Real scratch video/ vjing..

[sofarok]

Real scratch video/ vjing..


Ever since I got a pre-release of the first vjamm I have been interested in the idea of truly ?scratching? video. Seems to me no one has come close to doing with video what a ?turntabalist does with vinyl. Is this because we are limited to 24 frames a second so we cant be precise? Is it because as of yet no software can support the incredible speeds of real scratch manipulation with out some lag occurring?

If one views a video mixer as its audio counterpart what would be the technics 1200 of the av world? i ruled out any tapped based system early on and as I mentioned the computer based solutions are lacking. It will be interesting to see if something like finalscratch (http://www.finalscratch.com ) will ever support a video format. Does anyone know of any experimentation in this area?

[MoRpH]

do a search on EJ, there are some guys going on about a new optical turntable based system.... for the TURNTABLES you ALREADY HAVE!!! LOL as if, seriously I think something like the DM2 connected to a good VJ software is the way to go, which is why I have one coming in the post and am getting a modified copy of SVi to run it :)

[sofarok]

i guess it could be an interesting bit of hardware if you had some cool software to go with it....looks a bit plasticy

[murph]

I've seen nothing yet that I'd call the "tech 1200" of VJing, IMO the legacy of that is more about its being the standard than what it does. The EJ system sounds like a wanky attempt to turn the DJ into a VJ. Won't happen.

[sleepytom]

Hmmm
the 25 frames per second thing is a good point - you can't quickly manipulate video - there is no visable effect as your not going outside of one frame.

really all this stuff comes down to the audio side - there is little point in scratching silent video as you can't see it moving, there is only any point in scratching AV video and most of the time the video will have little movement but the audio will sound good! - the only program that currently is designed for audiovisual scratching is AVscratch! by camart [sorry EJ but i've watched your demo video and your scratch doesn't sound right - more like a buffer underrun than a record scratch)

as for high performance AV software with no latency once again camart are streets ahead with VJamm 2

the DM2 is a piece of shit - no drivers for win2k or xp (98se +me only) it is buit like a cheap toy. also i'm confused as to how any VJ software will support it - do you have a usb test app that i could try and get to recognise it cos at the moment it doesn't seem to offer any way of accessing the data it sends

[elbows]

I slightly disagree, there is a point to scratching silent video, I do it quite a lot. If you change the sensitivity so that you are acratching quite a large amount of frames with only a small movement, then it can be good for manipulating silent video in time to music. At the moment Im just using a midi ribbon controller but its quite fun, Im eager to get some kind of rotary controller to try, but Im not looking to precisely emulate the technique of record scratching.

Having said all that Im going down the AV route a bit so I think Vjamm 2 in on my Christmas list. Does AV Scratch support midi? (Im right in thinking I cant get a demo version of AVScratch or have I been confused?)

[sofarok]

I would like to be scratch audio and video, I think those Exceeda (http://www.exceeda.co.uk/) chappies do a pretty good job of fusing the tuntablist, scratch dj thing with video. If any one gets to see the film ?Scratch (http://www.scratchmovie.com/) ? check it out, definitely opens yours to what?s possible with two turntables. Worth checking out dj Radar (http://www.djradar.com) , this guy is superb, samples himself live to create tracks on stage?..all ways thought its would be cool to have some sort of video sampler connected to a cable tv feed, surf channels and take live samples from different stations, eventually building up a whole track?..maybe?

[MoRpH]

Originally posted by sleepytom
as for high performance AV software with no latency once again camart are streets ahead with VJamm 2

Nice to see you still plugin away for Camart/VJamm still... tis a good app but some FX would be nice, bet hey is supposed to be a AV soft not just video (which I guess were FX are more called for)

the DM2 is a piece of shit - no drivers for win2k or xp (98se +me only) it is buit like a cheap toy. also i'm confused as to how any VJ software will support it - do you have a usb test app that i could try and get to recognise it cos at the moment it doesn't seem to offer any way of accessing the data it sends

Yes tom, AWAX wrote a DirectX test app for us so we could see the actual axis/controllers any HID device was out putting, so thats why I'm concentrating on DX apps. as for built like a cheap toy I don't know yet but I'm sure it could be sturdied up with maybe a different case, etc... as for drivers pfft doesn't worry me I'll take a nice minimal install of Win98se with DX8.1 over the bloatwear that is XP anyday.

[stimuleye]

I agree with Elbows...I scratch loops in MAX which also lets you change the frame rate in real time so you can get clips looping in time with the beat etc. just like changing pitch control on a 1210. Hook that up to a hardware controller and scratch away!

[jansi]

question to stimuleye:
i'm working on an interactive instalation which make use of video controlled with sound (the speed of video playback depends on sound level)
I've started working on it in director (asFFT for live sound input data) , but i'm not really happy with performance ,
is max/pd signifficantly faster than director?
thanx

[stimuleye]

Originally posted by jansi
question to stimuleye:
i'm working on an interactive instalation which make use of video controlled with sound (the speed of video playback depends on sound level)
I've started working on it in director (asFFT for live sound input data) , but i'm not really happy with performance ,
is max/pd signifficantly faster than director?
thanx

I can't say that MAX is or isn't faster than Director, we use both in our shows for different things, but I think MAX will probably give you more options and once you've got into MAX what you are doing would be relatively easy.

[jansi]

thnx stimuleye

[Anyone]

on top of Director and Max,

you could also try to Isadora
http://www.troikatronix.com/

which is a Max based soft I think,
it works with midi anyway so you can actually plug anything you want into it...
and scratch away...

But has anybody actually tryed this:

just dismantle an old VHS deck and VHS tape,
so you can access the deck's playback head directly,
and just run a loose magnetic tape extracted from a cassette
and get it to read different parts
by pulling one end or another of that tape ?

Ne1

[robotfunk]

But has anybody actually tryed this:

just dismantle an old VHS deck and VHS tape,
so you can access the deck's playback head directly,
and just run a loose magnetic tape extracted from a cassette
and get it to read different parts
by pulling one end or another of that tape ?


Someone pulling this off would get mad props from me.
This would be very difficult as VCR's dont work as simple as cassette tapes. The tape is wound around a drum that does the reading (or writing). Besides even if that were done its hard to keep signal sync at non standard tape speeds. Man if only video was as easy to handle as audio ... you could do mad stuff like the tape bows Laurie Anderson uses with tape head violin...

[sleepytom]

you can't just change tape speed / direction and get scratching as you loose sync although that's reminded me of seeing DVJX from exceeda playing av clips off an svhs tape using the jog shuttle to go back and forth in a scratch type style (this was quite a few years back now though - exceeda currently use VJamm 2 pro and have one of the best scratch DJs in the country - which certainly helps achieve that turntabelist style)

yep morph FX in VJamm would be grate (watch this space - there is a lot going on in VJ effect land)
i

DM2 2k driver is out now so i'll rethink my view (i've got the thing working in 2k with its music software - god awful software but its a start at least)

98se?? what year is it?? (ok i know its a little faster but its no where near as stable as 2k)

yep the old back forth scratch over a large time period of silent video is a very tried and tested technique but is not very analogous to the turntabelist style scratch.

if you ever get the chance to see kid koala (http://www.kidkoala.com) he's well worth checking out - amazing what the bloke can do with a record

[LarryLightshow]

The EJ Crew came over to my studio last week to show me there
new Scratch system..very powerful ..I really love it ..works on real turntables...only prob is it only runs on MAC (yuck)..but they said they were working on the PC version soon

[spark]

i think tom is right: there is little point in just scratching video. oooh! look! i can make the guy jump around! isn't really quite the same as a scratch dj.

its not the tools: think about what actually happens when you scratch records and video. by scratching records you actually synthesise a new sound and it truly becomes an instrument. by scratching video you're just rearranging the playback order of existing still images.

if all i could do was scratch video, i'd have got very bored a long time ago ;)

_but that isn't to say that a new AV instrument, largely based on video, isn't possible... its just that its going to be something unique in its own right, and not just a scratch machine. something very 21st century, methinks.

[LarryLightshow]

scratching video is awesome
it looks great when your on stage.( if your into performing for the crowd...)

[sleepytom]

exactly toby

when we talk of scratching a record we know exactly what we're talking about

when we talk of scratching video everyone has there own idea of what we're talking about - from frame rate changes to direction changes to sync loss type effects and old film type effects. lets try and be a little more precise as to what we mean when we are describing technique (as often the content of the clip will determine what happens when you apply a certain type of process)

>Larry i assume you mean using a turntable to manipulate video looks awesome?
if so i have to disagree - using a turntable to manipulate video makes you look like a DJ - sure the crowd might look at you but they think your playing the music - there are far more interesting interfaces that we can build to control video in a way that looks cool (that midi lemon i remember seeing on eyecandy was a good start) hope fully we can find a way of building some video instruments that make it really obvious that were doing the video

only then will the crowds start to see VJs (rather than visuals) as an important part of the night

[MoRpH]

Originally posted by sleepytom
yep morph FX in VJamm would be grate (watch this space - there is a lot going on in VJ effect land)
i

Hehehehe I know mate I have my ear to the ground too, glad to hear some projects are FINALLY coming along.

DM2 2k driver is out now so i'll rethink my view (i've got the thing working in 2k with its music software - god awful software but its a start at least)

Yeah pretty horrid innit, I'm still yet to get around to testing it with Awax tester to get the details to pass on to the various software developers, but now this thread has reminded me I might get onto that after my arvo of meetings.

98se?? what year is it?? (ok i know its a little faster but its no where near as stable as 2k)

Yeah I know where you comming from but I have had some terrible 2k experiences, so i'm sticking with what I know and like, will migrate one day.

[LarryLightshow]

I agree with you tom ..we sure could figure out more creative ways to perform live visuals..but I do feel that scratching video (yes acting like a DJ) is a killer way of putting on a show for the crowd. And now I'm doing video work with my own original soundtracks attached and then scratching that live..and I got years of skillz as a turntableist, so it would be hard for me not to rock out on scratching video ..

sure the crowd might look at you but they think your playing the music

when I'm in the house ,nobody thinks I'm making the music ,they usally know who I am and what i do. (and I dont even use that silly corny lame ass surname "VJ" that so many of you do, which is really just a way of fitting into the "DJ" culture.)

[littlecatalyst]

i didnt see anything mentioned in th is thread about using BetacamSP for scratching.... if you ever get access to a tv studio or have a good budget, go on a betacam and use the "Dynamic tracking" with that teh jog/shuttle becomes a turntable and you can scratch..... sure its just one trick umong many (and much better pre assembled than live in teh club)
but a really cool thing is that you get the scratching with the sounds and video (it sounds just like a record being scratched, i swear), so you know; Two BetacamSPs, a mixer and a microphone.....
((thnaks for letting me post this so late..)

[sofarok]

the jog shuttle is to small, i guess that could be fixed some how tho.

[vjpixylight]

Originally posted by sleepytom
you can't just change tape speed / direction and get scratching as you loose sync although that's reminded me of seeing DVJX from exceeda playing av clips off an svhs tape using the jog shuttle to go back and forth in a scratch type style (this was quite a few years back now though - exceeda currently use VJamm 2 pro and have one of the best scratch DJs in the country - which certainly helps achieve that turntabelist style)

yep morph FX in VJamm would be grate (watch this space - there is a lot going on in VJ effect land)
i

DM2 2k driver is out now so i'll rethink my view (i've got the thing working in 2k with its music software - god awful software but its a start at least)

98se?? what year is it?? (ok i know its a little faster but its no where near as stable as 2k)

yep the old back forth scratch over a large time period of silent video is a very tried and tested technique but is not very analogous to the turntabelist style scratch.

if you ever get the chance to see kid koala (http://www.kidkoala.com) he's well worth checking out - amazing what the bloke can do with a record

Hmmm, I am surprised that more Vj's arn't scratching timeline based visualz... I know Kerry U. scratches vids from FCP's timeline, and there are USB jog/shuttle controllers out, to make it this all a breeze to do this..

On another note about VJ scratching softs, have any of you AVJ's used the 'Red Sound System's' "Federation" to do midi A/V scratching?
With over 60 midi continous controller that it sends, and rotary knobs, 4 way fx's axis joy stick, it is definately the Hum-V of the Midi controller world.. (IMHO)
http://www.sospubs.co.uk/sos/oct99/images/redfederation1.gif
I will post a full A/V review of the Federation, once I finalize my A/V setup for AVit NA, in which I plan to use it extensively.
for a good audio review of the federation, go to:
http://www.sospubs.co.uk/sos/oct99/articles/redsound.htm

Also another cool little rotary knob, midi, GS midi, and XG midi controller to scratch with is the Phat Boy by KeyFax..
http://www.digitalvillage.co.uk/aproduct.asp?ProductID=2935

anyhow, I have used both of these pieces of equipment, (for different purposes), and highly recomend either one to do more than just scratch your A/V...

[littlecatalyst]

Originally posted by sofarok
the jog shuttle is to small, i guess that could be fixed some how tho.

you get used to it... its kinda a one-finger scratch technoqie (two max) but it does work ((for any analog people wishing to scratch-- then again software is much cheaper than a $30,000 deck, if ur giong to have to spend that i guess youd get an mx70 instead.....))

[vjpixylight]

Originally posted by spark


its not the tools: think about what actually happens when you scratch records and video. by scratching records you actually synthesise a new sound and it truly becomes an instrument. by scratching video you're just rearranging the playback order of existing still images.


_but that isn't to say that a new AV instrument, largely based on video, isn't possible... its just that its going to be something unique in its own right, and not just a scratch machine. something very 21st century, methinks.


No you are missing the midi angle Spark...there is a new synthesis of both audio and video being made by using DJ style scratching techniques...

The key to real A/V synthesis is to scratch A/V with midi continous controllers, which in the VJ program, uses effects to dynamically alter the video into a new synthesis, of which you speak of in relationship to a DJ scratching audio and creating new sounds...
anyhow that is what me thinks..:)

[neuroprocess]

OK, it's cool to get reference of technics from the DJ world, but as VJing being the new art form, it is important to think VJing as a unique form of performence art by itself. If you look at the evolution of television, it took decades for it to become TV as we know today. So I think it will take some time to see full potential and format of VJing. There are some similarities between DJing and VJing like sampling, manipulating the raw media, and sincronizing, however, audio and video aren't the same thing.

It's good to utilize the turntables with a computer to persome stuff like scratching, but I think it's time to move away from the wheels of steal. We have to think VJing as a seperate performence medium. A good VJ is dealing with a lot more when he or she is performing live. I believe you shouldn't spin records and do video mixing at the same time like utilizing the turntable as a time control device because that would be too much to deal with for one person. The DJ should do his job and so does the VJ, and if two can collaborate, then you will make a great looking and sounding show. As far as the Technics 1200 being the standard equipment for DJs and there isn't such thing for VJs, I believe there can be a piece of hardwear that yet to be made become the standard equipment for all live video mixing/effects needs. I hope to contribute to that effort.
The bottom line is keep doing what you love and something great will come out of it. The art of VJing will keep growing and evolve into a new and exciting medium.;)

[krezrock]

Anybody heard of Ms. Pinky? It's a Max driven product:


http://mspinky.com/jpgs/System_Setup_NoDolls.jpg

Interdimensional Wrecked System (http://mspinky.com/WreckedSystem_Frameset.html)


I have yet to see this or the EJ system in action. But I want a system just like this.