Stealing our showreel

[meek]

I can hardly find words to describe how disapointed and pissed off I am to find that another VJ has stolen half of our Showreel and called it there own.
This is totally shameless, and has really hacked us off. :(

Our showreel is here:

http://www.meek.tv/site/media/meek_showreel_05.html

The Vj who has stolen our work has his showreel here:

http://www.mikkel.org/showreel.mov

About half way through he starts using our footage, you can see our little "m" logo in the corner.

Anyone know how we should deal with this ?
Ive already emailed the guy asking him to remove it.


James // Meek VJ Crew

http://www.meek.tv

[vjpixylight]

I think that is the best course of action mate..

[sleepytom]

try phoning him up

INFO REMOVED COZ HE'S COME AND SAID SORRY... IF YOU REALLY WANT TO PHONE HIM YOU HAVE TO DO YOUR OWN WHOIS SEARCH NOW

its really cheeky imho and is made worse by the fact that he has a "homemade" title right before he shows a demo clip from topherZ spin dvd and then goes right in to your demo reel.

I would also post about this on www.vjcentral.it maybe some italians will know who he is.

[WordVirus23]

yeah... but they mixed it with other stolen content... doesn't that make it original? LOL... or does that just make multiple counts of thievery? I'm pretty sure I saw a demo clip from SPIN and the sidewalk part sure looked like AddictiveTV stuff... I'm sure you can find some more... it's like where's waldo, only w/ copyright infringement

..james...

PS. if you're going to steal stuff... at least take the watermark and obvious parts out

[sleepytom]

see if i saw it mixed live in a club then i would not be too bothered - its like DJing with video by playing other peoples released clips. But editing it as your showreel is beyond cheeky.

[KillingFrenzy]

I'd say asking/recquiring that it be taken down is the first step.
Posting here is a pretty good public flogging, so that should take care of the punishment.

If they don't take it down, or blatantly refuse, the most immediate action would be talking to their ISP. It shouldn't take that.

I wouldn't be offended if somebody posted a mix including some of my material if they said "here's an example of what I do, a typical show with live visuals." and then had a long mix posted. Or "here's my mix from that amazing set last tuesday". But "Showreel" implies it is being used as a selling tool, and "homegrown" is just a lie.

[evomedia]

Burn the heretic...burn him...burn him

[oxygen]

Hi,
I understand you are pissed off, for someone stealing your stuff.
but its not all bad.:...
See how your logo is well represented in there. Its almost free promotion!
:rolleyes: no?..

[matthecat]

true, if u can get over your anger (which is totally understandable) its about as flattering as u can get... id still be pissed off tho

:pirate:

[mondo]

vjing others vjs stuff in performance is ok in my book

passing it off as own work on a showreel in not on - unless with prior permission.

[cat]

Thought this was recontextualisation, that you should feel honoured that he should consider using your stuff, or maybe even thank him? (see pissed off artist thread)
I'd be miffed, though and ask him or his isp to remove the material forthwith. Its one thing doing a mix with some samples and another using them as your showreel with Homemade at the start.
But like lucid, his and your reels will now be viewed by more people than ever (see thanks box, apparently)
Notice the dandelion clips, are they the free give away with resolume by any chance?

[meek2]

We shall see how he feels about it when i start vjing the footage i filmed of his momma last night.
Come over here and armwrestle us for the right to use our shit, you will lose

damn cheek

[seex]

Thought this was recontextualisation

It is not, it means taking something out of the original context, the clips used were meant to be used in a club, wich makes them great for that and thats ok, its what dj-s do, select. But posting this as ones showreel is lame not ok at all.

Least he culd do is credit the authors, after asking for permission.

[MoRpH]

Man thats LAME although atleast his clip loads @ a decent speed, whats yours hosted on a DIAL-UP connection?!?

[vjpixylight]

Hey Meek,
I'm getting pretty strong in my upper arms these days(from brute force work), and I think I could arm wrestle you and have a damn good chance of winning;)
but that means I have to jump a jeyt over there right?

[seex]

Lets see what the italian vj community has to say about this.

http://vjing.it/forum/viewtopic.php?t=921

[sakamoto]

it's definitely lame and I fell kind of ashamed about it...

[vjpixylight]

lame...? yea.
cheeky bastard...? looking that way.
how to settle it the quickest way...?
get in touch and appeal to him to take it down.

After that it becomes a bureaucratic nitemare, and problably will never get settled.
does all this Sux..? yea
does life go on one way or another...lets hope so;)

[bryandod]

That is so weak. I wonder if anybody has asked him why your logo is on his showreel? This VJ must not have any content of their own. How long have they been VJing? Weird. :Smoking: :Smoking: :Smoking:

[Stuart]

that blows

[karl]

when shit like that happend in the old days we used to make a "anti-demo" against the offenders, with long text about how they sucked in particular.

[rolin]

It's one thing (discussion) to take (found) footage and rework it,
but it's imho inacceptable to take the finished VJ-work from someone and
sell it as your own.

Especially when the result is just some layered, lactic crap.

A showreel is nothing else - selling a product.

Well snitched is (usually) better than badly selfmade..
..but in this case it was a grasp into the toilet.

:nod:

rolin

p.s. it's so sad, because after looking at their homepage (mikkel) it seems,
that they really have a unique style..!?

[Amukidi]

p.s. it's so sad, because after looking at their homepage (mikkel) it seems,
that they really have a unique style..!?

Huh? Explain please!

[rolin]

Huh? Explain please!

What I mean is this handdrawn images,
the background of the page and the paintings
which I think would be quite an interesting thing to
implement in visuals.

But instead they took something else..
..from somewhere else.

:banghead:

rolin

p.s. maybe unique is not totaly the right word (my english ;) ),
but now U might know what I mean..

[devonmiles]

lets see if I can get away if I use someone elses passport and claim it to be "recontextualisation"...

meeks showreel is a composited and postproduced work and not a bunch of clips ready to download.
the dvds from dandelion with the clip in question are intentionaly made for vjs to mix, recontextualise, alternate to produce live performances and showreels. therefore you have to pay 14 bucks for it.
whereever you download vj content, the owner of the websites states that this material can be used by everyone regarding the TOC, for free or by paying a fee.
theres no such statement on the meek website. this makes the the use of their content blatant theft.

the question is: do they use this content in their live shows too? that should look quite shit, since the resolution of the original reel already is just average.
the whole website itself is in question, because you cant differentiate which of the design elements are "recontextualised".

have someone asked mikkel what he thought about using meeks clips for selfpromotion? would be interesting if he responds.

[vjpixylight]

why don't we all simply email mikkel individually, stating that this is indeed objectionable ethos and, we as VJ's are asking that he(mikkel) takes responsibility to make it right(I guess in this case, Taking it off the net, and maybe an apology..

A few dozen friendly little reminders that we do have ethos;)

[vjTranceKoder]

We just finished our demo reel. It has footage from other VJs in it...wonder if I'm cheeky? If you are well versed in video and cinema you should be able to pick up pretty easily on my "sampling". Is it recontextualization??
http://myspace.com/ioaudiovisual
(:-offtopic I don't know how to do pop-up movies on mysapce, can someone help me with this? They alll load at once)
Even the music includes samples from major films...can you find them?
Please respond to this thread titles "Stealing or Recontextulization": http://www.vjforums.com/showthread.php?p=118912#post118912

PS Props to bryandod for his excellent CO timelapse footage and lake george stuff. Also big ups to all the VJs out there hooking us up with free to mix flash elements!:hippy:

[rolin]

Using another VJs work is NOT recontextualization,
it's just boring, unimaginatively and weak..
..oh I have forgotten - most important it would be unsatisfyingly (for me personally)!

Copy, paste..

Where's the point!?

There seem to be a few who don't want to realize,
that VJing is (more than DJing) hard work BEFORE
you get onto the stage and get the flowers!!

But let's face it..
..those who copy and paste will NEVER push the boundaries.
They will always be a step behind!

rolin

[vjpixylight]

I see those I/O reels you have linked, as certainly recontextualized and with new meaning, and they rock my friend! Is that some footage of the sand dunes, or CG?
Besides the timelapse of the solar array, I didn't recognize any of the other media.:confused:

[vjTranceKoder]

pixy, the Mystic video: samples include bryandods lake george footage (sand and grass in wind) not CG, just MIDI controlled. Other samples include levlhed's vector dancer, bryandods smoke footage, and a couple of movies I made from images taken off the internet...everything else is original ie animated logo, dragonfly, timelapse clouds. All these clips are MIDI controlled.
Alameda has many more samples but I want to see how many can see them...in the other thread if anyone replies there...
The Tree of Life mix is all orginal AV except for some water ripple footage shot by, once angain, the amazing mr.bryandod from (big ups to) integrated visions. I just mixed it with the feedback, did some matting...

Thanks for all the kind words bro! We are playing http://wakarusa.com this year, you want to come out?? LTJ is headlining, 4 days non-stop party...hippys and ravers unite!

QUOTE rolan: "Using another VJs work is NOT recontextualization,
it's just boring, unimaginatively and weak..: "
Hey rolin, did you even watch my videos? Or were those comments not aimed at me? I saw your work, nice and original...i mean kind of..what IS original?? I can see where you may have ripped off some of those ideas. I've seen the effect before (the "original" building remix) Please post your reply in the other thread as this is clearly not about stealing demo reel material but is about what constitutes "Original"

:-offtopic and proud of it...
can anyone tell me who originally said this:
"Good artists create, great artists steal."
:horse:

[rolin]

Picasso..
..and it was originally: "Good artists borrow. Great artists steal."

..but if you think that this should mean:
"Just take other ones stuff and
pretend it to be your own"
you are wrong!

This just fits into:
"why make something better, when it's already the best?"
And that's right..
..but it also means
to take the good parts out of something and
fit it into something BIGGER AND BETTER.

Naming the originators is ok,
but it will be them who get the recognition.

Stealing alone just does NOT make a great artist imho..
..you can always wreck it, after stealing.

And as I wrote before..
..by stealing or borrowing you'll
never set standards or raise the bar.

You'll always hobble behind
those you steal from.

rolin


@vjTranceKoder: I really like the "Tree of Life" feedback movie and I think it doesn't need that water ripples blended over,
cause it's beautiful by standing alone..

[vjTranceKoder]

thanks for the quote correction, rolin!
I love the FB without water too, but many like it the other way...a VJ thing IMO...who knows...
I agree with everything you said...BIGGER and BETTER is right...Some of the most famous AV acts Ive seen use pop-media which is certainly stolen, but recontexulized for a different message and bigger and better by far.
I really dont mean to start any flaming, but sincerely want to know what is "legit" when it comes to sampling for commercial puposes..again I am :horse:
but this issue is paramount to the future of VJ releases etc. I hear music all the time that includes samples from movies...does that mean they are not original tracks? Either way I will as a general rule try and keep all my work 100% original if it is for mass distrobution. Otherwise...Please reply here: http://www.vjforums.com/showthread.php?t=15180

BTW just for the record I think that video Mikkel put up is shit. I mean that is blantant disregard for both the artists involved and the people he is trying to sell. Shameful!

[Aalto]

meek.... mikkel... he almost stole your name too, mate ;)
Sad story... the only solution is to make 70x50 pix showreels, it won't be possible for anyone to use the vid ;)

[many2]

can anyone tell me who originally said this:
"Good artists create, great artists steal."

Picasso I believe

[meek]

Hi everyone,

thanks for the support on this,
hes removed the offending footage now!!

:roll:

[vjpixylight]

good too hear mate!

[Lucidhouse]

good to hear you've sorted it out... Meek

yeah, the bulk of "his show reel" was yours, he also had quite a few of topherZ stuff from spin series and the pavement footage, also a snipet of lucidhouse stuff in the beginning.

Personally I see it in a positive light when other VJ footage is remixed, better this then more CNN news reels, I recon it's a sight that the scene is moving into another phase... obviously this case was not really one of them...I don't think this guy has ever done anything remotely creative before...he's just jumping on the bandwagon by taking the shortest root.

For me this raises the question again on how Vj's/producers can benefit by having their stuff remixed? Maybe having a standardised logo [size position] on the top right hand of screen could be the easiest solution... It's a piss to implement and Vj's will get the credit when their stuff is used. After all how many CNN, MTV, logos have we seen in gigs? No one seems to mind about these?


ps: dig your stuff Meek!


.

[mikkelgarro]

Yep here I am. Not necessary to phone to italy!

I'm sorry by the facts. Really. Like I explained to james there wasn't anykind of profit or personal advantage involved. That wasn't the purpose.
It was a showreel of vjing not motion grafics. It was a fault and I've removed the files.
I'll let you know when I upload a new reel.

11-13 homeworkfestival will host two panel discussion right about the VJ and it's fuction...

sorry again

mikkel

[vjpixylight]

first off, welcome to the forums!
It is good that you have made things right, and, came into the forums here to make your apologies known! respect for that!(it had to be difficult to read the blags we all have stated about this incident here.)

I really thought that the best way to solve this was doing what Meek did, and contacting you proved the best way to sort this out..

I will be looking forward to seeing your all-new showreel when you get it done! :cheers:

[mikkelgarro]

Here I'm.

There's no reason to phone me. I'm not hiding!

Italian vjs sucks! Well that's easy and too quick to say.

It wasn't my purpose to steal anything neither to earn money or get some personal advantage of it.

I also invited Meek collective to the festival in wich I'm coordinating the video section. I have in no times public anything of meek's work.

I sorry about what happen, I have removed the material and specified that it was a reel of vjing and not of motion grafics. Anyway I'm feel guilty and sorry cause I didn't wanted to steal others work also if it might seem otherwise.

Once again sorry for what happen.

I should have informed you. You should be proud of yourself cause other people watch, download, and use your materials.

Take a look at www.flxer.net if you don't already know these guys.

mikkel :not worth

[mikkelgarro]

Sorry for the double reply.
I'm really confused in this period.
:help:
Yes you can't put hollywood films and indipendent videos on the same stage, theres a quality difference.

But it's also thrue that in many circumstages a VJ can't be 100% original. I think it's mainly the same question with dj vs djproducer.

[seex]

Hi Mikkel Garro and welcome to the forums, indeed a positive gesure to come and join the discussion.

Buying or stealing, one is still using work done by otheres, buying the rights to use doesent make one more creative or original. To the argument that samplers are less talented.

to the issue of sampling: sampling is one of the expressive potentials of visuals. The imediacy with wich the "NEWS" hit the club screen is mostley due to new tehnolgy avalable, in a matter of hours a news line is a part of a vj-s set. It is obvious that the vj here is taking risks, but how else wuld this get done. Im not saying that it is impossible, but its ridiculus. Shuld a vj have a network of camera crews folowing polititians to get the original clip? How can one conceve the concept that puts a news network in the same pocket with a vj? Vj-s running their own brodcast vans is far from reality.

Tha answer that Hambone seems to offer is jes, if its not your original work than dont use it. From a legal point of view this is right, but the qestion remais. Do we accept the law as the most perfect set of rules or do we doubt them. Of course this possition can be viewed as a luxury, "what if one doubts the laws concerning murder and rape". One suld remain realistic, it is not all the laws that are imperfect.

[vjpixylight]

here... (http://www.vjforums.com/showthread.php?t=15227)

[bryandod]

Mikkel,
Its good to have you on the forum. Thank you for resolving this issue in a respectful way. I look foward to seeing your new reel when it is up.:nod:

Bryan:Smoking:

[6071842]

not good man! i'd be pissed like!