is laptop a dirty word?

[wellREDman]

this question seems to be the unwritten dispute in a number of contentious threads of late so i thought maybe id just come out and state some of the things i feel about the laptop as an object and the laptop as a symbol:

on the one hand it is an object that cannot yet really play with the big boys kit in terms of resolution and responsiveness (at the same time) although it is getting close, and the time is rapidly approaching when i will see a single lappie kicking out 2 or three layers of 25 fps Pal uncompressed clips mixed with two or 3 live inputs and several layers of fx, and have to have to eat my words.(and buy a lappie)

on the other it is a symbol, to the old guard it is the weapon of choice of the new wave of young turks threatening to engulf the vj marketplace .

i personally feel that i straddle both camps although i am old school in that i use a large rig, multiple cameras, decks mixers and computers, i am also fairly new to this game, and have learnt most of what i know through vjc / eyecandy / audiovisualisers, i was just lucky enough to have broadcast kit to play with whilst everyone else was trying to nurse something nice out of vjamm one at 320x 240. as such i can empathise with those who are trying to get their art on screens, by any means neccessary.yet at the same time i am faced by the finacial burden of ppl being able to do a show that in the eyes of the promoters is as "good enough" for half the money because they have no overheads i therfore am gonna hold on to my big boxes of stuff and try and stay afloat using only my resolution until i can do an equivalent show on an itty bitty teeny weeny fold-up-in-your-lap machinee .

i think the nearest metaphor for the laptop question is the way the electric guitar was both loved and loathed by two schools of guitarist in the late fifties early sixties , to some it was a new and exciting way forward, to others it was a death knell to a world they understood (except its more like loads of kids running around with mr fender or mr gibsons early not quite so nice on the ear prototypes )

when i started this game to be able to get my art on a screen i had to put up that screen myself i can now see a future where i can walk into a gig with my rig in a record bag and my set on a disc, and its a future i want to work towards,

i see the laptop as a tool not quite yet come of age, yet to be watched and podered, and grasped firmly and used when the time is right, what do you think?


p.s. these words in no way represent the calm sober thoughts of VJ wellREDman but are merely the vague wandering thoughts of a too full of christmas spirit paul :)

[MoRpH]

Hmmm I don't think so, I mean I have loads of other kit besides Laptops, but I think bang for buck wise your going to get the best value for a laptop with some good software. I scale the amount of gear I use in accordance with the size of the show i'm doing, there for some just require a laptop (200 ppl down the local on a sat arvo) some require far more.

I've said my piece on the resolution debate (http://www.vjforums.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=11142#post11142) and I think that laptops will be catching up VERY soon, especially as @ the same time as getting better resolution they are working on FX, etc that NO MIXER has access too, which is where I see the real killer coming from. They (computers/PC/laptop/mac/whatever) are and should be currently PART of any VJs kit, as their power and abilites increase so will our ability to use them for more aspects of a performance.

[robotfunk]

What benifit will the scene gain by Lappy users peddling the limited version of what a VJ is about?

Limited? In what way is a using a laptop limited? I'll go as far as saying a laptop is the single most versatile tool a VJ can use.

1 of your smaller units can be configured to

- serve as a high quality VCR or DVD player
- serve as a 2x fullscreen Video Player
- make video clips sync to the music (what hardware can do this?)
- have 100s of realtime effects not possible on dedicated hardware
- be used as a video mixer replacement (mine had s-video and firewire in)

as for hands-on tactile control, get a MIDI knob/fader box and some good VJ software and show me what hardware you can have this much control with.
Yes I also take a mixer and a small cam to gigs (and a handfull of tapes) but I would 100x rather do a gig without the mixer or the cam than without the lappy. Losing mine in a gravity incident made me only too aware of this.

I don't know how you get the notion that a laptop is a limiting factor at vj gigs. I'd be bored stiff without the freedom it offers.
Using just tapes, cams and a mixer, that is IMO much more limiting. Not saying its bad but your options are truly limited.

Neither do I see how using a laptop should limit your resolution. As Morph said, they can deliver much higher resolutions than say a VCR and resolution/speed are only sacrificed if the number of realtime effects and layers used call for it.

[MoRpH]

***** stop having a spaz mate and drop the condecending (educate me) tone, its not a TOTAL mixer replacement (yet), as for all those sources, cams are dependent on the quality of the output (ie 4 source/security monitor and crunch box) as for the other sources...... who needs them when you have couple of laptops (random access, more control, more/better FX).

Mate I can see the validity of your point, that they are not a total solution, but with the way they are going (moore's law) with the right inputs they could be soon (inspite of software issues). @ the momment they (computers) are still an essential party of a live rig and can even pull some lower end shows off as the ONLY kit (if your software is up for it).

[robotfunk]

I never said a laptop is a good replacement for your entire gig.
If you are just gonna sum up your gear and expect that from 1 lappy you seem more stubborn than realistic.

Obviously a laptop is not the most sensible replacement for a mixer. It can work wonders as a submixer though and what I meant is that there is not another part of gear that can do this much.

With some laptops having 2 inputs, some good software and a large enough clip library
a laptop can be a world of its own and this world can be much more interactive than other hardware if you use the right controllers.

In this sense a laptop can be enough for an interesting performance not as a direct replacement for your truckload of gear.

[holly]

I quoted a price once for a very low-end gig and the promoter asked if I could do it cheaper with a laptop.... He also asked if I could provide him with a mixed tape for only slightly cheaper than what he wanted to pay for the laptop. His impression was that a laptop was so easy it was only worth slightly more than a tape, so it goes beyond just our tech-head, rez and fps comparisons.

What astounds me is that no one ever seems to equate the price of a quality laptop to the price of other video gear that does the same thing or similar. A laptop is a very expensive vcr! The better the laptop, the better the framerate, the higher the cost. For a low-end gig I want the least valuable equipment and the least liability if something gets broken:

One laptop + scan-converter aprox value $2700
two DVD players + cheap-ass mixer aprox value $800

How could I charge less $ by using a laptop?! Unless I'm running audio-visualizers all night I'll have much better rez and frame rates from DVD. And I can't tell you how many times I've been using audio-reactive effects and people don't even notice it's going with the music! They get like 30% of what you are doing up there anyway, so why bust my bank account to deliver bleeding edge technology? I love computer visuals and live effects, but I'll keep the computers in the studio where they belong, and carry light-weight, inexpensive disc players to the gig. An important or better paying gig would bring in a few partners of course and I'd go for all the bells and whistles I could get for the money, but there's less chance something will happen to equipment with a partner around.... Opinions could change at any minute of course.

HOLLY

[elbows]

Depends on yer style dunnit? I mean a laptop is NOT an expensive VCR, and it CAN play in just as high as res & framerate as a DVD player, in fact it could do higher except mixers are a bit of a resolution bottleneck at the moment so whats the point.

For me control is the key. If my style involved simply triggering different video clips then for sure some VCR's and DVD players would do. Thats fair enough, I guess in that style 95% of the effort goes into creating the content in the first place, as opposed to controlling it in a million different ways and putting at least 50% of the effort into the live performing side of things. I cannot compare styles in the sense that one is better than the other any more than I can compare musical genres - its all personal taste and everyone has my respect for what they do as long as they arent just totally lazy egonuttahs.

So I dont really see how anyone can be right or wrong about this, its simply personal preference. It became clear long ago that there are quite a lot of quite different things that we are all calling VJing, and so we end up with these arguments about what kit is suitable etc etc.

I mean who is best to judge what kit is best for us than ourselves? For sure the things that ***** does would not be best achieved with a laptop, and yeah why use a laptop for tasks which can be handled by cheaper simpler more robust players if all you need to do is play clips?

When I think about it I think that laptop has simply become a way for some to describe the "lazy" winamp visual plugin type style of VJing which causes some to get upset because of the potential for such people to undercut Vj's who are doing something very different, and all because the promoters dont know enough to tell the difference when booking. Well, thats not the humble laptops fault really is it.

I dont use a laptop myself simply because they arent upgradeable enough for my nerdy needs :D But I do actually like them, Im sure Id fit a few into my setup somewhere if I had the cash.

In terms of whether laptops have come of age - I think the answer is already yes. You can get powerful enough laptops now to allow decent enough quality output. Midi & USB handle all the control input requirements you could desire, and we all know theres no shortage of software to use. Theres only 1 area thats still lacking in a big way, and that applies to computers in general - decent multiple source live video input. This isnt improving much eaither because theres no mass market for such facilities, so such products remain few and are priced for the high-end industries that do want them (eg tv studio in a pc)

[eXhale]

Although I don't use audiovisualizers program, I wouldn't be able to do anything worthwhile with only a few DVD players, because they are too linear IMO. I much prefer to have a library of clips that I play when I feel it's the right time (depending on the mood of the audience, the music style, etc) rather than pre-mixing clips in a non-live environement. I actually love to have a live camera feed, and to mix it along with my own stuff, but several softwares can already do this without the use of a hardware mixer.

The real downside of using a single laptop is what happens when it crashes. Depending on the type of events, this can be totally unacceptable. So a backup DVD player with a mixer (or a switcher for the really poor or those who don't want to carry a mixer) is an useful addition.

Of course this whole debate depends on the size of the event, the money involved, your mixing style and what you consider VJing to be about.

[krezrock]

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[krezrock]

if a vj gets hired onto a tour, it's most likely that he/she will not bring their own kit.

laptop vj's (myself included) need to realize that the small kits will not cut it for pro level events. bottom line.
that being said. i will continue to practice my mixing style on my laptop. and i will continue to build my kit so that my laptop(s) are upstream. there are things i can do on my laptop that can only be done in realtime. but to rely on low resolution and limited sources for pro gigs is simply not good enough. so i guess there's a time and a place for the right kit....

truthfully....i think it's all part of the evolving process, and i think this is a very important subject to hash out for both schools.

:love2:

[vjrei]

Laptop is a nasty name for Mac users. We rather call it "powerbooks":D

[KillingFrenzy]

That's because for some reason the same people who will rail about corporate branding and "thinking outside the box" are happy to buy into an entire pre-packaged aesthetic and product cycle produced by Apple.
Apologies for confusing your "Kleenex" with a regular tissue.

[brain]

its great that not every VJ uses the same setup!
diversity is ESSENTIAL to what we do!

different tools and setups are fit for different locations, crowd sizes, music styles. and even there are no rules what will work and what not. i've seen mind-boggling visual work straight from VHS tapes. and i've seen large-scale, ultra-expensive high-res boredom.

after all CONTENT and AESTHETICS are the major issue. if someone manages to achieve a hypnotic, fascinating experience, i don't mind what tools he/she uses. remember: some of the best movies ever made were black and white! without sound! and DJs are using turntables since decades! using the same equipment you see some making a dancing crowd go mad - or home. it's all about talent.

by delivering the best visuals possible we may create an awareness for QUALITY both in audiences AND in promoters. only this will keep crap VJing small!

how do things work with DJs? a promoter will not hire someone who calls himself a DJ just because he bought some records last week and two 1210s AND promises to play for 50 EURO less than a good DJ the promoter knows.

in the long run, you have to convince by GOOD WORK, not by using the latest powerbook or truckloads of gear. quality does not necessarily equal resolution... you simply have to do your stuff so good that ppl will feel the difference between you and some random tape.

besides that, everyone has to decide what equipment he uses. i call for variety! the more different setups we use, the more interesting things may be, because each tool has its own aesthetics. let's all keep on expertimenting with cheap or expensive, oldschool or hightech equipment and create unique styles...

brain

[eXhale]

words of wisdom, brain :)

[burstingfist]

The Rush tour use only 2 laptops and Touch to do the entire projection show. Check out Derivative.com...

[michaelheap]

the entire badly drawn boy tour was done from a apple tibook with no one there.

[wellREDman]

no one is doubting that you can do it with a laptop, the question is whether the quality and versatility At the same time is equivalent to a full rig yet, and doing stuff with bands where everything can be premixed/ordered beforehand and you only play for an hour is very different to jamming live in club where you need a lot more flexibility/variety for a much longer time.

as for the rush thing,if two lappies were used then im presuming a mixer was used to connect them, so were actually talking about a rig, the question was more about single laptops replacing rigs.

actually the question was more about the laptop as a symbol, as in what it represents to the old guard in terms of them being as threat to the old order.

there is always a circle, the revolutionaries grow up to become reactionaries just in time for the next generation to rebel against

[syzygy]

We use Laptops as an upstream source. I can't see us ever using a single laptop as the only source going straight out to projectors.

My experience in the software development world has taught me that no software is totally stable (and never will be unless a radically new way of developing software appears). My experience of live gigs has taught me that anything that isn't totally stable *will* fail at an important point. For anyone who wants to progress to bigger and better gigs, professionalism is important and there is no better way to look unprofessional than sending a software crash out to the crowd (and the promotor)

We're also realising the value of camera work. Even in the small venues that we usually work in, a live camera shot of the DJ at work can really add something to the presentation. In larger venues, the impact is even greater. For mixing in live cameras, computers cannot currently match a video mixer.

On the issue of Pro VJs being threatened by newbies with Laptops, I really don't think the true pros have too much to worry about. There is a limit to the sort of gig that a beginner with a laptop can handle on their own. Anyone who thinks they can handle any gig with a single laptop is going to run into problems when a promotor starts asking for things that they can't provide (live cameras, multiple projections, a recording of the event...)

The important thing, of course, is that everybody accepts that there is a place in the 'food chain' people just starting out and people with masses of kit and experience. As long as newbies realise that they are not going to be able to compete for the bigger gigs until they have more experience while the pros accept that smaller gigs are better suited to an approach with less overheads, I think everyone can coexist.

If anyone does lose a gig to an inferior undercutting competitor, my advise would be to explain to the promotor exactly why your approach is better for them. If they still decide to go with a low cost alternative but come back to you a month down the line because they were let down, then thats an ideal time to talk about a raise in prices ;)

Promotors are always going to have low cost alternatives in every aspect of their clubnights. Those of us who want to make livings (are already are making livings) from visuals need to show promotors why our particular way of doing visuals is worth the money. If a promotor can't see that and decides to go with a different approach then we've got noone to blame but ourselves.

My gut feeling is that the influx of people into club visuals is going to ultimately be a postive thing for pros who really add something to the nights that they work at. As more clubs at the smaller end of the spectrum have visuals, more promotors will expect bigger and better things. They will be prepared to pay for VJs who really add value to their clubnight.

Those are my thoughst anyway...

Dan.

(Syzygy Visuals)

[spaceman]

First thing, let's talk science, the human eye is more sensitive to colours than resolution, try it: same clip, hi-rez, 256 colors - and lo-rez zillions of color........

next, with the newer codec, it all looks very nice too me,

also, no one said that laptop replace mixers, but you CAN'T beat them is terms of media - players and beat-sync

I use 1 laptop, 1 table top, 1 vcr and a mixer, it all fits in the back seat of the car - and i'm happy

Is the same as any art- it's not What you use, It's How you use it

like traveling in a real time generated 3d land scape synced to the beat canont real be achieved without a comp

[fALk]

I did some recent tests on my newly obtained 1Ghz powerbook. I wrote a little mixa app with the video engine that is inside VDMX called softvideo. Together with the max programming environment it is now running on OSX. Well whatta da ya say. I was able to play two FULLRES PAL CLIPS (that is 720x576 24bit YUV UNKOMPRESSED) side by side and mixing them together. Also applied some effects and still had about 10% processor time available... If its that whats the OSX version of VDMX is going to be like then the only thing missing from my set up are two FAT external firewire drives and this should make a turning point. I mean I am then able to output UNKOMPRESSED FULL RES PAL VIDEO... ON A LAPTOP :) That is what the big guys do. That is also the point where I need to think about if DV is the right input format as my input format is lower res (kompression) then the output... limiting me somewhat :jump2:

[unjulation]

carnt find the post that i should post on so this will have to do,lol,

shit, does that mean i will have to re capture the last 4 years worth of work now it loks like lappys have got to a stage ware they can actualy do the biz?????

[KillingFrenzy]

"cumjuggler" is.

[unjulation]

lol bloody loud, sory its prob my twisted sense of humor but thats realy tickeld my fancy, oh er misses !!!!

[vjpixylight]

hmmm, here is a different slant..

I am a traveling VJ, and I prefer, (tho not always the case) to bring as little gear as possible (especially on planes)...

now the slant..

why not let the clubs buy the DVD decks, Mixer, live camera's ect..they have the money and reasons to do so... Most Dj's don't haul around their tech 12's and DJ mixers to clubs, why should we?

If you want to set up a club with all yer hardware and leave it there,and charge a lease on it, then do it...
I have had many problems hauling the Video studio to various gigs in the past, and have learned that doing that is far from ideal..

what really matters is your VJ media..

why not go for high rez/high quality video mixing???
It seems that all of a sudden, ppl think it is either High rez/low quality, or low rez/high quality mixing capabilities...I say you can get both...Look at Falk, he's doing it!

so if you stay in one city, and make money on lots of gear...Good!

if you move around and tour alot, then a couple of lappies upstream from a mixer and a DV cam is really all you need to do a PRO SHO...:nod:

[vjrei]

Ok, if some one does not have the resources to get a laptop it is ok to use a tower, but do not come to me that a tower will perform better than a laptop, I'm not ignorant.

If I had $30.000 for budget to make visuals for "Depeche Mode' I would get a fully loaded 17" Powerbook and Arkaos, that is it.

In my brain I can't see the advantage of taking my tower out of my studio. I have a Powermac for studio work and two powerbooks to take with me in my back pack, so I'm taking 2 computers that can do the same thing as the big one for 1/6th of the trouble in general. I can take a subway with all my equipment, 2 computers in my back pack and the video mixer in a suitcase (with cables in it).

I can not see the point of this thread, we are talking about computers, one big and heavy and the other one light and small. Forget about uncompress video, that is a waste of hard drive space and video ram, learn to use your codecs.

Now, I'm runing my performances with 8MB of video ram and 256MB of regular ram and a G3 500Hmz (2 years old processor). If any of you are using a PC system with better aspects and are not getting good performance then get a Macintosh!!!:zzz:

[holly]

Rei, you are not around a lot of other VJs.... This thread was started because there is constant debate that a laptop can (not) do what a full VJ rig is doing. The debate isn't whether a laptop can replace a tower, but whether a laptop can replace a hardware mixer and several players and also possibly a computer or two. Since you say you are using not one laptop but two and a mixer, it is not the hardline that this thread was originally intended to debate.