Marketfigures for vj app

[karl]

Hi there, I am wondering if there is done any backgrounds and numbers on what the marketing potential for vj apps in general?

I am trying to find some figures on what estimated sold copies, marked trends, etc there is in developing and selling vj apps.

As some of you might know my friend Intrinsic is working with the ideas about a vj app and we wonder what has been done in marketing research that we might have access to.

Any feedback appreciated!

[syzygy]

the problem with asking that kind of question is you are basically saying "hey, vj software developers, we're thinking of competing with you in an already pretty crowded marketplace, could you give us some information to help us do that?"

The VJ scene is friendly, but I wouldn't expect a commercial software developer to hand over that kind of information to a potential competitor...

If you want to suceed with a VJ app, it is going to have to offer something that lots of VJs want that is not available in any other app. My suggestions for market research would be:

* Scour the forums for 'i would like' type discussions - there have been quite a lot of them over the years

* get into a dialogue with your potential future customers and find out what they want

* find a way to reach people who are not in what we consider 'the vj scene' (arkaos seem to do this well - the first VJ app a lot of people experience is arkaos) If you do that, you won't be competing so directly for customers with already established apps

My biggest advice is - don't concentrate on winning market share from existing apps. We all know the VJ market as it stands isn't big enough for anyone to make a fortune selling software into it. Instead, try to find ways to make the market bigger or address a wider market

[johnnylocust]

I would agree you're probably not going to get alot of merketing information from companies themselves. I'd suggest a public, open survey to VJs as to what software, hardware, they use. What features they use. What features they look for. How much do they spend on software, hardware etc. Something that you are going to find is that it is a global market, with tastes and spending habits varying from one region to the next.

Scour the forums for 'i would like' type discussions

That can help, but also could hinder you. As SleepyTom has pointed out many times, alot of people prefer performance and stability over gobs of features, and cluttered interfaces. In my experience, most people who use OpenTZT do so because it's clean and simple to use. The fact that it's free is merely icing on the cake

There's also a massive wealth of information on marketing of software available from the
Association of Shareware Professionals (http://www.asp-shareware.org/). They have some freely available information available, but you have to join to get the nitty-gritty.

[asterix]

Also you've got vjforums.com to give you a rough idea of what the market size looks like (members list) and what countries they come from (language packs etc).
You'll need to research to get your segments (i.e. midi user, open gl etc) then survey to get a rough estimate of demographic (buying habits, segment population, needs wants etc) and then compare yourself to current competition to secure your niche.
At the end of the day it all comes down to price product promotion.

[karl]

Originally posted by syzygy
the problem with asking that kind of question is you are basically saying "hey, vj software developers, we're thinking of competing with you in an already pretty crowded marketplace, could you give us some information to help us do that?"

The VJ scene is friendly, but I wouldn't expect a commercial software developer to hand over that kind of information to a potential competitor...

If you want to suceed with a VJ app, it is going to have to offer something that lots of VJs want that is not available in any other app. My suggestions for market research would be:

* Scour the forums for 'i would like' type discussions - there have been quite a lot of them over the years

* get into a dialogue with your potential future customers and find out what they want


Thats what im trying to do here, i am aware that the real problem is that you guys are both the potentional customers and competitors.


* find a way to reach people who are not in what we consider 'the vj scene' (arkaos seem to do this well - the first VJ app a lot of people experience is arkaos) If you do that, you won't be competing so directly for customers with already established apps

My biggest advice is - don't concentrate on winning market share from existing apps. We all know the VJ market as it stands isn't big enough for anyone to make a fortune selling software into it. Instead, try to find ways to make the market bigger or address a wider market

If the market/scene isnt large enough for the excisting apps its a battle everybody but a few is bound to loose. That is a very good advice, thank you.

[karl]

Originally posted by johnnylocust
I would agree you're probably not going to get alot of merketing information from companies themselves. I'd suggest a public, open survey to VJs as to what software, hardware, they use. What features they use. What features they look for. How much do they spend on software, hardware etc. Something that you are going to find is that it is a global market, with tastes and spending habits varying from one region to the next.

That can help, but also could hinder you. As SleepyTom has pointed out many times, alot of people prefer performance and stability over gobs of features, and cluttered interfaces. In my experience, most people who use OpenTZT do so because it's clean and simple to use. The fact that it's free is merely icing on the cake

There's also a massive wealth of information on marketing of software available from the
Association of Shareware Professionals (http://www.asp-shareware.org/). They have some freely available information available, but you have to join to get the nitty-gritty.

Thanks a lot, im going to check out the Shareware Professionals it seems like a good idea. Thank you for your feedback!

[videoteque]

I think the VJ market grows quickly. But unfortunately software developers suffer the pirate syndrom 99% of people I know have. Hardware-itis. People don't think BMWs are expensive, you can see a lot of them in the streets. Even the Porsche Cayenne (a 100.000? car which needs 20 liters of gas to make 100km) is pretty popular in Italy.

But ask them to buy the software they use, and they will find a good excuse in 0.0001 seconds to not do it. People use cracked shareware that would cost 10$ to legalize and contribute to the creator.

If you want to give yourself a chance to make money, make hardware, something nobody can copy/download.

It's only my point of view though... Maybe there are other markets (outside Spain and Italy) that are different!

[devonmiles]

dont ask potential costumers. just offer something they have never dreamed of and now realized that they need it urgently...

:D

yep, away from kidding, I would say, start dreaming, go beyond the possibilities of the available software,
have a vision, thats what appeals us most, try to figure out something innovative, a new approach, a missing link, that merges fields that seem to have nothing in common, something that is of use not only for vjs but for a wider audience, like lighting industry, djs, installation artists, teachers, etc.

think modular. offer a plattform where modules can be plugged into, concerning the special requirements of the individual user. ( and dont overcharge for the modules like that certain vj software programmer...)
offer an open architecture with easy integration of third party plugins. do a research on hardware interfaces. figure out, how to integrate a wide range of different controllers. go beyond midi/dmx, theres much more to discover.

[vjfader]

Originally posted by videoteque
If you want to give yourself a chance to make money, make hardware, something nobody can copy/download.

Easier said than done, but not impossible.

I doubt you will get any sales figure here, no developer (in their right mind) would make that public here, but it's interesting talking about how big the VJ market is. This determines how much a slice of pie is worth.

[videoteque]

For how much is a sad situation, I think is unfortunately true.

Or you make your software free or near free, or if you expect to sell 1000 copies from a 200? VJ program, I think is a dream.

Or either you invent THE Vj soft that everyone wants to use. Like a VJamp (Winamp for VJs)... Or VJmessenger (messenger with your webcam tweaked by freeframe effects)... ;)

[vjrei]

Many of the answers are basicly part of what came to my mind when I saw your post.

To do a research is very complicated. I think we all want to create some sort of VJ software and that mean we are all unsatisfy with what is in the market out there.

If I was in your position I would do two things first:

1. Find the features everybody need. Midi control is a big one, real time (30 fps) full resolution output (720x480) is another one, and real time effects and layering would be the next one and make that software to run on a portable Mac and PC. Check out Arkaos, Motion Dive Tokio and Modul 8 I would say.

2. Find a way to make it hard to copy like Arkaos does.

Then you will have a product everybody will get.

This would be an investment that may give you some profits, do not quit your job to do it, take it like a very good hobby I would say.

That would be my advice because there is market for a reliable software.

[sketchyj]

I would absolutely kill for a great piece of hardware to replace my laptop altogether, something under $5000, user friendly, with easy to find and use effects, a sturdy scratch platter built in, and most of all something that i can expect not to crash at gigs or have latency problems. A pro video synth comparable to something like a Roland Phantom or Korg Triton. Unfortunately, it will have to be a company with very deep pockets and the infrastructure to successfully engineer such a machine and bring it to market, i think. I really don't get excited about buying more laptops for my rig, but there's not much of an alternative to doing it this way right now. Also, the VJ community is only going to keep growing, and I think that if you want to produce successful software, it needs to be easy to use for newbies, and have an interface that shows what arkaos does (intuitive)...but something that WILL NOT CRASH like Arkaos does so often, and with
1. MORE AND BETTER EFFECTS
2. ABILITY TO SCRATCH and features like bounce, loop etc as resolume does
3. Write something that needs a really high spec system even to run....that utilizes the newest performance video cards...if there was a really cool app that i wanted with new and interesting features but i needed a PCI express system to run it....i would probably think hard about getting a better computer just for the app...
4. The effects i would like to see would be something similar to what you can do with Pinnacle Hollywood FX pro, but in realtime....mapping video to 3D objects easily by dragging and dropping and realtime manipulation of the object movements and even changing object shape on the fly...Arkaos has basic spheres and boxes for this, but im talking about way more interesting and complex objects and lots more parameters to play with.

[vjrei]

sketchyj

For our friend here I forgot to mention the interface, one like MotionDive is great, is in japanese and everybody manages so well.

The hardware you are talking about could be a used Edirol V7 probably. Those are dedicated PCs but I do not see why they have to be so expensive! they cost around $7K each.

Arkaos runs better on a PC than on a Mac people use to say and the interface need some remodeling I think.

Karl: I would take one of those magnetics boards and start to write all the features a VJ soft should have.

Then all the features people needs to reach resolution and realtime control.

Then, all the features people actually use to save you work on functions teh mayority won't see usable.

I think the big challenge is to get realtime full resolution output WITH realtime effects from a MAC and PC even if we need to but a firewire to video converter box. That would be great, later on you can add more features if you want.

[PiedPiper]

THESE NUMBERS ARE TOTAL GUESSES!
Feel free to discuss adjust, complain, tell me to go jump.

Worldwide # of vj's MAX : approx 10,000

Vj's who use software : approx 8,000

V'j's who pay for software : approx 4,000
*note there is a lot free software out there too*

So i reckon at absolute best assuming your get a sale to every vj who buys vj software you have an upper limit of 4,000 sales, across all countries and all languages

Now i figure vj's who buy software probably own 2-3 vj apps, and other compositing, editing, content creation apps, aswell as OS liscences etc.

Now figure of those 4,000 vj's who buy software about 20% will not pay for any of their software and obtain it illegaly. - down to 3,200 now.

Figure 50% of vj's who use 2-3 vj apps will only ever pay for 1 or 2 of those apps. The rest will probably pay for all of their software - good on ya guys!

So my guess is a realistic market cap of between 2,000 and 2,500 liscences - probably what arkaos is close to know.

So if your software is better than most other vj apps, then you have the chance to sell 2,500 liscences.
but if it's only better than 10% of other vj apps out there, then your market size becomes 250 liscences. sadly i dont think the scale is linear, especially given the free applications that are already available.

At bare minimum it would have to equal OpenTZT and neuromixer for standard features, if it has visualisations it will need to come close to winamp.

not to mention MAC vs. PC issues, and marketing, but VJC is a preety good place to start with marketing, you can easily reach 2,000 users here easily enuff. and even if only 10% of them think your software is worth buying, then about 70% of that final 10% will probably buy it.


on the same topic i wonder what apps have the most liscences?

imho from most to least..........

arkaos
resolume
motion dive
video jockey

god knows what would follow?
there are probably 50+ vj apps with less than 100 liscences...


well i wonder if i'm even close here :)

NOTES..
1. PAY for your software, it's the only way it will get better :)

2. Use open source software - if we can raise the level of free apps it will force pro developers to really lift there game in order to get our hard earned $$.

3. New software apps can really take off if they offer something totally new and unique in that feild/genre
instead of refining existing concepts, invent new ones!

phew thats a lot,
-PiedPiper

[karl]

Originally posted by PiedPiper
phew thats a lot

Thanks a lot man, that was enormously helpfull of you. From your make belife figures i would say that making vj-apps is not a good way to get rich :-D but i guess everybody knows that.

Thank you!

[DrEskaton]

I think DONT try and make a clip triggering program with effects. Between Resolume, Arkaos, Grid Pro, VDMX, and the free programs OpenTZT , Neruomixerand MidiVID that market is covered.

There is a lot of room for innovation in a realtime 3d scene based VJ program, especially if you can come up with a really strong performance interface. IMO all the current ones (Pilgrim etc) don't have a very good interface for live performance.

Other areas ripe for innovation are motion based midi control solutions, real time generative clips (l-systems etc) and good solutions for multi screen output.

[videoteque]

Yes, please INNOVATE!!!

I think we also lack some GOOD text/branding/logo application. Maybe something that does better and cheaper than the monster Edirol invented...