future funding of vjforums

[KillingFrenzy]

Originally posted by sleepytom
i quit

as it goes nobody here can even suggest a basic way to make VJforums sustainable, this would need to cover the costs of maintaing the server including hosting costs and technical support costs. nobody has contributed any real ideas to this situation since exhale left months ago.

http://www.vjforums.com/showthread.php?threadid=11785

[elbows]

Yes there has been some valuable discussion by people about possible funding etc etc. Clearly there are plenty of members who care about it enough to talk about it, but who will prove to be capable and caring enough to DO something about it?

The problem is that whilst the funding factor is hugely important,its not the first hurdle. The first hurdle is who/what is setup to own vjcentral/provide hosting, who is responsible, who the money goes to.

It will either be another individual, or it will be some of entity that people have to work on to setup etc. Its not just a question of someone having a spare server etc, its about legal responsibility and all that stuff.

As bridge I was supposed to ensure this smooth transition, but Ive no idea how right now.

[RayV]

i quit
by Sleepytom

shame
:sad:
i guess u need to refresh, Tom
but u got to remember some great threads -
all the unique gear ppl teach how to build & many other stuff going on, & good moments
You are obviously a great contributor & asset to this forums.
yes, the vibe has changed. the "elders" group are busy,
tho' still stepping in from time to time
im sure its not only me, no one wants to see you go, Tom.

I just don't really get how one bitter thread created such a chaos without undo to it
Can't you just ignore the borring/pointless threads? [i guess not]


Ok. in order to do something real,
we need to know how much money we need to collect each month to cover the server costs,
find who is willing & able to collect donations,
agree on the right person
or even agree on terms of advertising & if at all - accepted by all
[yea no one wants it BUT, hey, can we relay only on donations? is it ok that one person to be paying it alone?
do we want vjc/vj to vanish?]
- maybe 50/50 split?
fund meter?
btw - where's is the donation button gone?
what's next? who do we ask all that?

hope its not that bad, n all can be fixed n sorted

[dansmachine]

It would help if some of the responsibility for the post was given to the users, in other words the possibility to edit ones own posts even after half an hour.

Now if something is put on the forums in a rush of whatever it can't be rephrased unless the mods or admins interfere. And they don't like to do that, which is their policy. OK for the latter, but not OK that posts are here for 'eternity'.

Btw, if you alter a post after being quoted, it's too late anyway since the quote remains.

[hamageddon]

i've split the thread from vj forums police due to change of topic

[KillingFrenzy]

Perhaps a "town hall" chat on the subject, followed by a series of more focused committee chats.
I don't think I've ever managed to hit the video chat properly, but I'd be willing to schedule and attend a series of chat meetings to sort this out.
Each meeting would have a proper agenda set, and by working out the details over the course of a few weeks we should be able to push through the bump of confusion we're at right now.
The first step would be to organize the big chat that everyone could attend and get general steering questions out of the way. From there, focus to smaller group that are willing to meet regularly until a sustainable system is set up.

[sleepytom]

lets not get into a blue skys funding discussion... donations should be able to cover the core costs for at least a while - anything else would need a lot of work and we are not in a stable enough position to even discuss it yet...

my best plan for the future would be...

to form a uk based organisation and open a co-op bank community direct account - this is a good bank account coz its FREE and they will give it to any org that is not for profit (you don't need to be a registered company or any of the scary crap) it also has online banking so we can actually use it without having to go to a branch.

then we open a paypal account and have a banner with the click here to donate button - i vote to also send monthly spam to all registered users asking for a $2 donation. (uk people can set up a standing order even)

if people are in broad agreement that this is the way forward then we need to select some people to be signaturys on the bank account - they should be trusted long term members of the community who live in the UK and don't have dodgy credit history!

we should also draft a constitution for the organisation (see next post for my proposed consitiution addapted from avituk)

once we have the bank up and running we can transfer any money that elbows has left over from avit donation to the bank account and arrange for the hosting costs to be paid from the new account.

[sleepytom]

VJCentral - Proposed DRAFT CONSTITUTION <<<<


Name of Organisation: VJCentral


Objectives:

To develop the networked community of VJCentral.com
To maintain and enhance the VJForums.com community message board
To increase public participation in VJing
To facilitate the development and skills base of existing VJ's
To raise the profile and standard of live video performance as an art form


VJCentral will work under the principle of subsiduarity ? wherever possible decisions will be made by the general members of VJCentral.com. The organising committee is chosen from active members of the online community at VJCentral.com. Members of the organising committee are listed in the ?Committee Members? document.
New members join the committee by method of agreement by a quorum of that committee.
The organising committee will meet as necessary, and have an annual general meeting.

All decisions must be agreed by a quorum of the organising committee of VJCentral, unless agreed otherwise by a two-third majority of the organising committee.
A quorum of AVIT UK is reached when half of the members of the organising committee are present at a meeting. Any changes to the constitution must be agreed on by two-third majority of the organising committee.
The organising committee voting procedure works on the basis of one member one vote.
Members may resign from the organising committee, giving at least one months written notice of their decision to do so.

Members may be expelled from the committee by means of a unanimous vote. A meeting to resolve the issue will be held within one month. The member in question may not vote on such an occasion. A move to expel can only be brought if the member has been found to be negligently failing to further the objectives of VJCentral or failing to abide by a reasonable standard of conduct, or if that member has not been present at any meetings for 6 months.


The organising committee shall hold powers to do all such lawful things as are necessary for the achievement of the objects of VJCentral.


VJCentral is a not-for-profit organisation. Any monies received by VJCentral will remain within the organisation for use to achieve the objectives stated, through methods agreed on by the organising committee. No dividends or bonuses shall be paid to members of the organising committee by VJCentral.
Should VJCentral be dissolved, all assets will be donated to charitable organisations as agreed by a quorum of the organising committee of VJCentral .


The organising committee would consist of the current editors hosts and administrators.

[KillingFrenzy]

Those last two posts put things way farther ahead then I thought we were. They both sound great to me, and the chat idea doesn't seem necessary if you're already that far. The question then is more what support is needed to accomplish those goals?

[sleepytom]

well...

i should emphasise that these are just ideas - the constitution is just avituk's with a find and replace job done on it. and the bank account business i happen to know about coz of years of community projects that i've been involved in.

sadly i have learnt during these years that often the best ideas don't happen because people don't stand up and present them.

personally i like the idea of a community run organisiation more than i like the reality of it! i hate online meetings and find chat rooms to be a nightmare breeding ground for tangents.

one possible advantage of my plan is that it involves little practical change to the current organisational structure. although really i'd hope to improve transparency of moderation and the decision making process.

one possible disadvantage of my plan is that involves little practical change to the current organisational structure! to quote george bush "things would be a lot simpler in a dictatorship"

[asterix]

Tom that sounds great. Basically a standardised version of what already is working nicely.
Suggestion (although this may not necessarily have to be written into the constitution):
Include specific committee roles i.e. legal, financial, marketing, technical etc... that way your committee has specific people active in specific fields - and they should follow through on committee decisions, or review current standards. That way the workload isn't lumped on one or two ppl. (All decisions are still put through the committe).

[elbows]

Originally posted by asterix

FUNDING: How about running a vj mix battle (similar to photoshop battle) then reselling a compiled DVD/ download. Thats a positive community driven fund raiser and doing things we know how to do best :).

Why not even start up a small online shop that someone like elbows could run?

Also the ad free environment is great. But honestly I don't have a qualm with a banner here or there (not inundated though).

CONTROL:
Let me have a think about it. I'll draft up a system and post soon. Perhaps if a few others do the same (you too elbows - theres weight to your sole ownership idea) we can put this to a vote.

Alternative funding ideas are always welcome, but the main danger with a lot of them is being sure that the finances they create do more than just cover the effort of the fundraising activity itself. For example an online store is not to be taken lightly, and stores often arent as profitable as they sound. Also creates issues of quality/customer service etc, dont want any problems with such things giving the forum a bad name etc.

Whenever advertising is raised, it does seem like there is the possibility that at least some of the community could stomach a banner or 2, it's not a step to take lightly but it is certainly one possibility for the future if other funding things dont work. Still its possibly also true that some users would rather donate a bit to avoid adverts.

As for the 'sole ownership' idea, I dont really favour that option enough to draw up further details, not at this stage. I just wanted to air the idea in vague form, I presume its far less desirable than other community options, but I thought Id test the presumption. Ive always assumed people wanted it to be community woned/controlled, but I mention it just in case I was wrong and people care more about results and not having to take responsibility themselves, than about power/control.

I support the stuff sleepytom has been saying. To my mind the keys to such a things sucess are keeping it as simple as possible, so that it isnt strangled by its own beurocracy and becomes too much like very unrewarding and frustrating work for those involved. And also of course finding out who is actually willing to be a part of such a thing. Its probably premature to ask interested people to give solid commitments at this stage, but it would be interesting to see who would potentially be up for creating that thing, as well as who likes the idea.

[hamageddon]

Originally posted by elbows
Alternative funding ideas are always welcome, but the main danger with a lot of them is being sure that the finances they create do more than just cover the effort of the fundraising activity itself.

time to plug the online raffle again.
basically the same thing avituk did
but software only, because of the shipping costs. the system would be similar to donations, but with the chance of winning a vj software package, freeframe plugs and downloadable vj loops

[disassembler]

.................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .......
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.................................................. .................................................. .....
.................................................. .................................................. .....
.................................................. .................................................. .....
.................................................. .................................................. .....
.................................................. .................................................. .....
.....Poster: a poster made from everyone VJforums avatar.
People who want to be on the poster pay a small fee to be on
the poster.

.................................................. .................................................. .....
.................................................. .................................................. .....
.................................................. .................................................. .....
.......................Sticker two color on Clear.....Of design voted on by
the VJCentral communitee to represent the forum..Maybe just
drop the word forums from the header and just use the symbol.
Or make a new
design. .................................................. ..........................................
.................................................. .................................................. .....
......Contest to redesign the VJCentral/Forums identity, you
have to pay a small fee to enter and the communitee votes on
the
design. .................................................. ..........................................
.................................................. .................................................. .....
.................................................. .................................................. .....
.................................................. .................................................. .....
......Tshirts 1 or 2 color >>AudioVisualizers
made a T-shirt and they sold out, surely VJcentral could if they
had nice art on
it................................................ .................................................. .....
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[RootsDigitalized]

I really understand how difficult to raise fund for this forums.

I agree all idea to raise the fund, but I thnk we must think globally. We are in Indonesia want to participate too, how can I participate for those all ideas?

Let's face it, this VJforums have all around the world members. (+/- 9747 members?)

Members
Afghanistan (58)
Albania (10)
Algeria (6)

American Samoa (6)
Andorra (5)
Angola (2)

Anguilla (6)
Antarctica (15)
Antigua and Barbuda (1)

Argentina (116)
Armenia (1)
Aruba (4)

Australia (330)
Austria (123)
Azerbaijan (2)

Bahamas (3)
Bahrain (2)
Bangladesh (1)

Barbados (3)
Belarus (7)
Belgium (196)

Belize (7)
Benin (1)
Bermuda (6)

Bhutan (2)
Bolivia (2)
Bosnia Herzegowina (16)

Botswana (2)
Brazil (228)
British Indian Ocean Territory (2)

Bulgaria (11)
Burundi (1)
Cambodia (1)

Canada (329)
Central African Republic (2)
Chad (1)

Chile (46)
China (47)
Cocos Islands (1)

Colombia (43)
Congo (2)
Costa Rica (11)

Cote D'Ivoire (11)
Croatia (41)
Cuba (1)

Cyprus (1)
Czech Republic (83)
Denmark (50)

Dominican Republic (6)
East Timor (1)
Ecuador (2)

Egypt (4)
El Salvador (3)
Equatorial Guinea (1)

Eritrea (1)
Estonia (11)
Falkland Islands (2)

Finland (50)
France (439)
French Guiana (5)

French Polynesia (1)
Georgia (7)
Germany (530)

Ghana (1)
Gibraltar (1)
Greece (45)

Greenland (1)
Guam (2)
Guatemala (5)

Guyana (1)
Haiti (1)
Hong Kong (20)

Hungary (63)
Iceland (5)
India (61)

Indonesia (38)
Iraq (3)
Ireland (74)

Israel (114)
Italy (282)
Jamaica (5)

Japan (67)
Jordan (2)
Kenya (1)

Kuwait (3)
Latvia (18)
Lebanon (4)

Lithuania (15)
Luxembourg (10)
Macau (3)

Macedonia (3)
Malaysia (10)
Malta (6)

Mexico (91)
Micronesia (1)
Moldova (6)

Morocco (4)
Nepal (4)
Netherlands (523)

New Caledonia (1)
New Zealand (104)
Nigeria (7)

North Korea (2)
Norway (43)
Other Country (13)

Pakistan (10)
Panama (2)
Papua New Guinea (1)

Paraguay (3)
Peru (18)
Philippines (30)

Pitcairn (1)
Poland (148)
Portugal (285)

Puerto Rico (12)
Romania (34)
Russian Federation (53)

Rwanda (1)
Saudi Arabia (1)
Senegal (1)

Seychelles (3)
Sierra Leone (1)
Singapore (19)

Slovak Republic (23)
Slovenia (27)
South Africa (29)

South Korea (36)
Spain (364)
Sri Lanka (4)

St. Helena (2)
Swaziland (1)
Sweden (54)

Switzerland (100)
Syrian Arab Republic (1)
Taiwan (19)

Thailand (14)
Togo (3)
Trinidad and Tobago (1)

Turkey (38)
Tuvalu (1)
Uganda (2)

UK (1791)
Ukraine (15)
United Arab Emirates (12)

Uruguay (11)
USA (1893)
Uzbekistan (1)

Vatican (2)
Venezuela (38)
Viet NAM (12)

Virgin Islands (1)
Western Sahara (1)
Yemen (3)

Yugoslavia (41)
Zambia (1)
Zimbabwe (3)

the data weren't valid. Cause we can multiple registered as a new member.

I think we have to organize and manage this forums globally.
Yes, we have to own based country (UK/US?) but we have to accomodate all VJs around the world (especially active members)

i think, each country must organize their VJs first, for example update the authentic data for all VJs who already registered in VJ forums, so we can have the real data for all VJs in their country, not just fake id or multiple id. then they choose one VJ in their country as an "ambassador".

I don't know this, I think not all real VJs registered at VJ forums. Vello Virkaus, Micha Klein. Are they registered at VJforums?
If they are, I think they aren't an active members.

So we can ask them to join us as an active members, maybe just share their experience to us.

Personally, I have a goal to bound all VJs in my country, so we can go globally. I hope this VJforums will be the place for us to realize that.

[fALk]

i think lets make it as simple as possible. Online raffle and big poster with all members are a great idea. Also registering a google ad account on behalf of vjcentral and incorporating it on the frontpage (and there only I guess)would be nice. I know there are quite a few vj oriented ads in adsense (fellow vjs, software, hardware)so I guess they would be clicked quite often. So I suggest:

Raffle and open call for donation for short term

Poster maybe middle term - poster can be an online thingy. Maybe a creative vj poster that moves or whatever - if you and your name should be included you better pay?!

AdSense long term

not much fuss. I would trust the AVIT UK group with the handling of all this.

BTW. I welcome our 58 Afghan VJ overlords :D

[sleepytom]

online raffels are illegal in most of europe and the usa. (well they are possible but their is a big BIG issue with the legality of online gambling) also any raffle system would need a good deal of coding to make it work - we simply cannot expect people to do that for free.

anything that requires a product to be made and shipped to people is a lot of work for someone - that person needs to be paid and so the profits are small. also much potential for loss of credibility due to shipping errors (see audiovisualizers etc etc)

anyway as ever people have missed the point - the first work is to setup the organisation, get a bank account and a paypal account - then we have the possibility of people making donations.

I don't understand the point that RootsDigitalized makes? if we have a paypal account and a bank account then we can accept donations from anyone in the world. it sounds more like you want us to become the UN of vjing? i think we can probably leave that till a bit later!

[alangeering]

rootsdigitalised:

You're describing the UN! Even they have smaller groups (Security Council) because if they didn't then things just would not get done!


I'm all for what Tom's suggesting. It deals with the legal issues and banking issues.

I'm also all for the participation of world VJs (we always have been).

I have one or two concerns but from experience I know they will get worked out.

An analogy:

I'm sat in a church. The activities of the church are run by the church members.

The buildings are owned and maintained by a group of trustees (a not for profit organisation with this sole purpose).

Some trustees are church members, some are not.

The church membership/leadership helps the trustees by noticing things that need fixing/improving.

The church members provide an income to the trustees.

When the church membership/leadership wants a new extension or adition to the building then it asks the trustees and supplies them with the extra cash necessary.


Bringing it home
You and I are the church (VJCentral/VJforums members of all flavours).
The proposed VJC committee are the trustees.



Problems:
The only ones I can see are when the VJFmembers may differ in opinion to the VJF/VJC committee. What happens then I do not know.
It's obvious that the committee members will have to be active members of the community for this to work at all.

Alan

[sleepytom]

indeed - initially at least i suggest that the commitee members are the active hosts / moderators / editors / admins.

however we should encorage participation and have a clearly defined application route for anyone who wishes to be part of the commitee. however this should probably be limmited to poeple who have been active members for a certain lenght of time.

logs of the meetings the committiee hold should be made available for genral members to view.

things should be as transparent as possible whilst maintaining a workable system!

nobody should be in a position of being indespecable - thus anyone can leave / drop out for a while if they become too busy with other things to continue.

[vjrei]

Everything is part of the same...

VJ Forums should have all the chances to be sponsored but...

I met a guy the other day in Miami who was developing a web site for VJ content, he came here showing his web site and he told me everybody was so rude at him.

The same with some other event producer.

I mean... the moderators are responsible of the way the topics are managed by the users. This have been leding that this web site becomes so unpopular.

The lack of managment is what is taking this web site down, it is so obvious.

"There are not bad crews but bad captains".

To be a moderator implies responsabilities.

Now ?how am I going to give money for something that offers such bad karma?

The moderators need to check themselves, if you are not listening to this well, good bye VJ Forums and is going to be because of its leadership.

Then do not come here saying the VJ industry is bad and so, you are the ones who can not manage their on community healthy and constructive. Think about it, shake yor head and realize this site is an actual corporation of some sort.

[Lucidhouse]

I recon.. all these will work and theres no reason why they could'nt all be intergrated.

*competitions
*donations
*Tee shirts/mouse mats etc [though the forum logo's not exiting]
*Content/mix dvd's
*banner adds -the golden opertunity [edirol,korg, pioneer etc...]


[and a much needed VJ forum face lift to go ]

theItalian forum (http://www.vjcentral.it) is a great example!

[elbows]

Originally posted by vjrei
I mean... the moderators are responsible of the way the topics are managed by the users. This have been leding that this web site becomes so unpopular.

The lack of managment is what is taking this web site down, it is so obvious.

"There are not bad crews but bad captains".

To be a moderator implies responsabilities.

How about everybody that posts takes some responsibility for this rather than blaming the moderators only?

Moderation is a balancing act. Its certainly true that in the case of vjforums, the balance has been towards letting people post what they like, rather than heavily moderating everything. The problem is that we have been given no remit by the community to do it any different. Just look at the poll neoteo started, what moderator has the right to start being stricter when the members say they are more interested in freedom of speech etc?

Its true that moderators should ideally lead by example and this doesnt always happen. But the problem is hardly as easy to fix as you suggest, unless people are in favour of changing the rules.

I would lso suggest that the style of moderating here has been about the same since this place first started. People didnt have a problem with it years ago so what has changed?

Irresponsible people who go crying for someone else to be responsible and sort out their own messes for them, to cure the downsides of human nature, will get more respect from me when they start practicing what they preach.

[freakowen]

the idea of a committee of moderators seems like a great idea if it's workable.

I've been using this site for about 18 months and have found it invaluable, it's answered my questions, provided inspiration, sources of content and even the odd gig. I'd be happy to set up a standing order to pay a few quid a month in to keep the place running.

As far as the issues surrounding the moderators - I've never had a problem with them, at the end of the day we're all grown ups and (hopefully) don't need a referee when we have conversations in real life. I'm always of the opinion that what a person posts says more about them than the site they're posting on; so if someone wants to flame, make spurious claims or repeatedly and flagrantly break the aup, let them - in the same way as real life it will all go towards forming my opinion of them.

[visualove]

I agree with many of the points made:

Set up legal structure, accounts including Paypal for donations, transparent bookeeping - published finance statements, continued worldwide focus. A board made up of the moderators and a few outside directors who know finance and the legal stuff, maybe throw in a university professor.

I do not believe ad revenue is a bad thing. I would suggest Google text based ads, discretely presented as a sidebar.

(I certainly respect those who oppose ads and value not only free information as well as its free flow.)

However, a simple text ad only system will keep the site loading fast for our international members. (I for one am sick of lame banner ads)

The VJ community is the perfect community for a Google ad like system - we're somewhat specialized and we are always on the lookout for specialized content, hardware and software. Many of our members provide services to one another and outside. The advertisers primarily pay for results which is a better return than magazine advertising.

I'd be glad to discuss via PM as well.

[RootsDigitalized]

Originally posted by sleepytom
anyway as ever people have missed the point - the first work is to setup the organisation, get a bank account and a paypal account - then we have the possibility of people making donations.

I don't understand the point that RootsDigitalized makes? if we have a paypal account and a bank account then we can accept donations from anyone in the world. it sounds more like you want us to become the UN of vjing? i think we can probably leave that till a bit later!

Ok, that's just an idea, but for your information several countries (including my country - were banned by paypal for some reasons (fraught?)

I think Neoteo case was the perfect example why we should have a good organization here in VJforums. I know.. I don't make us to become the UN of vjing. I just want to know how to particapate besides give this VJforums a donations.



Originally posted by Lucidhouse
theItalian forum is a great example!

wow they have an advertising banner. how come VJcentral.com not?
I think they have some good features too, like photo gallery.

Ok. I think we have to get some conclusions.
I am ready to help anything for this VJcentral. Whatever you guys trying to do, as long as for build this community solid and better - I'm in.

[sleepytom]

VJfoums has not adverts because we haven't sorted out having any. we don't have a bank account at the moment - this is why it quite hard for people to make donations or for us to host advertising.

yeah the italian forum looks great - we want to have some of that functionality too but at the moment the things that have to take prioroitory are sorting out the enterty that runs VJForums - getting a bank account and all the rest of that boring crap.

most people in the world can use paypal and its the only simple and cheap system for accepting donations from the majoritory of the world. when we have the bank account and paypal set up then i'll start looking into alternative methods of payment processing. in the mean time i'm sure you can use western union if you really want to send some money :)

i don't see what the neoteo case has to do with the organisation of VJForums? the guy clearly had some issues but this is a forum for VJs to talk about VJing not a place to publicly demonstarte your inability to deal with the world. almost every community project i have ever been involoved in has had to deal with the insane from time to time.

(i'm deleting the neoteo related posts from this thread coz they are not relevent here - maybe thatwill make him happy that he in some way won? i dunno i've given up on the concepts of loss and victory these days)

[seex]

I think,

Make a banck account and a donate button and when there is extra money on the account start realising other ideas, i like the loop shop idea, it gives users an option to donate money or a loop. The advertising ideas i like too.

[t2k]

Has anyone suggested moving the forums to a free forum service like google/yahoo/etc? Is that too lame? :)

trey

[visualove]

moving the forums to a free forum service like google/yahoo/etc?

Personally I think it's more important to establish a stable organization and funding going forward. It was a lot of work to move the forums/central the last time.

I don't have a problem with it being incorporated in the UK - do you have access to legal types who can do it for free? - there are plenty of volunteer solicitors who do work for the arts in the US.

[asterix]

I like dissassemblers idea. I have a large format plotter - a top of the range roland that die cuts and prints on media up to 5mm thick. I don't mind doing stickers, posters and anything that might retail (t-shirts even).
Would the VJF management give me the ok to produce/ distribute them, and banner them on the website. Payments can be made directly to vjf paypal. More details please email me (whoever I need to talk to...) astrixstar at hotmail