AV remixing???

[vjpixylight]

Hey everyone, I have a question for you all...I was wondering how many of you make both electronic music and syncopated visualz?? A while back I posed a question about doing video remixing to the eyecandy list, which generated a big bru-ha about copyrights and ownership of video ect...

Well I still think that doing av remixes of each others material and remixing the music to boot, is a win- win situation

granted, to handle such big files and such, this concept is limited now, but soon everyone will be burning DVDr's the way they do CDr's now

To properly remix an AV file/mix, (I think) all remixing/remixers need to be on the same page

That is they need to be using the same softwares...

That would/could be any number of video editors along with specialized softs to say intergrate a midi sequence into a video editor
an example of this might be ..using (emagic) Logic as the audio sequencer with say VidVox prophet to have the integrated mix of audio and video trigered sequences...

there would be a number of software programs that could have this kind of synbionic relationship...

Like I said it would only matter that the ppl remixing would be on the same page...

So....(everyone yawns), What progs would you all use if av remixing eventually becomes a reality????
:o :) :nod:

[hamageddon]

on wintel platform the most cool tools for av remixing r acid and
vegas from www.sonicfoundry.com, afaik there's no equivalent
on the mac-side, so no crossplattfoming here :(

[vjpixylight]

having midi triger sound and video would be better for remixing and you could always make the midi file then record the audio from it and use it in Acid...the problem with Acid is that everyone and thier brother uses it to make music...:alien:

[zeist]

why is that a problem pixylight?
HUH?

[vjpixylight]

Nothing wrong with it...I would encourage anybody making music to do it, and do it by any means possible...
The program is just a little generic for me...
and once you have a recorded loop/file, it basically stays that sound...it is in other words.. 'static'
with midi control, you can take the midi pattern of the song, and apply your own hardware synths to give it a differnt sound...
I was informed though, that Acid does have a midi sequencer built in so that's cool...

[MoRpH]

I'm actually working on an A/V act @ the momment so am following this thread with interest as I would love to have others remix our material (as long as appropreate credit was given)

Hama, why would you say Vegas is the wintel equivelent of Vidvox??? I'm guess because of its prioprity of audio...... still I think the link here that logic/vidvox can work with midi, does vegas work with midi????

Personally I would prefer to seperate the 2 (audio/video) and remix them seperately but @ the same time cross breeding ideas rather than trying to remix the A/V together as a A/V locked piece.

[vjpixylight]

morph, the AV wouldn't be locked together if it was made in a midi sequencer like Logic...By exchanging logic files, along with the media that it (the sequence) uses, you could inter change audio and video at will...Don't like that midi trigered clip, well I think I will replace it with this clip amd use this midi appeggio on it...get my drift...almost like open GL..

[MoRpH]

Hmmm yeh I get what you mean....... so then maybe MIDIVID???? would be more what you mean but for PC.

[vjpixylight]

Yea midvid would work, does it have alot of midi controlers for FX's? and will it layer very short video clip hits? like for the rhythm
hits on the tune?

[MoRpH]

It actually has both :) not a lot of FX though...... and I wouldn't imagine that the same trigs/FX would work the same from vidvox to midivid.

[vjpixylight]

actually it might be nice to have both midvid and vidvox running on seperate 'puters and be triggering diferent fx's from both via the seqencer...but that would make remixing a bit more complicated...It is nice to have everything on one computer..and all the prgrams working together...:D

[MoRpH]

Yeah you could just send the midi over the lan... hmmmm what was that software called again... midi-on-lan or something.....

[vjpixylight]

you wouldn't even need it set up on a network per say, you just would need a midi matrix box, and only if you use more than 16(midi) channels from the sequencer...(which most of the DJ producers and Live PA's would use ..you can get USB midi matrix boxes with 4 in 4out for pretty cheap these days...

[MoRpH]

Hmmm but if there already networked.... why bother... just install this soft, when I dig it up I'll post a link.

[hamageddon]

Originally posted by MoRpH
Hama, why would you say Vegas is the wintel equivelent of Vidvox??? I'm guess because of its prioprity of audio......
never said anything like that.

still I think the link here that logic/vidvox can work with midi, does vegas work with midi????[/QUOTE]
no but acid does, and Soundforge can recieve midi triggers
i was thinking of an offline edit style, so i would use the
whole sfoundry package

when it comes to midi processing, the type of playback source
doesn't really matter to me, lotsa sequencers beside logics
and i'd still go for my rm1x 4 stuff like that
same thing on the video side: many vj-apps can be controlled
using midi, and not much are available on both platforms
- besides arkaos :D

flowmotion would be cool for that stuff by the time it's availble
for mac too....

[elbows]

Id love it if we could come up with some sort of "common standard" for programing midi etc.

I dont think it will be easy to achieve though, becuase we are all using different software etc.

The midi sequencer & hardware used doesnt really matter, as you can always use midi translator software to morph the midi data to exactly what you need. The problem is that every vj app Ive seen seems to treat midi differently.

For example, heres my current dilemma:

Midi side:
Keyboard, drumpads, sliders, knobs, cubase.

Visual side:
midivid, visualJockey

What I realy need to be doing is making a standard for the way I set midi up to work with visualJockey. Heres some of the options Ive got:

sliders/knobs/midi control cahnge stuff etc can be used to:

scratch avi's, adjust speed, colours, mix, xyz positioning of clips, all special effect parameters, all resource effect parameters, all (forthcoming) 3d parameters.

keyboard/drumpads can be used to:

select avi clip to play
toggle overlays on/off
select which overlay to use
toggle individual efects on/off
toggle any other 0/1 effect options, of which there are lots

So you can see that unless I come up with a design standard then I will quickly end up in a complete mess! I need to define what range of notes onthe keyboard trigger clips, which ones control overlays, and also come up with some standard for what each slider does to each part of the show. Now this is quite an easy mission if I only consider myself, but Im thinking that if allthe work is done, it may be nice if others could benefit from it, especially if we share resources sometime.

Anyone up for helping with this or suggesting common assignments of keys, controllers etc that would be logical?

[MoRpH]

OK cool.... just wondering why the leaning to vegas..... still as I said midivid is more the PC vidvox equivanlent but if I was going to do it as I said I would prolly split them and remix in premiere or something.

[vjpixylight]

I guess there are probably scores of softs that do both audio and video mixing in one program...What I am saying about remixing is:
setting your audio studio up to make music, then fashion the video to plug into your midi sequencer...start treating video clips as another instrument in the bad ass song w/ video your going to make...Maybe this only works with Trance music, I don't know...
The key is to make the audio sampler that you might be using
(via midi) into a audio-video sampler and write your music with AV samples instead of just plain audio samples....Who knows...maybe an entire AV sample disk market might spring up around musicians using AV sample disks???
Vjamm Has it going somewhat, but I think that more and more artists are going to be creating their own full on multimedia shows this way...

Back to AV remixing...
I would like to find the most common approach(standard) as to what software might be the best cross platform, to use to make the AV remixing of other VJ's AV mixes...with out tons of conversions and codec problems...
:) :) :)

[LEVLHED]

Yes, I think this is the "way of the future" too.
Maybe what we really need (for standardization purposes) is a NEW software title that is designed for this purpose specifically?
Although I think the Sonic Foundry line of titles has everything needed (Vegas Video, SoundForge, Acid)
But I understand what you are saying about using midi to make your sampler an "A/V" sampler.

I just saw Hexstatic in Chicago. I'm stunned. Very cool.
He (they?) are doing exactly what you are talking about, short video files that have their actual audio with them or a sound that sounds like it goes w/ the video. Then entire songs are assembled using these A/V samples/loops in breakbeat fashion. The A/V samples are very short, like single beat/hits. I guess thats what ColdCut is doing too.

I'm actually working on developing a new direction for myself that is similar in effect. VCDs with my pre-rendered A/V files(songs) on them, to be played and tweaked in realtime for performance.
I just started messing w/ acid 3.0 again today to hash out some "original" music. http://www.levlhed.com/~levlhed/JumpJumpRun2.mp3
short and sweet for the moment, 1.48mb. Next I'll put video w/ and render to mpeg1 for VCD.

[krezrock]

frrt

[MoRpH]

Originally posted by vjpixylight
write your music with AV samples instead of just plain audio samples....

I am actually doing this now with some new music I am working on... I'm using VJamm (standard) trigged with a midi keyboard and the rest of the audio is coming off another laptop.... personally I think you can only really do part of a track with A/V samples or its going to get to cluttered and may not leave enough scope to reall time tweek.

[vjpixylight]

yea, VJamm is the PC counterpart to VidVox Prophet, and a very worthy app.
and morph your right, samples (wether audio or video or both)
does not a song make...
...but, the sampling is placed into a mix to give it spice and make it look(w/video) like it syncopates w/the music... it is just a small part of the overall mix...
with a standard midi sequencer, you can arrange the song with samples (both audio and video), and make arpeggio's and patterns to trigger the rest of your synths and layer them altogether to make the song...
I think that the hard part of getting it altogether in one sequenced AV mix, would be to mix those layers of midi tracks with video, which is more than just sampled short audio/video clips...
almost like you would need a backing video track to fill in the spots in the song that the AV samples just can't carry...and that is where maybe a few computers running vidvox or vjamm might be needed...after all, sequencers can trigger video clips that can be longer than just short 'hit' type of clips...

In effect, this would be like a sequencer (logic) triggering multiple sound modules or softsynths but in addition to the music soft-synths, there would be video softsynths running on different computers simultanously and with midi time code keeping everything together so it would all syncopate...:)

[MoRpH]

Wow.... a very impressive project there pixy.

For a video backing track I personally would go for maybe a VCD rather than another PC (cheaper, easier to sort) then use a mixer to key your hit clips over the top (luma key only on black) with vjamm outputting black when not playing a clip, although this would mean avoiding black in your hit clips (if you wanted them to cover the bottom layer that is).

But with a VCD like doing a backing track on DAT/CD your locked down to the tempo/input of music/video.....

[LEVLHED]

What about using an external hardware sequencer/sound module, like a Roland MC505?
Then you either assign different tracks for video and audio, or you set up the track to play audio AND video simultaneously. Then one could play/control audio and video from one unit.....with nice knobs....and sliders......and CC messages...

Man, maybe I need to try figuring that out again w/ my 505....
I wish someone would make me a "505 preset" for thier VJ app, so I could just hook up the midi cable and start jammin.

[vjpixylight]

does the 505 send/recieve assignable CC's??
That was the problem I ran into with the MC303...had to get a midi controlerbox by the name of 'Phat Bot' from key fax...
Yea, that would be a viable live option to run a AV-PA...
isn't that want you are wanting to do as well Morph??
you would still need to set up some VJ soft-synths on seperate computers with video output to a hardware mixer, but that would be pretty cool...specially if you are using different VJ-softs together...Nice
:cool:

I am still looking for more of a standard remixable file,
(Roland and Yamaha sequencing is still quite proprietary)
and you need one of those hardware sequencers, to be able to remix other ppl stuff. Also hardware sequencing is still not as dynamic as software sequencing(in my opinion, and therefore not alot of the biggy producers/DJ's are putting out vinyl and CD's using hardware sequencing setups...

I do think that the hardware seqencing for a live AV show would be the ticket tho...

As far as having a video backing track, the VCD or DVD idea would work for sure with luma keying, and you wouldn't neccesarily need the backing track (perhaps a live video feed) to be synced up with midi, (instead, using good manual video mixing to do it)..

Damn, I guess this is why there are more and more cats doing live AV-PA's...
:D

[Ocular]

Max and NATO..... choose your own adventure?


http://www.cycling74.com
http://www.eusocial.com

[MoRpH]

Pfffft who's go the cash...... or wants to buy a mac to do it.... we were talking about multiplatform, so maybe we could build something with PD/GEM (without to many vid functions) but MAX/NATO is not appropriate...

[KillingFrenzy]

Hmm...

I'm as apt as anyone to get snitty about Max/Nato pricing etc... but I think writing it off as innappropriate isn't really fair.
I don't think pricing was mentioned as a limitation here.

I do see what you mean about multi-platform, but several of the above items are not multi-platform and weren't dismissed as such.

In theory, one could write a nice patch for each song of a show, and then perform with a different environment tuned to that song's needs.

As for standardization, I'm rather happy things aren't standardized right now. There's nothing like being in that burgeoning part of an art form where even the tools are so eclectic that they're constantly being reinvented. Choosing your methods and means and defining what you want and how you're going to do it are a challenge, a mystery and a source of constant surprise. I'm happy to be an explorer rather than a map-follower in an exciting new field. It isn't any fun to get lost, but sometimes you stumble onto something pretty profound that clarifies what you were searching for in the first place.

As for the matter at hand, I'll just be happy when all the gear and software will talk to each other properly. I'm not even talking about exchanging configurations, I just want to be able to access any video, any audio, any control method, and any control stream from any other program. The ability to communicate between programs would allow them to function together, instead of always having to use one for one special use or feel, and another for another situation. MIDI is a step in the right direction for most programs and TCIP is sort of there for some. It would be nice with all this media at our fingertips to be able to better define how we want to control it. If we could parse this into some sort of communication/control standard in more useful terms than ranges of data then expression would be that much closer at hand/eye/foot/tongue.

I think I almost went full circle and got that back on topic?

[scientifikent]

right on, KillingFrenzy...

I wouldn't stress being cross-platform as the most important parameter - I would rather see a program that works really well than one that works on all systems. Seriously, mac is best for this stuff anyway.

There are a lot of software programs out there good for doing this type of thing. VJamm, Max/NATO, ArKaos is really nice, Prophet, and I believe MOTU Digital Performer will also map midi to video key frames...

These are good options for doing it live, but one may be able to come up with much more precise mixes when working offline, in Final Cut or Premiere. Same as in music, right? A studio version allows so much more control and complexity than trying to recreate everything live. Look at all the cool music videos coming out - there are effects in there that would be impossible to reproduce live.

So that's why we have DJs. They bring life to the music that other people spend months working on. Why not flip the paradigm? Have a VJ (I say EJ) mixing visual/musical tracks that maybe other people have created, weaving them together into a seamless all night long mix?

The tools are already here - at EJ Enterprises we have some new hardware and software for the next step in live visual performance. We have a MIDI Turntable retrofit for getting MIDI out of your existing turntables. Then we have software called ScratchTV, which maps that signal onto any digital file of your choosing - for instance a Chemical Brothers video or some Dr. Dre for any hip hop heads out there. ScratchTV is already running on OS X and Windows, with an OS 9 version in development - it allows you to actually scratch and beatmatch video exactly as a DJ does audio. Or you can hook it into Reason or any other MIDI software/hardware to scratch a live laptop set - many more possibilities lie in your imagination.

Check it out at http://www.ejenterprises.tv/ , and let us know what you think! Everyone on this thread has the right idea and is bringing our art into the future. Evolution!

[MoRpH]

OK just got home from the tool concert and am pretty drunk but I'll just post a few quick thoughts and post properly in the morning......

With my post about MAX/NATO...... firstly I thouoght the idea wasn't to have to patch together all sorts of shit to actually make things happen, I thought we were talking high level here... ofcourse it could be done in MAX/NATO (the dev team would have us believe that the universe was created in MAX...pffffft). ALso I'm sorrt but I have a huge problem with ppl that just write shitty 4 line answers that read "USE MAX/NATO" sorry not good enough.....

As for cross platform I thought that Pixy had expressed the mac side well enough so Iwas contributing to the same concept but on the PC side.... and as long as MAX/NATO have there bullshit MAC stance then they don't cut it (along with the bullshit h4X0r talk)
.................................

To Mr EJ....

Isn't this basically the same thing as final scratch??? or very similar anyway..... as much as the idea of getting nifty with some decks appeals I think just a jogwheel with midi output (wheres that command post hack :p) is going to do just as good and really I don't wanna lug a turntable to a gig.....

THough I can see how it would be useful to DJs that want to incorperate video into what they are doing..... but how many DJs know good video :p

[LEVLHED]

I don't believe that CC is assingable w/ the MC505.
But it does send/receive them for sure.
Thats why I want someone to write a "505 patch preset" for an existing VJ app! So I don't have to figure it all out......

[MoRpH]

ALso just checked your page Mr EJ, those crew one liners are ATTROCIOUS..... I just hope the Jasper V isn't the one I know here in sydney..... lame lame lame....

[LEVLHED]

I agree Morph, it does just look like final scratch expanded to include video. Which IS cool, but just not for me.
I think I'd also prefer a phat (ala CDJ-1000) jog wheel, and maybe not even have it control a video file on a HDD, but just make it play DVD or VCD....
Is that too much to ask?


getting dangerously off topic now.....lets keep it together boys...

[MoRpH]

OK right OT here...... LEV why not just have it be able to control a video sample AKA the hardware video sampler FX that I preposed in the other thread...... trying to get it to work with a solid state media like DVD/VCD is going to be hard due to the sequencial nature of the media..... if you ram it ram based you can loose that..... OK enough drunk jibber jabber i'm off to bed :p

[vjpixylight]

(Seriously, mac is best for this stuff anyway. )
I think a bit of an overstatement here...
when I started getting into making electronic music
6 yeras ago, Macs had relatively nothing for musical software...
Peak was a so so editor, and Pro Tools was (and still is)
priced way to high...(mac software still hasn't gotten out of the proprietary "were better than anything else" mentality...)
I can see be this post, that Mac eliteist's are still wandering around in this world...
I use both Mac and PC because what I don't find in one, I can get in another....Sorry to get off topic, and I don't want a flame war here, but let's start thinking a little more universally, and not with a set a blinders...

It seems that killing frenzy welcomes the idea of proprietary nature, and that standardization is some sort of drones taking part in meaningless activities... that is pure ego driven insanity...
I think that when people work together on creations, then we all get a better product...

That is what this tread is about, finding what ways that we can help and inspire each other through a common source of protcols, and make what we make individually, into something greater than it's parts...
Sorry to bust your balls on this, nothing personal, just my 2 peso's...

[Ocular]

Morph you really take a negative stance on anyone elses point of view, lets talk shop here, not " i don't like what you have to say". As for short answers, i never had time for small talk, please don't lump me in with your so called stereotypes. I guess i shouldn't tell you that i am also black....

As far as software goes, Max is really simple. The only reason I work on a mac, is because I have one, therefore I don't have any reason to discuss PC apps. I am just giving my point of view.

The reason I think MAx is a suiatalble solution is becase you can do something completely original. I have been very sucessful with Max, you can see my stuff at Livid in October.

I write to give my point of view, and maybe some insight. Maybe someone will do something positive with that!

[MoRpH]

No ocular I just like answers that are in depth and actually give some details.....

As for MAX/NATO.... MAC/PC.... whatever, read what pixy said.

Your coming out here (aust) for livid in october??? huh.... never been b4, mostly shit music but this time I would be keen to check it if they have some good video

[vjpixylight]

Ocular,
I can dig your points of view and that you post about what you use...
We have gotten way off topic here, and need to get back(partly my fault and I will take the blame...)

The real question is about cross-platforms for remixing...
as i stated earlier, a good computer based sequencing program that can operate on both Mac and PC and triger different sound modules, synths, soft-synths, and VJ software is what I am talking about...

sharing files from these programs is a way to get AV remixing started...
If you can use Logic, cubase, cakewalk or anyother sequencing program to trigger Max/ Nato objects lke a AV sampler ofr synth, them Max/nato is viable...If not, then lets not discuss it on this thread...I would prefer to talk about what works together, not what is a better program/OS for making AV...
If we could treat all VJ programs like a sound module, and think of them as such, (or should I say Video module...) then using midi sequencing will be an universal way too make AV mixes.. and we can get past the OS and Program wars...
:) :)

[MoRpH]

Only problem is Pixy there isn't a lot of low latency midi compatible cross platform VJ apps :(

[vjpixylight]

Yes morph, this is a real problem...
The audio-side of the industry this has dealt with
this issue by giving audio/midi prog's access to
DSP processing of the data running through them,
which is assigns DSP processing to that individual
program, cutting way down on latency..
If we could get DSP working with VJ app's then we could do it without latency...(Maybe) Video data has such big files, and maybe a ton of DSP would be needed...
:(

[vjpixylight]

The genius about midi, is that it doesn't have any latency when issuing control commands...that is why using a midi sequencer would be the best place to start...
the problem of latency comes into the picture when the device/computer gets the control data, and has to process it...
which would take different time consumption based on the CPU/Ram of the device/computer...
Lev has a good idea about using hardware based sequencers, but again, the bottlneck isn't in the sequencer, but in the program computers/hardware synths coverting the CC's into AV feeds out to the video/audio mixer...

[eXhale]

Many people are complaining about the fact MAX/NATO is a single-plateform app/language/whatever but the reality is that the majority of VJ apps are PC-only and people don't complain about it. I only know 2 VJ apps which are cross-plateform (PD & ArKaos), if you don't count the flash mixers.

I bet the mac users would love to see more cross-plateform VJ apps.

[vjpixylight]

Buffering cache helps with latency as well...

[vjpixylight]

Oh there are several cross-platform VJ app's, (just take a look at dave's site) but it is not as much a cross-platform issue as it is about control command's. In other word's it is about which computer platform is the designated master timing device, and that is really the jist of it...The slave devices can be operating any
platform software they want as long as there is an intermediary device that can route the midi time codes to all the slave devices..
Does this make any sense?? or does it just seem like I'm talking out my ass???hehehe:D

[vjpixylight]

uhh, just thinking about it, maybe I am talking out my ass...
the intermediary device would have to read both Mac and PC
MTC, and at the same time....(the motu timepiece midi merger box will do both platforms, but not at the same time you have to choose either PC or Mac...Anyone know of a way around this???

[krezrock]

Yes morph, this is a real problem...
The audio-side of the industry this has dealt with
this issue by giving audio/midi prog's access to
DSP processing of the data running through them,
which is assigns DSP processing to that individual
program, cutting way down on latency..
If we could get DSP working with VJ app's then we could do it without latency...(Maybe) Video data has such big files, and maybe a ton of DSP would be needed...



am i wrong in thinking that nato video objects are using this same dsp process?

[vjpixylight]

well,
Digital Signal Processors (DSP) are processor chips (like CPU's) only they are built for a specific processing...you will see DSP effects showing up on alot of hardware synths and digital audio mixers to handle the proceesing load, and on computer sound cards to handle the 24/96 standards...
so dsp isn't a process at all, but a processor and Nato is a process...
(In TCP/IP layering, you get alot of this kind of double-talk,) (but that is off topic as well, so enuf of that ...)

[scientifikent]

yeah, the one liners are super lame,
I don't have nearly as much time
as I'd like to work on that stuff.

as for the turntable, though,
there are a lot of key differences
between EJ and Final Scratch.

most importantly MIDI!
judging by the amount people on here
have been talking about it,
MIDI seems like an important feature.
Final Scratch has none.

second, it's optical.
meaning it never skips -
no vinyl/needle setup can claim that.

third, it runs on pc and mac.
final scratch runs on linux and beOS,
so unless you like dual booting unix,
you can't use it.

last, final scratch only plays mp3s!
the EJ turntable can interface
to anything you can imagine.

as for a knob or a jog shuttle -
ask any dj if they would trade turntables for one.
they will laugh at you.

many vjs/ejs use midi software,
manipulating visuals with knobs, etc.
imagine doing it with a couple turntables -
beatmatch and scratch any parameter,
map it to rhythms, 3D, there's no limit.

Final Scratch allows you to do
what djs have been doing for 20+ years -
mix music.

the EJ Turntable is a tool created
to evolve our options in live performance.
After you use one, maybe it will be more clear;
there is nothing quite like scratching TV on a TT.

hope you keep an open mind
and check it out when we come through!

[vjpixylight]

Scientifkent,
on the surface EJing looks like a pretty cool operation...(I can always applaud ingenuity) but as aways, the devil could be in the details...
for instance, does the turntable remain a fully functionable turntable/midi controller with pitch-adjust and good tracking?
Will all midi CC's, be recieved by the PC/Mac interface software and does that software then mix different file types together? (say mp3's and QT movies), and last what kind of resolution is the TV??-320x240??

I think that mp3 mixing is cool, but if all you can do is scratch video with the turntable, wasting $$ on another turntable to do what so many midi controllers already do, is not anything new and certainlly can't claim to be an AV mixing device...

[scientifikent]

pixy -

so the EJ system works on your existing turntables -
you don't need a new or special turntable,
just standard tech12s or whatever.

you can mix a normal record,
then in less than a minute be outputting midi -
just a very simple swap of the vinyl and headshell.
final scratch comparitively requires a lot of rewiring to use.
all turntable functions are identical to normal.
(pitch, reverse, scratching, beatmatching)
it tracks pretty tight,
and we're working to increase the sensitivity.

the midi signal is standard CC values,
and can be used by ANY midi software/gear/platform.
you can plug this into many vj programs -
videodelic, touch101, onadime, bliss, etc. -
not just the ScratchTV software.

resolution is dependant on hardware -
I think 320x240 looks pretty good,
and can run on a pretty standard system.
the os x software scales to multi processor, so...

also, I didn't mean to cause controversy with the mac comment -
I use both platforms too,
but there seems to be more vj software on mac (by far),
and developing on it is much easier and more plausible.
my 2 cents.

hope this clarifies!
as for being new or not,
have you ever mixed visuals with a turntable?
it's really really fun, you'll like it.

[vjpixylight]

that sounds pretty hot, Sci-
I'd like to try it out sometime...:D

[LEVLHED]

Originally posted by scientifikent

so the EJ system works on your existing turntables -

Uh, in case you DIDN'T know we are VJs, not DJs.
I don't own a turntable, and don't ever plan to.
I venture to guess the vast majority of members on this board don't own a TT either.

have you ever mixed visuals with a turntable?
it's really really fun, you'll like it.

Hmm.....
You really need to ask that question?
Seeing as how your little project is the only one anyone has heard of that involves TT and video, and you are only now in the prototyping stage......

as for a knob or a jog shuttle -
ask any dj if they would trade turntables for one.
they will laugh at you.
I could care less what a DJ wants/likes/thinks is funny.
Again, I'm a VJ, not a DJ.
But technically that isn't true since I actually DO DJ!
But I use www.pcdj.com , I am not part of the latest TT DJ fad....

By all means, please keep us posted on your progress. What you are doing is very interesting. Just stop trying to hijack this thread.

[scientifikent]

you can call yourself anything you want,
the name doesn't really matter -
most people on this list are innovators
and are trying to do something new.

I also am (was?) a dj - mp3, cd, vinyl -
and I think the skills are similar to VJing.
but that's not what this thread is about.

so back to the point...
sequencing audio and visuals...

I think any approach that seeks to synchronize
independent audio and video components
is destined for obsolescence.
Any algorithm for doing so is at best an approximation,
whether it's an audiovisualizing plugin,
a midi sequence, video to audio analysis,
a human hand + brain, whatever.

Life is constantly a multisensory experience.
A car drives by - you watch it, you hear it, you feel it.
So if there were a car sound in a song,
would you try to show a video of another car?
I feel it is a lot more real to have the audio and video
of the original car, synched as they inherently are in reality.
This is how our brains are wired from day one -
if you don't take advantage of that,
you are really losing a lot.

so this is where the ej turntable came in.
it's a new way of manipulating sound and video simultaneously,
and I thought it applied.
as for turntables being a fad...
tech12s have been around for almost 25 years
and half a million turntables have been sold in the past 5 years -
at this point it's more than a fad, it's a culture and an instrument.
I think anyone from Grandmaster Flash to Qbert would agree.

[JoshM]

remixing a vj/electronic set cross platform could be done with Logic Audio Platform and Arkos VJ. Both are pc and mac complient. I know Logic can cross platform the logic files but i dont know about Arkos VJ. Personally vj is a bit overpriced, and doesnt hold enough video clips in the banks. I use Midivid with a pc and works much better then the mac software ive tried. We use both also.

Audio producers use logic to remix stuff all the time. We do alot of our production with it. You can control other software using either midi or audio. If you have a sound card with multiple outs and a mixer with multiple channels and aux sends, you can send individual tracks or sounds to a sound responsive machine and have the midi stuff control synths, audio and video samplers like midivid or Arkos VJ on another machine. This is all done in realtime if you wanted to.

When doing a remix, you would have to do the audio first. Once thats done you can decide what audio or midi tracks will control what video clips on the other computer, or multiple computers.

To do a professional video/song remix would be better off using pro software like after effects, Discreet logic products ect. IT would be like if MTV video producers made music and swaped footage files and sound files. We do all our own videos, so perhaps this is the media of the future. Its the media for us right now! ;) it would be cool to colaborate with other producers also doing this type of thing but there are so few of them. Not to mention the platforms and tools are different between artists so colaboration wouldnt be hard.

I liked what killingFrenzy had to say about being an explorer rather then a map follower. Its exciting right now that this artistic medium doesn't have a standard meat and potatoes way of mixing everything. There are so many ways we can mix the media using digital devices, some of us dont want to give away our secrets ;) David Copperfeild has a reason for not telling his tricks!

[MoRpH]

Once again have arrived home after much drinking (after moving house today) to find a good thread gone a bit OT, and I just actually want to address the OT bits as I think the other stuff has mainly been covered....

Mr EJ.... "most VJ software is on mac".... bullshit...... it has been a bit mac biased in the past but its pretty even now with possibly more tools available on PC, this is just plain and simple platform bias mate, shown by your macentric example for software interfacing........ oh and arkaos VJ on PC is over-priced, under powered and featured and plain crappy josh.... its not a crossplatform solution its a crossplatform waste of time.

Secondly... I agree with LEV, I can see how this EJ turntable gadget could be nifty for a bit of on the fly remixing and for a live A/V performer but its not really good for a VJ as TT's are too big, too expensive and not part of a VJs kit... are you going to make a dowload of your scratchTV software freely available??? cause I would check that out if it reponds to midi input (like you said the TT generates) cause then I could CHOOSE to use it with a jogwheel like I said (the 2 don't have to be mutually exclusive :) )

Also you said that the EJ turntable involves a change of headshell and vinyl to happen.... thats cool if your going to just do stuff with EJ TT all night, but what if you wanted to mix regular vinyl in the set???? I can't see ppl stoping mid set to change the headshell.... so technically when its the EJ turntable it DOESN'T function as a NORMAL TT......

All of which is actually irrelevant as I don't DJ and have no plans buy a TT :p

Oh and I think LEV was talking about final scratch/EJ/etc... hwen he said the latest TT DJ fad.... not TTs themselves, still the are not part of a solely video rig.... yes a lot of us maybe in the beginning (about 5 years ago for me) wanted to mix vid with TTs but I think as you delevope as a VJ you find better ways (different controllers) to make you dreams come true...... rather than just emulate DJs (BTW thats just for mixing video, not multimedia)

[hamageddon]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by MoRpH
software interfacing........ oh and arkaos VJ on PC is over-priced, under powered and featured and plain crappy josh.... its not a crossplatform solution its a crossplatform waste of time.

yawn.... oh so predictable arkaos bashing. have u ever tried arkaos on both platforms thoroughly or are u just getting tired of vjockey dissing MoRpH?... how about some substance for once? u can always add ur own statements to my arkaos critique :D

[MoRpH]

Yes I have tried it on both platforms hama, although my mac experience was short as it was just on a mac @ a contract job, I thuoght it lacked features and the interface really bugged me. On the PC it was unstable, slow and lacked quite a few features from other softwares that I regularly use and are free..... as I said in my post above :D

[vjpixylight]

Okay this thread did get a little off-track, so here I go with a new post and a different response...
I finally have jilt's newest ver. demo working on my lappy, (one of the most awesome and extensive VJ app out there in my humble opinion)...It is working much better the previous versions I have tried, and am definately going to order the full program soon...(I know I keep saying that, but know that the demo is working (still a few glitches)and I plan on using it for one side of my VJ mix..

Okay, now what I want to do is use FLO-MO, and with a hardware, audio to midi clock converting, midi sequencer and audio fx generator, named Federation BPM FX Pro....
I recently pulled this FX processor out, blew off the dust, and started looking into it't midi sequencing features...
(It kind sucks as an audio effects processor because of it's very low audio peaking threshold...ie. it blows out the audio signal, and distorts it...)
But, as I have really started tocheck out the midi compatabilities,
I am quite amazed...It will send all its knobs,sliders, and a X-Y joystick fx mixing controller using controler #'s (30-65), and the federation also gives you a Midi clock derived from the onboard
audio input, so you can sync all the FX's to the DJ...
This is where FLOW MOTION really kicks ass as the VJ software to use...FM has a 'midi learn' capability, and will learn the controller #'s just by using any of the Federations Knob, sliders, ect... (save so much time).
The federation also works with any other hardware midi sequencer and can be set to master or slave...
Soon Jilt waill have a Mac version of FLo-Mo and then we will have avery good, midi-controllable, cross-platform, application that can will be the thing to use for live VJing....

[LEVLHED]

Hmm.....
I need to try his new ver. again now.
The previous versions have been rather unsatisfying to date.

I also have a redsound product, the Voyager One Beat Extractor (actually two of them now). I know it has incredible potential if used in a VJ app. Just need to get an app that works for me.
Lately though I've been using it to sync my Electrix MoFX to turntables (this works quite well). The MoFX is pretty damn fun to play, especially when those delays are synced nice and tight!

Also, for those of you that are interested, Redsound makes a smaller unit that will extract midi clock that goes inline w/ a headphone jack. Little less $$ and space. www.redsound.com

pixylight, please bring that federation BPM to psychic chakra so I can check it out! Maybe we can find some cooperative live P.A. dudes that will let us freak out their shit w/ our synced EFX?

[MoRpH]

Sounds like a great little box pixy....

I also have to play with the latest flo-mo but finding it hard to find time...... yeah midi learn is great I use it all the time (especially on the fly) with audiomulch.

As for great cross platform, midi controllable and possibly even controlling external hardware have a peek in on the PD thread :D should be great :)

[MoRpH]

BTW anyone else know of any wierd old units that had midi functionality but crap audio function that may be good for controllers???

[vjpixylight]

Lev, I will bring it and have it working w/flowmotion for the Psychic..
Funny about Flow Motion, I tried loading it up on my main
graphics computer with a nice graphics accelerator card and 384 megs of RAM, and when I go to load a clip into the floMo mix area, the computer crashes..yet, I loaded the latest ver. into my slower lappy with only 64 megs of RAM, and it works very nice(Except that the lappy can't do alot of RT FX's and layers(only a 500Mghz celeron)... I am hoping to get it all running smooth for the european tour that I will be on after the psychic event...I hope to hit up Jilt while in Amsterdam so he can tweek FLo-MO to run optimally on the lappy...(the only problems I have with it running on the lappy is that I can't seem to save a fully loaded bank, or save the state...other than that it runs 640x480 out my S-vhs connection on the back of the lappy, and runs faster than Motion Dive3..So Jilt...Keep up the good work!!! and I will be seeing you in Amsterdam when I arrive on the 28th of June!!!

[JoshM]

Originally posted by MoRpH
BTW anyone else know of any wierd old units that had midi functionality but crap audio function that may be good for controllers???

We've been using our Yamaha RM1x for controlling midivid. It works great! we're only using a 450 p II laptop with a scan converter and its great for synching with the music, triggering video samples with the music, as well as live on the fly sequencing and remixing. I dont really need other vj apps with auto sync and what not for the time being. Its handy and works well. It also has 8 knobs to send any CC# that i want. Since we're allready used to doing live pas with this thing, doing vj gigs with it works just as well. Makes it lots of fun from this musician's point of view ;)