Prices? i'll go first

[trailer]

started looking on the net and on this site to get an idea of what other people are charging - i'm making the move from casual to professional and am finding it dificult to have the conviction to charge - what are mainly my mates - the prices that i know i should be charging based on equipment costs alone let alone everything else, etc. but after looking into this a bit and finding that everyone's so hush hush about it - i think its obvious that we could all do with knowing these intimate details, so i'll start (bear in mind, i consider myself underpaid)

...usually its been ?50 per gig, but thats nothing live, just pre done 5 hr tapes plugged into a 1200 lumens vid proj, i also use super 8 and opti stuff if i've got it available at no xtra cost. however, recently and as i've been getting more video equipment and am soon going into live visuals i've up'd the price on my main gig (900 capacity, name djs, three rooms, etc) and am looking to do the same on the rest. for e.g this NYE the gig will pay ?180 - that's ?50 for vid proj hire, ?50 for material/labour, +?20 for some logo stuff on the video, then ?30 for a super 8, and ?30 for an opti 250 with a logo slide done. and there's 2 of us doing the night.

i'm in the UK so interested in finding others responses from the UK too.

i need to know cause if i carry on as i am the 'love of it' will soon wear out, so may as well pack it in sooner than later if its never gonna get me anywhere, but if i do up the price more i need to know this is what other people are charging too so that i dont feel like i'm skanking these people.

thanks in advance.

[wellREDman]

where are you based in the uk mate? and no ?180 quid is not really a huge amount to be charging, but that is just for a tape right? no mixing involved? if your supplying a projector plus content for that I'd say your straying into the realms of bottom feeder, please tell me your not from Brighton

[wellREDman]

sorry if that was a bit harsh but me n my vj partner have just had to call it a day because the bottom has fallen out of the market because of the ppl who are basically doing this as a hobby, who can blag equipment and thus have no overheads have driven the price down over the past year or so to roughly half what it was when we set up in business.

bear in mind that to hire a beamer is about ?120 for a 1k from an AV house and the screen will be another ?30 (if its a pro fastfold or the like) so suddenly the ?180 yr charging doesnt seem quite so much does it? how long do these 5hr mix tapes your doing take you to make? doing it for the love of it is not good, iether for your self respect( if your good enough to make stuff you should be being paid appropriately for your time) or for other VJ's brcause by accepting less than we all our worth it's sending out the message to promoters that vj's arent worth paying even what the sound guy gets

really

promoters boast to each other how much theyve paid out on their "name " DJ
they also boast to each other how little theyve got away with paying the vj

stand up to them
stand up for yourself
were worth it

[trailer]

wellredman cheers for the info, sorry if i hit a sore spot on the prices. *****, you sound like a right nob, that reply was like a pantomime, i already dont like chat rooms.

yeah, i'm charging those prices and have charged less! for mates who i know aren't making money as promoters - dont knock me for being honest and atleast having the balls to say what i get - this was the reason i posted the thread in the first place - to get a better idea of what others are charging so that i can make some better money for breaking my back every weekend.

sort it out!

p.s. more info would be appreciatted.

[trailer]

mate this is rediculous, if you read my original thread you'll find that i was asking about prices cause i was desperate to charge more! up til now i've had no point of refernce. i dont blame people for being reluctant to say what they get paid cause chat room geeks like you throw a wetty! dont try and alienate people who enter into your vj world unaware of your hangups - that private warning message you sent me was like something out of a secret hand shake club, get off the high horse mate. if you're are really concerned about the current state of the vjing business then pass on some advice rather than try and oust me, which if you read my first thread agin you'll realise was all i asked for in the first place.

[vjpixylight]

Trailer, I don't think you'll find many Vj's making the big bucks around here, most because Vj's are expendable...sure we sweeten a party or club, but in reality the Music doesn't need the VJ, the VJ needs the music...

My advice...start working a live PA into the VJ set...or find a well established club who is willing to pay you more to make the club look better...You will find we all have what we want to make, and what we really make, and the 2 are usually far apart..
the average club gig over here in the states goes from 100 to 200 dollars depending on size and such..

I can actually say that I have found a great promoter that I work for now here in Colorado, that pays (all up front) for us to bring out a mass rig (1- 3000 lumen beamer, 2- 1000 lumen beamers, and the rig to work it)...for that we get a measlly 500 bucks... which in reality would prolly only cover the hire of the equipment if we had to hire it out..

hope this helps, but I really hope you don't think that VJ's are getting rich here...

oh did I mention that I've also been doing this for nearly 8 years now??Not exactly a brilliant career move i'd say..

[Amukidi]

Our field is most certainly in a major state of flux - and I believe it is going to get worse before it gets better (if it does). Reason - DVD writers are getting cheap enough now and my guess is many promoters will soon catch on to the fact that a couple of pre-recorded DVDs are a pile cheaper than hiring a VJ! Next time you are in a busy club, just look at the bar, usually 3 deep for the best part of 4-5 hours selling booze at vastly inflated prices. Think about the profits here then wonder why you are still getting ?($)50 a gig! The reason they will keep paying you this sort of paltry fee is the same as why dogs lick their balls - because they can! "Hobbyists" won't help here either - the temptation to grab the limelight is usually too hard to resist, which explains why SO many clubs end up with predictable and piss-poor visuals. The new-found democracy that technology has given us is a 2-edged sword. Sure, it's great that anyone with a good idea and some basic kit, can get out there and do it - but the REAL downside is that, anyone with a good idea and some basic kit, can get out there and do it Trouble is defining the "good idea" bit!! I can't help but fully agree with ***** - if you are gonna do it - do it properly and charge accordingly. Your show must, as the bottom line, have what Business gurus call "added value" or "unique selling points". Without this angle you are doomed! The takings from one good night would set up a club with a couple of DVD players and some compilation disks plus a couple of beamers! Voila, we will enter the world of "Video juke-boxes" again. I do not expect to be performing in small/medium venues in a years time - I don't think anyone will be for any sort of decent return. My guess is that AV sets will become more prevalent (which will sort "the men from the boys") sorry to quote cliches - no sexism intended! I hope that more VJs will see the advantages of allying themselves to DJs/ Live acts. I've done a fair bit of this recently and it has many advantages, not least being that you get treated with more respect and are truly part of the act, not someone stuck in a corner somewhere using thousands of pounds worth of kit and getting paid ?50 for it! And that's all I have to say about that! (for the time being).

[vjpixylight]

that is why I'm making high definition video, and also working on the music end of it..and DVD's are just going to replace the vhs tapev anyhow for clubs already doing that...
yes jaffa, We do need to do the value added or risk being put out of business...

Of course the club owners still need to buy the 5 hour prerecorded tapes from someone and could lend to a whole other side of the business..
Also clubsturning to DVD's would just play cd's or the jukebox if they follow that prerecorded mentality...
That leaves it up to us VJ's to give them something they would really want and pay for..

[JeffMills]

Ok I have all spoken to you at some stage and you have all given me loads of help and support which I appreciate, so I don't want to get involved in a heated discussion with anyone.

Trailer did however have a very good point and one that I face myself. I started VJ'ing when to cut a long story short I found a projector in my possession. At the time I was involved in promoting, and was always keen on making our nights special and hence the club is called Sensoria, and our hook line is the aural and visual experience. We always wanted to offer a show to the paying public otherwise we might as well put on a mix CD, and collect the cash and believe you me I have meet lots of promoters who are just interested in making money and fuelling their ego.

So as a VJ newbie I want to make sure that I am helping the scene and not killing it. I don't believe I have read a thread yet that has asked what a VJ should charge for a night of visuals and some pointers on this would be helpful. At the moment I am not too sure whether I want to make the commitment to start doing things on a more professional level. If you compare an upcoming DJ with an upcoming VJ and a pro DJ with a pro VJ then we all in the same situation. Most new DJ's even at big clubs get paid peanuts in fact the often get paid just their travelling expenses, and there is a lot of competition out there. Whenever I do a night I want people to come away saying that the night was excellent and did you see those visuals I guess we all do!

I don't have the skills of a lot of you, but I do want to put on the best show I possibly can. So I guess what I am trying to say is how can us new VJ's help the scene and not kill it.

What should we charge and how can we help each other to make the scene even bigger?

[wellREDman]

this whole topic got discussed on eyecandy about six months ago, the big problem with us putting prices up here, is where there are areas where there are a lot of vj's competing for the same jobs, such as brighton/london posting our prices will only give the bottomfeeders a better idea of how much to undercut those of us trying to earn a living from it,

but yes it would be a good idea for there to be some way of giving newbies an idea of what to charge and setting some kind of minimum rate , the eyecandy discussion on this tho got bogged down in ppl wanting to unionise vj'ing so here goes with a rough guide to pricing )these are uk prices so if you're elsewhere please try and adjust accordingly, or try and contact someone for your area...

>>>>>>>snip <<<<<<<<

have added the whole thing as a vjc article http://www.vjcentral.com/article/show/2894

[Rovastar]

Most serious respecting VJ over in teh UK will not get out of bed for ?200 odd quid.

Price is a difficult issue for all. So there are so many undeercuting but it is still amazing how many nights still have no visuals and want them for a night.

NEw Vj IMHO are killing the scene. Sorry to sound negative but just look at this thread ' trailer' starts out by making tapes and selling them for ?50 to a big club. They now think that is the going rate.

I mean how can that be good for the scene? But I do respect the fact yoiu posted here and stated how much you charged.

You are doing a 900 person venue with name Vj's etc charging what ?8-12 in. Probably a reasonable door take there.

I can understand wanting to only charage ?50 for a 100 person veneue when it is only 4 quid in but you sound sliek you are doing a big-ish gig.

What a shame they have all you tapes now they can play (unless you hold teh rights to them) all night instead of hiring you.

G-Man (***** or Gangsta Man) stated from the outset and one of teh few that makes no secrets of how much he charages. SO in that sense his info should be fairly useful to yo. Although I would hire ***** for that.;):p:D

Don't confuse how cool doing visuals is with how much you could charage.

Red you info is spot on with stuff there. Good job.

[unjulation]

i would'nt get out of bed for les then ?150 but i'm such a cheep tart i'd rarther make myself avALIBLE then not and would do anyone for nothing

[viscountash]

I just want to answer the question.....

New to Vjing aswell & here's what I charge;

1700lumen projector. 2xMacs with vision mixer;

Charity ?30
Cheap 500capacity student night ?80
Weekend 500capactiy ?130

Its all i can get in the south west! So i have to do it.

[trailer]

just to clear a few things up...?50 has been for up to 250 capacity nights for 5hr tapes (i press play and go home) that remain mine and get used again. the big gig that i mentioned (900 capacity, etc) is the night that i started out on with mates, from scratch, using super 8 stuff. along the way it got bigger, quick, and i started buying video projs learning what i was doing as i went along (mistakes included). i refrained from charging the earth and calling myself profesional for a long time, for reasons like not being happy with my equipment, not having screens and using habidashery instead, etc, etc.... to get into serious money at this stage would have - for me - been garunteeing that i could provide something that wouldn't break, look shoddy, and all the rest, which i couldn't. that gig now pays ?180, based on the fact that still haven't made that move but had started using more expensive equipment. i got onto this site for more info as i am just now beginning to be happy with my equipment, content, (some) screens, and generaly the level of service provided, and am now looking to put more serious prices down and make that jump.

[Amukidi]

Viscountash, I'm sure you don't need telling mate - ALL your gigs a charity at those prices!! just think of the bar takings at any night where there are 500 people out to party. Remember, your beamer is costing you (minimum) ?5 for every hour it is switched on, is it not amazing that folks will pay ?30 - 50 per hour for someone to fix their tap washer, yet you are pushing it to get that for all your hard work! I thought folks had plenty of dosh down the SW!!!

[Anyone]

The only healthy competitive way to approach this is to build VJ personas.

"you should book me not because I'm cheaper, not because I'm better, but because I've got a cult following and my presence will bring 5000 more people through your door, and this is what I charge for this priviledge"

speak the club promoter/ manager's language

Ne1

[robotfunk]

Do you know any VJ's with THAT much pulling power? I sure don't.
I agree this is the best selling point but realistically I think most punters care more for 'more important stuff' such as
music, drugs and meeting other people.

[krokodril]

gosh, its all about the bucks now????

come on, i can state here what i'd when charge and so on
doesn't help cause whatever i charge i'm a compulsary spender on equipment.... and no ofcourse none of us roles out a truckload of gear for 50 or 100....
thiong with the bottom that fell out of the market, sorry but BULLSHIT , what happened is there now is a bottom market(cheap screensavers and ripped video's with mtv logo in every bar who consider themselves a club)

And to all the people who are afraid for pricedrops.... it will happen..... in this bottom section(sametime enabeling a lot of young kids to start being creative)

but also keep in mind that a beamer once(yes i remember) costed about 10.000 for 350 lumen........
same with pc and everything prices do drop
doesn't mean the fee, (the leftovers) drop, as soon as real quality is a demand you make as much as any labourer whereas this buiseness is fun...

[krokodril]

oh and i missed the last comments by robotfunk

remember it's also about the drugs:nod: waia!!!![COLOR=deeppink]wake up boys ther's a new daze work ahead
:D

[holly]

NE1 is right. Build a reputation, create a persona ? onscreen and off. Be original. Get publicity. It's showbiz folks. Why do you think Brad Pitt makes millions per performance? Because he's a good actor??? You think art is sold in galleries or hanging in a museum because it's pretty or technically correct? Bullshit. It's about having a recognizable name, a recognizable style, and sticking with it until you build a reputation. Being a VJ is no different.

Any fanboy can buy equipment but pretty soon ALL YOUR TOYS WILL BE MOOT (all your base belong to us!). There's not a single new club built today that doesn't have video capabilities built-in. That's trickling down to bars and restaurants too. Within 3 years someone will release a VJ-Disc player. Within 6 years the only gear you'll be carrying is a book of dvds or an iPOD with video-outs. Shit, I just saw the first animated video billboard over the steps of a subway station!!! Video is everywhere. Any restaurant can buy a hippotizer and load it up with the same generic content from Audio-Visualizer's store. Most patrons wouldn't know the difference.

Invest in gear only if you're renting it out (or being paid the equivilant!), and do the free events with friends only when YOU control the night. Never do charity events unless YOU ARE the charity. Invest in yourself and your own name, not some promotor's. Someone asks you for a discount? What's in it for you? Will it build your reputation? Is your name #1 on the flyer? No? Then fuck it. Stay home and work on your visuals. You're better off.

HOLLY

[Anyone]

Originally posted by robotfunk
Do you know any VJ's with THAT much pulling power? I sure don't.


Well, that's what we have to work on...
Some people do have the pulling power

In my part of the woods: Hexstatic, Kriel, Coldcut, Light Surgeons
In Japan: Glamoove, Tomographer
In your area, not sure, maybe Micha Klein?

I'm convinced there is a change coming,
from "I dont care what you do, how cheap can you do it?"
to "I dont care what you do, how many people can you pull?"

wake up boys and girls,
promoters have been asking that to DJs for a long time.
and in a way that's what I'm asking through Vectors,
(though in a nicer way of course)

N.B. These comments should be taken as prescriptive, not just predictive. ie dont just wait for this to happen, MAKE IT HAPPEN !

Ne1

[jeffhtg]

i will never reveal my secrets :)

[fluchtpunkt]

i perfectly agree.
building a reputation is VERY important. e.g. i insisted on being (well) placed on flyers long before i asked for money. & very much to my benefit.
once you have a reputation, a style that's recognized, things get a lot easier & you can go forward much faster.

[Rovastar]

Originally posted by Anyone


Well, that's what we have to work on...
Some people do have the pulling power

In my part of the woods: Hexstatic, Kriel, Coldcut, Light Surgeons
In Japan: Glamoove, Tomographer
In your area, not sure, maybe Micha Klein?



To be fair Anyone Hexstatic and Coldcut are AV acts and teh punters will generally go for the music. They are a good music act with good visuals a bit like DJ shadow is known as (seen many on VJ releted forums, press that said the visuals where good). How many punters can name the VJ??

This is not the same comparison as just VJ's.

Kriel is one of the biggest names IMHO over here but how many people does he draw into a club. No disrepect to you CHarles but I cannot imagine it is in the thousands.

The real test how many would turn up to a gig with DJ fred bloggs and VJ Kriel (or any pure VJ at this stage). MAybe it means AV acts are the way to go dunno but it is not what I am about and no doubt many here.

Japan might be different but this might just a an urban myth I dunno. Maybe that is the scene to break into. NO Japanesse on these forums? Ummmh.

If they really do pay big money then maybe a plane trip is on order.:):p I am sure thousands of Japanesse would have heard of my name.:nod:

[Amukidi]

Hexstatic are, IMHO the ideal blend, they are both fairly equally involved in both visuals and music - from where I'm standing, people go to see the show. I must admit that I could see myself going down that road, I certainly suspect that in a year's time, there will be far fewer "Gigs" as we know them - we've just got to move with the times. The advent of cheap DVD writers is a double edged sword - they will put a fair few VJs out of work.

[bluntfaktory]

Its nice to know theres folks out there suffering through the same kind of crap I have to deal with in order to pay my mortgage. But who cares what methodology you use to acheive your images, its the final performance and product that counts.
I like the comment Holly made about insisting on getting your name billed on the flyer along with the DJ's. Cause it seems to me that is a perfect way to create awareness of whose doing the visuals, so the kids know whose doing what and where, thereby creating worth as an artist that adds to any environment they're involved in.
This would create hype for you and the job you do and is a good way to dispell; as you Brits so eloquently put, "bottom feeders", from coming in and slashing costs as you would then create draw and worth. (Maybe)
Usually the policy that we take here in order to up our costs, we've invested in all our own gear and use that to suppliment the art. as it doesn't matter what promoter or club owner you deal with, generally, they all figure art should be free. "BASTARDS"
Would love to see what you guys have been doing as we're on the other side of the rocky mountains in beautiful Vancouver, Canada. Visuals have been a constant here since the mid 1990's. We're now absolutly saturated with newbies charging low fees but they're shows are shitty and simple economics won't allow them to reinvest in new gear, update they're show or stay a float for more than three months. We just hang tight and starve them out and focus strictly on high end shows.

[Primebase3]

Hey yo,.... (JLS scratching his pimpled ass in the morning...new years is 2morrow 2 more vids in the render...)

..the fu... the fuck's going on bottomfeeders??? WHERE ??? WHERE|??? ..oh shit ...must be dreaming.

ok I wrote this:

Dickhead1 has idea dickhead1 projects video dickhead1 gets paid. other dickhead(2) sees and wants...dickhead2 projects dickhead2 gets paid less but work is also lower quailty...

Dickhead1 mad...

Question: what does dickhead 1 need to do to keep same price
yet change promotor's mind to keep him instead of dickhead2 ???


I ..guess this about sums up the whole thread until a certain beautiful white woman had a good point


orginality,content for one promoter at a time, marketing , press hunting ...gee if you did all that things would go a lot better. ok ok so the oxfordbusiness school is a little out a reach but the original content (and yes that is my mantra) keeps your prices high. ok ok every dude can show geiss bun can everybody
show a beautifal rainfall freezing up in photograph quality with someone jumping in extreme slowmotion over a mad bull ??


no??


..anybody??

well the point I'm trying to make is this if dickhead1 wants to win from dickhead2 the object is simple: beat him down in everything he can't do ...you know like ...coca cola and pepsi

:rolleyes: sjeez , back 2 work ..


happy newyear cats peace

[rossco]

seems to me that from the original question by 'trailer' - how much do you charge - most members have been shy or wise enough not to give exact answers.

the old 'bottom feeder' issue has beeen dealt with and a few plp flamed.

as for my thoughts on how it goes:

you want to know how much you can get away with charging to a promoter? tell him a price!

if they likes you/your work/ or just needs someone to fill a screen they will pay whatever they think is reasonable.

what does a promter think is reasonable? - depends on you

1.whether they think you is still wet behind the ears = as little as they can.

2. whether they think your work will really add to the venue = a mutually agreeable fee.

3. Whether they think your work will pull in loads of punters cos you are a super star performer = whatever YOU can get away with charging!!

so the crux, if you are new to this all, don't go asking questions like how much does matey from blah blah visuals charge. gET AMONGST IT, get out there and find out for yourself what you can charge. Everyone has dfferent costs and investements to cover, only you will know what is an acceptable and livable/workable cash flow.

The longer that you are in the game the more experience you get and the better idea you will have of what's what.

Learn from your own experiences


peace out..

[unjulation]

i need to revise the earlier statement i made , and this goes out spercificly to *****, cos i must be a botom feeder, cos all people ofer me is ?100 or you can fuck of unj so what do i do ? do i do the gig and hopefuly make the contacts or do i say no, as a bisnes man i would say no but as a performer how could i not to the gig?

[unjulation]

the next question to ask is how do you tern yourself from an indervidual with talent who gets paid peanents in to some one who can get paid ?67 an hour?

[viscountash]

its all very well talking about huge professional prices and then newbie prices, but can everyone realise that there must be a sliding scale here. The nights i work at where i obviuosly undercharge and cause a huge debate can only afford that price. The club takes no responsibility for art as its a dive, it only interest is bar takings, which aren't great 'cos everyones taking drugs instead, so i get paid from the promotors pocket; This is extremelly tight. ?500 club hire. ?200 security. ?800 dj's. ?300 promotion etc etc. All this is necessary. Then to get in someone to light up the place with his video art and equipment is kinda like a favour. I can't charge ?400 because i could never justify it (at the moment).

[michaelheap]

do what you need to do to justify it, show that people like coming into a club with visuals, rather than a scummy club with dim lighting, show the promoter/owner that the benifits you bring out weigh the costs.

People may not Recognise VJ X from VJ Y but if they prefer the night that VJ X puts on, because it makes the venue look less like a dive, there more likley to come.

VJ's need to get into putting club nights on, promote your own, I have always done this NE1 does as well, or allai your self to a major name or label and get booked that way. but being able to plug a laptop into a projector and playing audiovisualizers clips does not a VJ make.

on a different note:-

I had a strange experience the other day, we tried to book our normal venue in white chapel for a xmas party for our av club night and the venue owner said the venue was booked up. so we went to the telegraph in brixton instead.

low and behold the owner of the venue decided to come and check out us at the new venue. We get an offer from the owner of our usual venue 2 days later of a regular placement at his club and a reduction in price he wants from us to hire the club.

what does this say? well he likes us alot, and is keen to keep us.

so listen up kiddys show them what you have got, and then take it away. they will come back with a better offer.

[unjulation]

this is very true, but i would rarther be out ther honeing my skils to live music and audiance then sat in my bedroom w******g off to my own visuals, the outher point of geting into vj per-say for me was i could no longer deal with all that side of it that is created within seting up a partie from scratch cos when i did i would never have enough time to create the visuals that i whanted to

[vjrei]

Charge the same as the DJ (per hour) plus your equipment. I do no charge the proyectors because I will have to install them. I rent them.

I strted at the begaining of 2002 charging $50 the night. Now I'm charging $1200 and eventually $2000.... why? because I went every where creatting a name and the NEED of a VJ.

What else do I offered: An animation with the name of the place and the name of the DJ's too.

You have to work around your clients EGO.

No one is gonna pay me for a tape.

Visit my web site and look at my gigs, they are in Quictime video.

www.hiperhouse.com

Focused in your work and treat the client good, that is it. Crate a name, that is your primary job.

[unjulation]

i've been away from vjf for a few months now and i didnt reerlise that the term botom feder referd to people who stole outhers gigs i jkust presumed it was about the hiarichey of ware you are within the food/pay chain so i'd like to distance my self from that defanition of my self but hay the groups i work for all know that so no skin of my nose there :)