Proposition: Tag System for VJ Uploads

[trotskythecat]

WHAT:
I propose we create a unified system for tagging VJ clips - useable on sites like archive.org, del.icio.us, mefeedia, etc.

So far, I have come up with the following tags:

General:
vj.asset [for reusable clips]
vj.mix [for clips that are made for watching rather than re-use]

Size: (assuming that clips are prepared in 4:3)
sz.640
sz.320

Codec:
cdc.mjpeg [motion jpeg a/b or photo jpeg]
cdc.shr [sheer video]
cdc.qtz [quartz composer]
cdc.swf [for FLA and SWF]

Other:
smls [seamless loop]
set:name [for clips that are part of a larger set]
av [for clips that have audio directly tied to the video]

For example, a series of clips that I shot at the park might be tagged:
vj.asset
sz.640
cdc.mjpeg
smls
set:momo_park

WHY:
By creating our own unified network of tags, we can find the content we want on any existing or future service that uses tags, without having to reinvent the wheel each time. For example, archive.org has ready-to-use VJ clips on it, but a search for 'VJ' brings up all kinds of things to wade through. As this collection grows, it will be harder and harder to find what we want.

With a system like this in place, you could subscribe to a del.icio.us feed for "vj.asset+cdc.mjpeg+sz.640" and have a videocast of ready-to-use full-size vj clips delivered to your computer every day.

I would like to start hosting content pools - have a theme for the month and challenge VJs to shoot/create footage that fits the theme, and then post mixes of their performances with the public footage. At the end of each month, everyone would have a nice big pool of clips on a particular topic. Today, I ran across Jim Olson's PIL project - http://www.navigammatron.org/pil/index.htm, which is quite similar.

HOW:
I need your feedback. The tag set will only work if it's applicable, useful, and adopted by the early runners: ie vjcentral peeps.
Please tell me about more tags we could use, respellings for tags we already have, etc.

Thanks for your input!

[LEVLHED]

it is a good idea

consider opening a domain that lists all the tags and can act as a reference? or I suppose that all could be hosted on vjc (once we get it ironed out)

[trotskythecat]

Sure thing - I'm planning on opening up an info/listing page at pool.la-va.org (The Lava Pool) once I have the tag listing improved a bit. I could always buy a domain and redirect it there - and I'd love to get it listed somewhere on VJCentral here.

Any suggestions for improving the tag system?

[LEVLHED]

stick to 2 & 3 character tags?
its all pretty straight foward really. its all about reaching critical mass where most people use it!

[Meierhans]

I would like to add that most of my clips are 640*360 (half 720p). So the "sz." tag should be "sz.640_360" or "sz.640x360" or "sz.640*360" or "sz.640.360"??

[trotskythecat]

levlhed: regarding the 2-3 character tags - I agree that shorter is better, but I want to keep a certain level of readability, as well. Do you have a suggestion for terms such as seamless?

Meierhans: I see your dilemma. As far as your suggestions, I like sz.640_360 the best. I do worry that it starts to be a bit complicated at that point, though - with all sorts of screen ratios giving us an overwhelming amount of size tags. Perhaps the size should just refer to the largest dimension, as a way to tell the user if they are getting half-res, full-res, or hd-res clips. This would keep things reasonably simple.

what do you think?

[alangeering]

With broadcast clips if you give one number its often vertical resolution (number of lines) as this the more crucial value (on old TV anyway).

I would suggest having sz.h.640 and s.v.480 or szv.640

or whatever.

[sleepytom]

why bother with the sz. just go with 640x480 or whatever - its so clearly the resolution that the sz. prefix is mearly a waste of space

[trotskythecat]

great idea, sleepytom - but there's one problem I see with that method. Let's say I do a search for clips including the tag 640x480 - I would miss all of meierhans' 640x360 clips, and maybe someone else's 640x160 (three strips) clips. All of these clips might be useful for my project.

how about listing the tags separately. ie: my tags might be
vj.asset
seamless
640
480

That way, if I need a width of 640 but the height doesn't matter, I can just search for 640.

[alangeering]

Sorry, I wasn't clear, I was suggesting seperate horizontal and vertical tags too (the "h" and "v")

[PiedPiper]

i sually name my clips 6x4 for 640x 480 res, or 3x2 for 320 by 240,

or even 7x5 for 720x576

not a huige change but i find with only these 3 chars i can easily know what res my clips are in.


everything else looks like a great idea.

PP.

[fALk]

didn?t we learn from delicious that a unified tagging system is never going to work as everyone always will find a new tag that could fit a description - that why you have about two million tags on delicious and I would say at least one million of them are equal. nice idea but has failed numerous times before - the videoblogger wanted to introduce a unified tagging system as well about 3 month ago and the resulting debate showed one thing : everyone wants their own tags and its good like this. on delicious there is already the vj tag and vlog tag and that should be sufficient. I was one backing a unified tag system before but have understood the problems with such a beast and do believe that tagging is up to the tagger - some tags will be strong but labeling all movies with their respective size will do - nothing. That should be a problem of the aggregator software as this information is already in the file and does not need manual add on.

[alangeering]

is there no "namespace" arrangement as you should use in XML?

i.e. you can set up a system of tags with it's own namespace so that it doesn't clash.

You then can write translation documents if mroe than one popular standard appears.

I'm not used to this tagging stuff, all I know is from XML databases and RSS.

[trotskythecat]

falk - I see your point, let me offer a rebuttal.

We are talking about defining a much smaller system here. del.icio.us is great for what it is - tagging everything in the world. When it comes to vj clips, and content in particular, there are really only a few things we need to know.

We want to know that it's licensed for sampling in our own work.
We want to know the resolution so that it matches our current content.
We want to know if it's been encoded in a way that matches our current workflow.

It's true that this system could become very complicated - but it doesn't have to be. Just a small number of common tags can make it a lot easier to find content.

And finally, what's the harm?
Worst case scenario: we can never agree on certain tags, the system becomes bloated and redundant, and it's still just as hard to find the content we want.
Best case scenario: we all upload content with a few simple tags and start creating pools of content, remix contests, etc - and the tag system grows little by little as we see new opportunities and learn from past mistakes.

[PiedPiper]

HMmm How about a small fast application that would tell you most of the available information??

such an application could easily tell you such information as
- codec
- resolution
- length
- possibly if it loops seamlessly or not
- weather it has audio...

Such an application could be used standalone or as a file renaming tool...

the only thing it couldn't do would be get info on the copyright status of the clip, and some idea of the content.
and if it's a asset or a mix, tho i dare say the length of a file would be a pretty indicator of this.

At least with an application to rename / append this info we would be garunteed of the same tags for everyone who used the app.

PP.

[trotskythecat]

true - certainly once we have some agreement on the tags this should be possible. OurMedia has a cross-platform program that assists in uploading content to archive.org and getting it properly tagged, cc-licensed, etc.

for sizes - how about:
qvga for 320x240 or similar
vga for 640x480 or similar
svga for 800x600 or similar

etc.

There's a full listing at:
http://www.themodwiki.org/forums/viewtopic.php?t=84

This covers sizes from 160x120 all the way up to 1920x1080.

If meierhans were to upload clips at 640x360, these would be tagged as vga since they would fit in just fine with my 640x480 clips.

more thoughts? I'm enjoying all the conversation on this topic - I hope I'm not dominating things too terribly :)

[VJDV]

Hi,
Can someone please advise on the best site or describe here how to add tags to content?

I am completely new to the idea of tags so would appreciate advice, so I can adopt these tags for my content at VJDV.com (http://www.vjdv.com).

Or should I wait until the standard is refined?

Many thanks.

[ender]

OK this is overkill but there are already existing standards like MXF and Mpeg-7

http://www.broadcastpapers.com/sigdis/Snell&WilcoxMXF01.htm

[VJDV]

Having a quick read it seems MXF & AAF don't really fit the tag model used for searching internet content. They seem more suited to wrapping up media files to transfer to other systems so that they can be read & understood.

[trotskythecat]

Hey VJDV - the idea behind the tags is to find videos through online services. If people are reading your blog (http://vjdv.libsyn.com/) then they will already have the info they need about your files, since you list them along with the videos. You would use the tags if you put your videos up on services like del.icio.us (http://del.icio.us), archive.org (http://www.archive.org) or mefeedia. (http://www.mefeedia.com)

I will be demonstrating the usefulness of these tags very soon, once we start getting some submissions for the NYE 2005 Content Challenge (http://www.vjforums.com/showthread.php?threadid=13869).

[VJDV]

Cheers for the information. I think I understand a little more.