Pirating

[Meeks]

I'm not sure if there already is a thread on this subject somewhere on this message board, but...

What do most of you think and feel about pirating copywritten footage?

Do you do it often?

Why do you/don't you do it?

Are there any instances where you do pirate footage?

Are there any secrets of the trade to get away with it?

I ask this because most of my inspiration comes from ideas of (copywritten) footage i've seen here and there. For obvious reasons I don't necessarily "steal" footage, but I do often take clips to throw into my loops.

I just want to see how most of the community regards this issue.

[djnada]

Yes, there are lots of threads on this topic. I prefer to go with original content. But many VJs out there don't mind using copyrighted footage. The Prelinger archives is good, 'cause its all royalty free downloads, public domain, as it were. The Andy Warhol method is to alter content sufficiently enough to call it your own. He won the case against Campell's soup. That being said, enough altering of footage is a somewhat subjective call. Again, I feel that original content reflects well on the artist and is a good way to go.

[littlecatalyst]

this thread should be moved to Ethics not general chat....
Meeks you ought to look around there a bit if you are interested in that question.....

but bottom line:
most people against/for Copyright still dont think its kewel to steal from other VJs.... many people dont mind their stuff being remixed... P2P stealing music and hollywood movies has nothing to do with VJC. really read everyones opinion on it in the multipl ethreads there already are

[Meeks]

LOL,

Okay, I really don't want to get on the wrong foot here with you Little Catalyst, but I just want to let you know that I am new to this forum and I haven't quite managed to adjust myself to "searching for other peoples opinions on this subject."

Beleive me I would have, if I knew I could have.

So thanks...

At the same time, I'm not talking about stealing other VJ's footage. I'm talking about ripping a DVD and mixing scenes from an Anime, or Porno, that obviously has copywrites behind it... And if you don't think that has anything to do with VJ'ing, then I guess I should be studying law or something.

DJNADA, thanks for your input. Do you have a link to any info on the Andy Warhol case? Or even perhaps any info on VJ's who have been caught using copywritten footage?

I, ofcourse, wish I could manage to porvide my own original footage. However, as it stands it will be awhile before I can accomplish anything like that... So, in the mean time, I think i'll be forced to rip some DVD's. =)

[kallisti]

a lot of this stuff is open to interpretation of fair use and satire. the warhol case is an example of fair use, taking something from someone else, put in another context with a different intent. it's kind of like a remix of a song..

a lot of vjs are into original content, there's another camp that's more dedicated to "sampling".. and i say sampling not pirating. pirating is downloading movies off a torrent, sampling is taking a small chunk and using that in a visual remix. i am sampler, but by the time i am done with my clip, it is almost totally unrecognizable from the original source. i don't feel as though sampling is theft if done creatively, and to top it off, i have had a lot of people come up to me asking "what the hell was that" and i tell them that clip x was from movie x, and they should definitely check it out.. i know dozens of people who come back the next month telling me that they rented/bought movie x becuase of my recommendation... exposing more people to obscure movies doesn't hurt the copyright owners, hell i'm promoting their works for them!.. hell they should pay me to sample their movies!

if you're not going to re-work the sample into something new, you're basically the visual equivalent of a cover band.

as far as people getting caught and sued, i haven't heard of one. most vj's aren't making enough money doing what they do , to have some corporation waste money on lawyers to go after them. and chances are there would be a backlash against said corporation for doing so. not to mention that such publicity would only help a vj... much like negativland getting more publicity by getting sued by u2... also consider that those corporations have bigger issues to deal with, like bootleg dvd's and filesharing piracy to deal with.

don't be lazy, just playing random movie clips... make something new... be creative...

[Kyle]

Originally posted by Meeks


I ask this because most of my inspiration comes from ideas of (copywritten) footage i've seen here and there. For obvious reasons I don't necessarily "steal" footage, but I do often take clips to throw into my loops.

I just want to see how most of the community regards this issue.

A little bit off topic but besides anime and porn you could also derive inspiration from other vjs. Check out some loop servers where you can download vj loops. Some of them let you use the loops in your sets. For example Resolume Footage Link (http://www.resolume.com/footage/index.php)

Good luck:)

[Kyle]

Originally posted by littlecatalyst
this thread should be moved to Ethics not general chat....


Moved:D

[littlecatalyst]

Originally posted by Meeks
I'm not talking about stealing other VJ's footage. I'm talking about ripping a DVD and mixing scenes from an Anime, or Porno, that obviously has copywrites behind it... And if you don't think that has anything to do with VJ'ing, then I guess I should be studying law or something.
meeks... i am a thief so you dont have to worry about wheteher iu think it has anything to do with VJ or not (in fact you ought not to care what i or anyone thinks anyway...) in fact if you do a search for "top 100" you will find an (old) thread that lists people's favorite things to sample..... very interesting reaidng if you plan on stealing images (sampling... whatevah)
Originally posted by Meeks
Or even perhaps any info on VJ's who have been caught using copywritten footage? dont think any VJ has been sued yet for this..... really how much money are you making that it would be worth anyone's while... if you do however put out a dvd with other peoples images you are asking for it..... (and many people dont mind their ((older)) footage being sampled by other VJs in live sets

Originally posted by Meeks
I, ofcourse, wish I could manage to porvide my own original footage. However, as it stands it will be awhile before I can accomplish anything like that... So, in the mean time, I think i'll be forced to rip some DVD's. =) its easier than you think... grab a camera shoot stuff... cut it into loops, you can even get lots of VJsofts to play loops (many are free) also poor-mans DIY techniques for making imaery rock (if you are not vesed in after effects....) and stuff like isadora can make any clip you shot yourself look nice... (oh oh flamebait....) you can do it meeks

not to say that there isnt a value to the smapled image... not at all...

....and the other thread you want to search out is "cliches" so as not to re-invent the reinvention of the wheel... but even if all you are oding is mashing up animes and porn as you suggested, above all else, have some fun, right?

[duffbeerdragon]

Basicly if you make any money off it it's meant to be all your own work,

in practice of course there will be nights when maybe you'll put some DVD on that is bought in, or burned from downloads but nicking other people's stuff all depends -

like if you show clips from some major multimillion dollar movie it won't make much difference to any royalties they would have gotten in from that, but using someone's stuff when they aren't making anything from it can never be right or in any way ok.

Common sense. Same with music.

[holly]

The Andy Warhol method is to alter content sufficiently enough to call it your own. He won the case against Campell's soup. Warhol did NOT get away with it, Nadada. There were dozens of cases where Warhol got sued and lost:
http://www.nga.gov/education/classroom/self_portraits/img/img_warhol_soupcan_th.jpg
Campbells sued for trademark infringement and lost: the courts decided there was such a different USE/purpose of "soup in a can" and "painted art on canvas" that no housewife shopping in the supermarket would mistake a Warhol for soup and would never buy one by mistake (trademark). There was no issue of Warhol "altering the original logo enough". That wasn't even a factor in that trial.

HOWEVER, almost everytime Warhol was sued by another artist (usually a photographer) over using photos of flowers, Jackie Kennedy, etc, he LOST or settled out of court. It didn't matter how much he painted over the original image or how he altared the colors with silkscreens. Art is not soup. Art is art, and stealing from another artist is going to leave you open to liability.

The real factors that will get you sued are based on how much money your art is making (Warhol sold mugs and calendars, shameless whore) and how litigious the copyright holder is....
http://www.artland.co.uk/WarholJackie1964KW826.jpg

The Warhol Foundation also happens to be one of the MOST litigious estates and has sued countless fans, movies, artists for even showing a Warhol in the background (Terry Gilliam was sued for showing a xerox of Warhol's Last Supper on a wall in 12 MONKEYS).

The Warhol Defense will NOT save you. He lost most of his cases against other artists, and his own estate will sue your ass in a NY minute for any perceived infringement. Warhol is NOT the posterchild for copyleft-ism.

[many2]

Thanks Holly for the Warhol info : some partners on the project I am working on were asking questions about this exact subject yesterday and I had no idea how Warhol managed to use copyrighted and even trademarked material as a source for his artwork. Do you have any suggestion if I'd wanted to learn more about this ?

[karl]

Originally posted by kallisti
if you're not going to re-work the sample into something new, you're basically the visual equivalent of a cover band.


It might not be a good legal defence but i was kinda caught by the idea of being a 'cover band'. I mean when I sample, and I do a lot, I actually mess up and destroy the helpless artwork in total disregard of the poor unknowing artist's original intent. You could say I make a mockery out of it, just as many really really bad cover bands could tear up and utterly french-fuck the original song.

So what would the judge say if I replied to the accusation of stealing with:

"Your honour, i was just trying to play the dvd, but i messed it up..."

???

[holly]

Originally posted by many2
Thanks Holly for the Warhol info.... Do you have any suggestion if I'd wanted to learn more about this ?
Google "Warhol sued" and you will see so many items about the Warhol foundation suing other people... even a fanboy who had an unofficial website honoring him.

The first case where Warhol lost was a female photographer who shot flowers. I forget her name, but it opened the door for everyone he stole from to sue, and they did. A lot were settled out of court once he knew he would lose. Generally the terms were based on how much the photos would have been licensed for (had Warhol gotten the rights), and how much he'd made on their images.... It wasn't millions of dollars. The courts generally don't allow artists to claim grievance or stress or any of that sort of thing. Reputation maybe, but Warhol didn't really make contraversial art towards the end, just portraits and silkscreens. They treated it as if he'd just failed to get the rights.

[Stuart]

cover band
apples and oranges.

You and I could go into a studio and re-record the entire beetles catalog and sell the records without permission any prior permission. The original authors would get publishing rights but the rest would be ours. No problem. It is legal in a musical sense because you are not reproducing an original performance. When you take an original performance and use it (sampling) without permission then you get into trouble.

[littlecatalyst]

Originally posted by Stuart
an original performance. When you take an original performance and use it (sampling) without permission then you get Originally posted by Stuart
an original performance. When you take an original performance and use it (sampling) without permission then you get Originally posted by Stuart
an original performance. When you take an original performance and use it (sampling) without permission then you get http://www.wbenjamin.org/WB.1940.jpg

[holly]

Nice one Lil'Cat!
:D

[seex]

sometimes you have to sample, there are vj practices that can not do with out it. If you want to coment on a curent political subject its almost a must...

[littlecatalyst]

thanks holly! (wasn't too sure if my sense oh humour was apparent or not)

its never a must!

u can always do something freehand even if its about breznev, smosa, buish et cetera... flash animation, whateva... you can do it with blobs and smoodges ifn u wanted to (or actors acting as evil overlords.. shit, even haloween masks and some creative shooting/locations will do)....

of course.. if its an AV or mashup about media rather than about politicians.... then its a little more imperative to use the thing which u are critiquing.. but still not a must (see adbusters they dont sample much but you still get the gist of what theyre about)

at the same time, i sample because i like to.
because i get a giddy sense of glee from fucking up media.
because i like the aesthetic of everything & the kitchen sink, and like being a shit disturber ((none of which are reason to rip off my friends-- but a good reason to bug 'em to let me have stuff to remix)) still, all these being able to explain why i like to do it is still not a justification or moral ethos. fuck that. i do it cause its fun!

[disassembler]

:yep:

Now we're on the same page.

[seex]

Good points, its never a must, but hey... you can say that for almost anything. I was meant to say that sampled footige will never will be the same as original, the fact that it is sampled is what makes it different and uniqe in that sense. There are expressions that can only be adchieved with the use of sampled footige.

For instance a cllip of Bush that was taken from todays news can only be that clip and not a render that looks exacly the same...

[littlecatalyst]

...then again if you render him... you can then morph him into a lizard-alien

(dang. studying maya sure has changed my POV a little)

[KillingFrenzy]

And I still make the equivocation to a DJ.

If I'm playing an 8 hour show at a small club that's making its money off drinks and not off ticket sales, and there are 5 DJs that all just play a bunch of other peoples music in various amounts, then why shouldn't I play a bunch of others peoples movies in various amounts? Nobody gets up on the DJ about that and demands they make their own content, why should I care either?

Would you same guys that want people to shoot all original footage expect the DJ at a French Pop night to record their own french pop music to play?

If the DJ is getting paid to please an audience by selecting choice tracks to play in an intelligent and creative manner, I don't see any problem with a VJ being paid to select choice visual tracks to play. The art of the selector is in and of itself a vocation.

[Stuart]

the fact that it is sampled is what makes it different and uniqe


seems like a contradiction

[seex]

Im only stating that a clip that was brodcasted and seen by many audiences will always have that aura and that this qality can not be atributed to an original clip. The fact that it is taken form a known piece gives it a nother qality one that is original when compared to a home made original clip.

for instance, mona lisa will always be looked and anylized trough her mystic smile, trough time it was so disscused it became an ICON. now we can debate wether that is good or bad, but for instance Marcel Duchamp used this ICON, sampled the painting and aded a mustache. Now if that mustache was added to a portrait of someone X it wuld not have the same effect.

[holly]

Sampling has it's use outside politics too. Sometimes there is a theme (like the recent Arabian Nights (http://www.vjforums.com/showthread.php?threadid=10733&highlight=Arabian) etc.... Halloween is another that should be obvious to use samples. Horror movies and classic cartoons are part of what halloween is, so using samples are practically mandatory.... I'm trying to sample old Fosse musical numbers (but I'm a bit lazy). Love the way they look "as is": the costumes, the choreography. Do a little KORG scratchy on em and they live again! There's definitely some coolness points scored for obscure/vintage samples. I'm not the media masher that Lil'Cat is, but I like throwing in oldstyle glamor. It's just fun.

I don't get the "I oblitorated the original image with at least 3 filters so it is unrecognizable" excuse. I mean, has anyone ever posted an example of this? Take a single frame and show what it looks like when you're done and it is "unrecognizable"? I think the whole point of sampling is to own it, to scratch it, to PLAY it. James Brown became cooler after sampling. If he's so filtered as to be unrecognizable, it could've been a duck or a carhorn. What's cool about that?

The other thing I don't get is the urge to remove the logo from the tv station you vhsed it from. It's like you're sampling but pretending to be the inventor of it. The first person clever enough to use it.... Well, you're not, because it was just on channel 14 the other day.... I'd think the goal would be to have MORE logos than anyone else to prove what an eclectic and media savy sampler you are! No one is safe, bwaha, etc. The other obvious thing is to do your own logobug and lampoon the whole idea of watching television.

I don't watch television tho. I buy the dvd and rip it. If it's letter boxed I'll resize and render out a dvd of just the scene I want. Aside from Prellinger I've paid for everything I've sampled. (Besides NetFlix) there's no other way to get the best quality other than to just buy it (I don't think having a dvd receipt will save me from a lawsuit). Anyway, if a sample is clever/cool/bizarre enough to score points I want to honor it, not obscure it under a hundred pixily fx.

[littlecatalyst]

Originally posted by seex
Marcel Duchamp used this ICON, sampled the painting and aded a mustache. Now if that mustache was added to a portrait of someone X it wuld not have the same effect.
...sure but you forgot the most important part of what duscham did, it want the mustache it was his soving why she had such an alluring smile... that's why he wrote L.H.O.Q. at the bottom (if you speak french you know what elle a chaud que means, heh heh heh)

[littlecatalyst]

Originally posted by holly
so using samples are practically mandatory.... I'm trying to sample old Fosse musical numbers (but I'm a bit lazy). Love the way they look "as is": the costumes, the choreography. Do a little KORG scratchy on em and they live again! There's definitely some coolness points scored for obscure/vintage samples.
ooooh! i loooove using smaples from Sweet Charity (heard its reboroadwayed, phffeh) the campyness of it, the luighting, the choregoraphy!!!! LOVE IT!

[sketchyj]

if you are new to VJing of course you are going to rely heavily on clips ripped from DVDs a lot. Stay away from movies that are too mainstream and go for campy, obscure films and you will impress them a lot more. It's not easy coming up with hundreds of clips for a gig when you are just starting out, so just concentrate on getting good ones and programming them creatively into your VJ application. I'm pretty new at gigging, and i'm realizing that the content i create from scratch using After Effects actually does look so much cooler than any of my ripped clips. I don't have enough original content yet to fill up 3 hours at the gig, so i'm still using ripped material somewhat, and that's OK too. Some of my favorite copyrighted clips come from movies like Xanadu, Reefer Madness, Anime, and classic cartoons from the early days of animation. The best material i have though are the jpegs that i have animated myself...i'm a lot more enthusiastic about using them than anything i've ripped, not just because they are my own but because the more i create them the better they come out....now i'm kind of bummed about having to use DVD clips because they feel more like filler, not that impressive. Also, i have about 220 DVDs in my collection and when i go to the video store i find that there's nothing i want. Most of the usable clips in my collection have already been mined out...
so don't think twice about it, rip what you want to and when you get tired of the same old thing, start building your original content library..it won't happen overnight. Sometimes i can work all day and only come out with 8 or 10 one second original clips, but keep on doing what you can as time allows and it is really worth the effort.

p.s. i hate when people tell newcomers to look up topics on old threads...so what if it has all been discussed before, if it bothers someone they don't have to contribute comments to the thread. New people want real live conversations about their questions, and sometimes old topics can generate new and interesting discussions and opinions if people will allow these threads to exist without lecturing the person on looking up old opinions. Once i asked a really simple codec question and got several replies instructing me to research the topic, when it would have been so much faster and easier for everyone to just state the answer to my question in a few short words. People would rather type a dissertation on what i'm doing wrong by posting the question.

[holly]

Well, actually Sketch, if you'd read my three-years-old post on this topic you would already know my opinion about telling newbees to look up the ORIGINAL answers which are gospel and immutable due to the lack of innovation or change in our industry....

:moon: :lol:

[sketchyj]

thank you holly. enough with the bean counting and worrying about if someone posted something exactly as they should. Once i told a story about my mom in general chat and sure enough people had their panties in a bunch because it had nothing to do with VJing. I've had bosses who were so anal like that, worrying about using the wrong color pen or adding red folders into a file where all the others are manilla. Sometimes posts start out on one subject and veer into some other topic....people then start suggesting they start a new thread with the current topic. Who cares?? What's the point? Are they tagging and organizing these threads for archiving them at a congressional hearing someday? Ever see the movie American Psycho? That is the type of guy i would imagine caring about such things. His moisturizers and hygiene products were laid out in a perfect array that he planned carefully and maintained with a passion. All the labels turned outward to facilitate access to each product in careful succession. LOL it's nutty.

[littlecatalyst]

well i hate to be so rude as to suggest anyone read an old thread.. but you know, if you looked at something like this (http://www.vjforums.com/showthread.php?threadid=1613) or this (http://www.vjforums.com/showthread.php?threadid=4959) or you would defintely gain something on people's feelings on i mean recontexturalizing and recycling imagery, specifically in your VJ set. also if'n one were to check out some *previous threads* they might also glean some interesting perspectives (http://www.vjforums.com/showthread.php?threadid=2066) as well as some dope tools (http://www.vjforums.com/showthread.php?threadid=1539) even a few good setlists (http://www.vjforums.com/showthread.php?threadid=902) fuck yeah. (http://www.vjforums.com/showthread.php?threadid=2735)


i mean its not like youre text/IM/chating with everyoneon the forum, its not really real-time conversation, so getting some background may be enriching for several reasons....

...and besides.... if you want to know about codecs, i would much rather trust a whole complete thread than just shouting out for anyone to tell you what they think. seriously, if you read a thread and a whole bunch of (old timers) people say yeah that one is good.... i think you got something to go with. maybe its just me, but if i'm looking for the right codec there are defintely people's opinions here from previous threads that i would trust.

..then again i don't mind people telling me to rtfm, sometimes its good

[Stuart]

the analogy from DJ to VJ is flawed.

In theory, and yeah it's a big leap, when a DJ plays a record the author of that piece gets compensated via publishing royalties. Now, the process of how that fee gets approxiamted is somewhat flawed but it's the best we got and at least there is a channel for compensation. As such, playing records is perfectly legal and folks who made those records are universally happy for you to do so.

When you play part of a ripped video in the same environment there is no path to compensation for the original artist. That's why they get cranky about it and that's why it's not legal to do so.




if you are new to VJing of course you are going to rely heavily on clips ripped from DVDs a lot

my first gig was 100% original content

[sketchyj]

littlecatalyst thats all probably true, i spose...i guess it's cool to let newbies know that the resources are there for them....i just don't prefer using vjf as an archive and i don't think 99% of newcomers want to or know how to either. wasn't trying to rip you or whoever suggested it a new hole, i didn't even notice who said it...
i just wanted to rant some for the sake of those who want to always be policing posts, i myself have suggested certain articles to read on VJC for newbies who ask broad questions to which the answer requires an in depth read.
but if someone is asking should i use cinepak or indeo 5.1 in arkaos why not just type one word or the other? this particular thread to me is completely valid because the person asking the question is getting new comments from the people who are on the forum today, comments which are no doubt different and mean more than reading someone elses old conversations

stuart that is great that you could do that at your first gig, everyone should be so ambitious and knowledgeable as you were starting out....however, the reality is that most new VJs are winging it, figuring things out, and using copyrighted clips in my view is a natural stage in the progression towards development as a full fledged VJ/producer...
the argument that the original performer/actor/director, etc is being denied fair pay by using a few seconds of their movie for a VJ performance is laughable to me. It sounds good in theory but if the movie industry thought they could make an extra dollar from licensing various quick clips for VJ use, they would find some way to facilitate a way to grab those extra dollars. They ignore us because what we are doing is akin to a fly on an elephants ass as they say. People are not skipping going to movies or renting dvds because they saw a flash of that movie at a VJ performance. It doesn't affect anything, it's like dust in the wind.

[holly]

Sampling is NOT the same as pirating. The men in black are currently aiming their laser eyes at Pirates. It's estimated that tens of billions are lost each year because of mostly Chinese (and a few other East Asian countries) video pirates. Samplidelic VJs who grab seconds-long clips to play in clubs are so NOT a concern right now..., maybe not ever. It's debatable whether US courts would say that VJs are cutting into the business of the movie industry.

I didn't sample for over a year when I started -- just my own stuff. Then I found a few good things on Prellinger (60's retro, but wow you really have to look for a while) that got a good response from people, especially women in da haus. Now I try to be open minded, but spending hours ripping and tying up my harddrive just to get a few seconds??? It's not worth it. Unless it's a decently long scene that is insane (like from a musical) it's not worth the effort. I get better results from my own stuff (like Sketchy sez).

But PLEASE! When you sample avoid the most boring cliches:

Anime -- please stop. No tenticle sex. No boiling flesh. no bionicbreasts. Honestly, when you VJ anime you are VJing only to the 15 year old boys in the room. Anime's not universal, sad to say. It's generally not interesting AT ALL to punters. Yes I have a large anime collection but I don't sample from it -- it comes across as fanboy childishness. Try not to ubergeek and pop pimples during your set. We have a VJ reputation of coolness to maintain. Don't make us all look like nerds.

[sketchyj]

VJing anime IS so 1997, i've been to raves where they just played a whole anime movie back then...
there are a few cool tidbits to be had though...last gig i used a part from ghost in the shell innocence where a beautiful geisha girl looks up and her face pops open revealing the robotics underneath....it's about a 1 second clip and i thought it looked cool to beatmatch it for a quick minute at the show using RGB effect

[KillingFrenzy]

I don't think my analogy was flawed, I was talking more about the artistic context vs. the legal. My arguement is about the artistic equivalency, not the legal.

On the legal tip.
No, it isn't legal...
BUT I'd say that 90% of the gigs that I play are not being captured in any manner by ASCAP either. That means that for 10% of the shows, there's actually something different going on legally between me and the DJ.

I also make the arguement that this is a case where the only way to get an equivalent of ASCAP is to just go out and keep doing what we're doing, which will hasten the invention of such a system. People didn't invent the music industry system and then allow people to DJ.
As for the industry.
Right now, there's a gigantic copyright violation going on every moment. Starting with the local video store, and moving into the modern era with companies like Netflix and Blockbuster online. I don't see the difference between charging $4 at the door for a 100 person showing of a DVD, then showing the DVD individually to 100 people. Yet, this is never prosecuted by the corporations because they reap so much money off the whole process.

In terms of legality, probably the biggest violation that most VJs could get busted for would be the ownership of 1000's of files and discs of pirated content. If anybody wanted to really bust a VJ, they'd just confiscate their hard-drive and nail them, not try and arrest them for an event.

[Stuart]

yeah, we are off the radar for hollywood for sure. There is not money to be squeezed and certainly the context is radically different enough not to make them squirm. However, what about ripping clips from fellow content producers in this arena without permission? Strikes a little closer to home, no?


avoid the most boring cliches

can I add porn to your list? Especially solarized porn?

[cypod]

Lets deconstruct the word VJ = Video Jockey and is a derived from those people on MTV in the eighties who played videos in the same way that a DJ = Disc Jockey plays music. Obviously the DJ isn't playing playing guitar, base and drum all at the same time he/she is spinning a recording of the music. Lots of DJ's play music that they did not create, every now and then one gets busted like that one in Italy, but for the most part it is accepted that the DJ was going to play other peoples music.
I think that this issue is actually a giant identity crisis for the VJ community, since there are a lot of video producers that VJ in order to screen their original content. And many of those producers are also trying to make money by selling loops of content that other VJ's can by and assumedly use in their sets. So the question of pirating really comes down to whether the club your in has paid to licenses a VJ set.
If I am going to screen my original content then I take off the VJ hat and put on the mutlimedia performer title. While my original content is playing I also switch from the stand up rave/club venue to the sit down all eyes focussed screen stage type of place. I like doing both, a VJ set for me is much freer to improvise and take chances.

With that said, please support the artists. Buy there content even if you think you could steal it.

p.s. As far as solarizing porno, the only place that would go over would be a leather bar, except they might not want it solarized.

[Meeks]

Thanks guys for all the info.

[videoteque]

In a certain way, if we sample movies, we are promoting them, so we should get paid for doing it...

[dansmachine]

For me sampling can be an artistic choice. But that's not what I wanted to discuss about right now:

For my current project I have tried to legalize all sampled content, and after 6 hours of phoning around I gave up. It's almost impossible to get sample-clearance. Almost because of course, if I would spend more time for this purpose than time creating the installation, maybe I would be able to collect all the addresses of the legal owners. We're talking thousands of samples coming from hundreds of movies. Of all these movies it's totally unclear who's the owner of the rights in general, in my country, who wrote which line of text and who made exactly which music at every moment etc etc.

In other words, if there would be one central organisation who takes care of these issues it would be possible to legalize content, now it's simply too hard.

I wonder how for example Eboman has arranged it (Grand Theft Audio, or his past works).

[joeproper]

shed the shackles ,why operate in a world of limited benefit?

[fluchtpunkt]

Originally posted by Meeks
What do most of you think and feel about pirating copywritten footage?
I ask this because most of my inspiration comes from ideas of (copywritten) footage i've seen here and there. For obvious reasons I don't necessarily "steal" footage, but I do often take clips to throw into my loops.
I just want to see how most of the community regards this issue.

not to contradict anything that has already been said,
...or to attack any shy samplers,
...and assuming with 'pirating' you mean 'sampling'


if you feel like you need to ask our permission, then you ain't no pirate!

...

if you sample for the 'right' reasons, you shouldn't/wouldn't doubt it's value.

...




hope that makes sense to you.

[Meeks]

Originally posted by holly
Sampling has it's use outside politics too. Sometimes there is a theme (like the recent Arabian Nights (http://www.vjforums.com/showthread.php?threadid=10733&highlight=Arabian) etc.... Halloween is another that should be obvious to use samples. Horror movies and classic cartoons are part of what halloween is, so using samples are practically mandatory.... I'm trying to sample old Fosse musical numbers (but I'm a bit lazy). Love the way they look "as is": the costumes, the choreography. Do a little KORG scratchy on em and they live again! There's definitely some coolness points scored for obscure/vintage samples. I'm not the media masher that Lil'Cat is, but I like throwing in oldstyle glamor. It's just fun.

I don't get the "I oblitorated the original image with at least 3 filters so it is unrecognizable" excuse. I mean, has anyone ever posted an example of this? Take a single frame and show what it looks like when you're done and it is "unrecognizable"? I think the whole point of sampling is to own it, to scratch it, to PLAY it. James Brown became cooler after sampling. If he's so filtered as to be unrecognizable, it could've been a duck or a carhorn. What's cool about that?

The other thing I don't get is the urge to remove the logo from the tv station you vhsed it from. It's like you're sampling but pretending to be the inventor of it. The first person clever enough to use it.... Well, you're not, because it was just on channel 14 the other day.... I'd think the goal would be to have MORE logos than anyone else to prove what an eclectic and media savy sampler you are! No one is safe, bwaha, etc. The other obvious thing is to do your own logobug and lampoon the whole idea of watching television.

I don't watch television tho. I buy the dvd and rip it. If it's letter boxed I'll resize and render out a dvd of just the scene I want. Aside from Prellinger I've paid for everything I've sampled. (Besides NetFlix) there's no other way to get the best quality other than to just buy it (I don't think having a dvd receipt will save me from a lawsuit). Anyway, if a sample is clever/cool/bizarre enough to score points I want to honor it, not obscure it under a hundred pixily fx.

That was an awesome post, and I think your absolutlely right on the money.