video mixer working group

[wellREDman]

following on from this (http://www.vjforums.com/showthread.php?postid=87941#post87941) thread, and conversations tom and i have had, heres an idea

apparently the jpeg was created when a bunch of pro photographers got together and decided a common picture format was needed in the early days of pc photo stuff cos all the companies were faffing around with proprietary formats.

so maybe we could take a similar tack.

if a bunch of us were to call ourselves the Joint Club Video Performance Working Group (or some similarly catchy acronym) and put together the specs we actually need for a club mixer in a properly professional way.
we could all use our contacts to get the Matt Black/micha Kliens/addictive type people to put their names in.
and submit them to the people at Edirol/Korg etc. in a corporate fashion.
then we might actually stand a chance of getting a mixer that would be really useful.

[MoRpH]

sounds like a great idea.

[lowRes]

hi all!

not trying to be negative, mostly bcause i really like the idea, and i think it would improve a lot our work if the industry really listened to what we (the users) say and need!
but..
..i can?t stop imagining some brand releasing a new mixer 'specially made for vj's' justifying an enourmous bang in our wallet$...

* )
r_x

[PiedPiper]

I second that a very good idea.

How should we go about the process?
I'm sure that getting a perpective form some pretty technical people would help too. - it would also make it appear more corporate i think?

[wellREDman]

i'd guess we bluesky ideas for a bit, then the more technicaly knowledged discuss practicalities, then it gets collated into wants/needs and then we talk about the actual technical presentation.

[wellREDman]

Originally posted by lowRes

..i can?t stop imagining some brand releasing a new mixer 'specially made for vj's' justifying an enourmous bang in our wallet$...

* )
r_x

we're not
were trying to use our experience to make sure the videomixers "specially made for DJ's" arent as useability flawed as all mixers have been so far.

realistically speaking the next generation of mixers will be for use with a pair of dvdjx's primarily, we just want it to be usable in a club environment

[visualove]

What exactly are some of the things you are looking for that are not in a V4 or an MX-50/70?

[wellREDman]

v4 - loop through
parameter control of ALL fx at once
NAM
Audio
Downstream Key
audio follow

ave/mx - selectable preview output
midi control
cut buttons
not having a footprint measured
in acres

videonics - everything except the quad preview output

[PiedPiper]

At least 3 s-video inputs.
and 2 svideo outputs, not including a preview monitor

Audio triggered effects ala- mx-30/50
i know strobe and nega are very simple but also very useful.

a form factor/ size similar to the v-4, or modern dj mixers
(altho not as big as a pioneer djm-5000 or whatever)

downstream keying would be nice to have.

Audio follow but also the ability to turn the audio follow off.

[brain]

like the idea too, but cant help thinking they are having a laugh because you are doing their work for free - they get a market survey, save development and research costs etc etc. for less than a "thank you".

i know people are very eager for a mixer like that and will put a lot of thinking into it, make even drawings of UIs and what else.

therefore it would be more adequate to set up a cooperation between "our" people and "them" - with some payback at least.

[wellREDman]

i'd be more than happy wit the "payback" of having a mixer with all the feature i want in one unit .


something else i think would be really useful is having a brightness/contrast/R/G/B pot for each bus like you have treble/mid/bass on an audio mixer (preferably before it goes to the keying module)

[brain]

Originally posted by wellREDman
i'd be more than happy wit the "payback" of having a mixer with all the feature i want in one unit.

yea, but not if you have to pay for it after you helped to design...?

companies will not be nice and hand out presents, there will have to be a written contract to get pay in cash or hardware.

dont underestimate the value of your knowledge and experience!

[wellREDman]

far better to be listened to, than paid,
mind you if theyre paying you then maybe theyre more likely to pay attention

I guess its a matter of how to approach them, my instinct is if we approach them and say, we want you to give us money to tell you how to design your next mixer they will tell us to fuck off, and then we'll have no money AND no say.

if we approach them as a working group and say here these are the speccs deemed neccesary for a usable club mixer as defined in discussion with blah blah blah at least we stand a chance of getting what we want

[brain]

far better to be listened to, than paid

both is even better.

Originally posted by wellREDman
if we approach them as a working group and say here these are the speccs
if you give away your info before negotiating, they will happily take it and give you no deal. you have to tell them that you hold valuable infomation and get them interested in a cooperation.

i appreciate your enthusiasm, but the project targets not a nice online community who shares knowledge, but corporations who want to make money. off your work, if you aren't careful.

whats the point if your dream mixer comes out and you are not credited for it and can't afford it?

anyway, they just have to read the mixer/hardware discussions here (and this thread) to get most of the VJs ideas...

[wellREDman]

Originally posted by brain

whats the point if your dream mixer comes out and you are not credited for it and can't afford it?



i suck on mammon's teat as much as anyone else,
but everything doesnt have to be about money

tbh if it meant that i can get a mixer that has midi AND dsk AND fx send/return then i'm happy even if i have to pay for it.

and yes they can read these forums, but info is all buried in rantings, whereas if they are approached by a professional user organisation i hope they will be more attentive.

[lowRes]

//wellredman
* )
don't misinterpret me.. i'm all forward on this idea!
specially with the kind of approach to the industry!
it's better to have an user approach than nothing!

but also agree with //brain.
i'm having a cold view on the marketing scheme,
better not give them anything for free..

a group or organization of professional people might be the answer!


r_x
* )

[leolodreamland]

what about a hardware multiply, screen and difference mix modes. i think that'd be my mixer holy grail.

[PiedPiper]

the hardware multiply, and different mix modes would definetly be nice.

I also like the idea of seperate R,G and B pots or kill switches - similar to your bass, mid and high freq. controls on an audio mixer.

Of course it would probably work just as well with H,S,L controls too. - varying the strength of the L channel would have a nice "bloom" type effect - which would be pretty cool if synced to a beat. - same goes for the saturation, it would probably just lead to a strange colour cycling on the Hue channel.

[vjpixylight]

one quick point..

It seems your leaving out the biggest potential market, that being the US.

If you are to succeed in whooing the corporate types, you will need to get some of the industry professionals in the States, like Pete Warden, V2 and other's who have some clout in the entertainment industry particularly in LA..

About the mixer...
I would really like to see more selectable outputs on any mixer that would be thought up specifically for VJing..

Love the idea of the RGB pots and kills as well:yep:

[WordVirus23]

2 outs, each w/ loop through or selectable preview (ala v4). each Out would be assignable... meaning, a basic #x2 router built in.

[murph]

I like the way the pioneers have two inputs on each channel that can be switched, in a video mixer I'd like to see that be a comp and svid input on all four channels, with switches, so if I need to bring in more gear I can, without increasing the price dramatically of a 4ch mixer.

[jeffhtg]

seriously guys.. stop talking about features and cool stuff.. hey wouldnt i be cool if the mixer had a hundred dollar bill printer on it??

no.. the FIRST thing to do is get organised and incorperated. we need to raise funds to do so - elect our board and go from there.. STRUCTURE is important over ideas right now.

[charlielangridge]

Well im on board with this project, although I dont think we should limit it to just mixers

[Amukidi]

something else i think would be really useful is having a brightness/contrast/R/G/B pot for each bus like you have treble/mid/bass on an audio mixer (preferably before it goes to the keying module)

God yes! That would be really handy.

[syzygy]

Originally posted by jeffhtg
seriously guys.. stop talking about features and cool stuff.. hey wouldnt i be cool if the mixer had a hundred dollar bill printer on it??

no.. the FIRST thing to do is get organised and incorperated. we need to raise funds to do so - elect our board and go from there.. STRUCTURE is important over ideas right now.

I wish I could disagree and say "no - its ideas that are important" but I have to agree with Jeff here.

Ideas can get thrown around for ever in forums like this and never get adopted by anyone.

The best way to get something that we are in in favour of adopted is to create a process that will lead to a proper working group being formed, ideas being refined, clearly specified and ultimately presented in a way that makes them attractive to manufacturers.

The best way to get such a process is to form a clearly defined group of people who will create a proposal to put to the community (note that these will not neccessarily be the people on the eventual working group, but rather the people who will find the people for the working group)

So I guess the question is, who believes in this enough to put some administration work in?

[charlielangridge]

I'll have some time in June to work with some others on this. Who else is up for it?

[wellREDman]

well im definitely in,
my time is currently quite limited, but im hoping once things are flowing more ill ave time spent on bus available to work on this

[alangeering]

I'm mad busy for the summer. I will be in a demanding job after that for another 12 months. During those 12 months I could do some work, but would not be up to managing any project. After those 12 months my plans are not fixed. Another 3 years study or a job in the chemicals industry beckon. If this mixer group takes off and in 12 months looks like its worth persuing then I'll see what I can do.

[therandelman]

i really dont know much about "mixer architecture" , but would it be possible to feed a mixer with some kind of catriges (or just some memory cards or an USB plug), to vary and change the sets/types of effects? thinking about something like freeframe... the user could get excactly those effects he wants then, maybe even program the fx himself...)

[wellREDman]

i think the point of this has been missed a bit,
its not about designing new gimmicks into a new mixer,
but about us getting a voice into the design process of companies that are already making mixers to
(a) ensure they dont have stupid things like the monitor output fading to black when you kill the output (how are you sposed to set up a key beforehand?)
or not having enuff knobs to control each fx parameter when you can have multiple fx running
(b) get included things that are technically realistic, but outside of the envelope of thinking of R&D like RGB pots, FX send/return loops
(c) stop the losing of functionality that is happening , such as the fact that none of the modern mixers have a monitor out per input.

its as much about looking at what features of existing mixers make them nice to use and should be incorporated into future products as it is about what doohickeys we can dream up to put in .

for an SD videomixer, i'd like to have a v4 with:
contrast/brightness/R/G/B pots per channel,
NAM as well as additive mix mode
FX send receive with a wet/dry pot preferably per Bus but i'd settle for only on output. maybe even with a cut/take switch
svid on all inputs,
monitor out on all inputs OR mx1 style quad output,
separate master output monitor, that doesnt go away when you kill the output, so you can set up fx/key before you fade up on screen.

none of these are features are wildly difficult to implement, or needing tons of costly R&D yet for this I'd gladly pay 3 times the list price of a v4. and have a mixer that was genuinely useful.

[petewarden]

I think this is an excellent idea. I think the real trick will be in building a relationship with somebody at one of these companies, to get past the 'call center' level of employee to somebody who might have some influence.

Most companies have users that they involve in the design process to some extent, so it shouldn't be impossible.

Pete

[alangeering]

I totally agree. 2 years ago Kiss offered to develop a custom set of DVD player for a show I was working on. Unfortunatly the offer (and my approach) came too late in the show's timeline. But those kind of technical contacts are the kind we need.

If edirol and others won't play then people like Focus Enhancements who already make thier video ICs available for integration might:

see:

http://www.focusinfo.com/products/fs460/fs460.htm

[Luminarti]

Hi

Whilst not super technical, i have met the uk technical guys from edirol, and would gladly pass comments/documents their way. This is very important i think to get the products working well.
I would love wellREDman's suggestions on my V4.

I will ask them out how early they design in these types of features as their High Definition is already finalised, but maybe they'll introduce another product along side.

Mark
VJ Luminarti

[platinum]

The feature, above all, that I would kill for (almost) is RGB/d-sub mixing al la V440HD. The difference I see on my projectors when I put a XGA signal through instead of S-video or composite is dumbfoundingly large. I'm looking into building a PC to mix said signals, but haven't found the right input cards yet. (friend of mine will be programming the interface and I plan on using something like a BCF2000 for human-interface)

Anyway, it's about time the video industry made some more products up our alley. I like the Edirol V-4, but I'm going to stick with my AVE5 and AVE7 combo for now until I find something that will allow me to mix straight monitor signals.


-Jonathan




P.S: I think this is my first post, so yes, I don't think you've seen me on here before.

[THC]

about a V4 with a 3 to 6 sec sample memory mode? that will give ya and extra source to mix from, (logo, text or any swf that you preload into it) or grab ouput mix. (some like korg i guess)
i'll pay extra for those.
any progress since this thread started?

[Jef3jon]

I know this post has been going on for a while.
I just wanted to comment that these suggestions are not going unnoticed.
I know some of you have met/know EDIROL staff and they are open to hearing ideas and passing along suggestions.

There are some excellent ideas in this thread alone and believe me it's not easy to filter them all into a comprehensive report. :crazyeyes

I will say that EDIROL/Roland, more than any company, is comitted to the art/craft of VJing and giving artists/musicians the tools to make it easier to allow them to focus on their art.

Keep 'em coming.

Cheers!

[leolodreamland]

how about hardware overlay modes like add, multiply and difference etc... chroma keys on the mix buses instead of just as fx... and in different colours without going into menu.
more parameters affected via midi, like brightness contrast, screen positioning. stuff that doesn't need sysex wizardry/mindnumb.
more/definable colourise palettes.
oh and all of the things red said...

[leolodreamland]

and 32bit video support so we can use hardware alphas

[rickmaersk]

how about hardware overlay modes like add, multiply and difference etc
Totally agree. When i'm using a software mixer I always enjoy those modes plus ral time blur.
Rick