holds true to the quality of the original concept. In terms of jobs, it could work well for you guys in a rotation aspect, so that B'ham VJ's wouldn't be contending with outside sources. Kind of sharing in the name of variety & wider exposure which should be good for business of the events as a whole.