corporate content theft?

[many2]

here is a link to an online version of the article I was talking about :
http://lightingdimensions.com/mag/lighting_cautionary_content_tale/

[Psychoptik]

I met Vello Virkhaus (V2) in November 2002 here in Mexico for the Acapulco World Sound Fest when he came to do visuals with OVT (with partner Brian Dressel from Chicago).
I was doin visuals on psytrance stage , i believe they had house and drum and bass stage, both of em are cool to hang out with and most all of their visuals were really very good and left me quite impressed...Im pretty sure V2 is L.A. based (he was when he came over).

As the second night of the festival was cancelled due to a tropical storm and instead all the DJs were playing in clubs, we hung out in their hotel room and later went to a club to catch Deep Dish and some others.
Vello is a very cool guy and although i havent talked with him since, im glad to read hes doin? good and puttin VJing up and out there!

:yep:

Peace!

edited to add:

Hmmm...i dunno how this post ended in this thread... i initially wrote it somewhere else(thread about V2 in apple website)...but i guess its somewhat relevant?

[Kyle]

Damn thats rough, thanks for sharing the article.

[RootsDigitalized]

I just read that articles....

I have similar experienced but different situation.

At December 2004, a big event organizer at my country (Indonesia) contact us as a VJ for event called Radio Music Award, an off air awarding radio stations which are the event organizer sister companies. I don't want to put some name here.
The d-day is January 26, 2005.
So before that we have made several meetings and technical meetings, with all people who involve with this event. From the stage designer, contractor, lighting rentals, lighting designer, sound systems, sound engineer.

First we have to tell about background of the event organizer who commissioning us.
This event organizer have many sister companies. Actually they are under one holding company. This holding company just expands their business; they just soft launch their own TV station.

We have a deal with the event organizer and the contract said the event just for an OFF AIR, and will be not broadcast at any TV stations.
For venue, they just use small club.
Let me explain very shortly what the task for us to do.
Beside VJing we have to produce the contents.
They commissioning us to produce the motion graphic for their sponsor logo motion, the event logo motion, awarding bumpers, and VJing for several songs & band live music performance.
The clubs have 6 projectors and screens for us.
We use the Edirol V-4, and a video camera for live on screen.

The problems come out on the D-Day.
At the time, we have testing our equipment and produced all content special for the event that day. Suddenly before rehearsal, the event organizer told us about their sister company (The New TV Station) will plug a cable to our Edirol V-4 video mixer. I was very surprised and angry when realized they (TV station) want to plug to output channel from our Edirol video mixer (for information Edirol V-4 have 2 output channels), and they (TV station) want record all the content with their VTR recorder when we VJing. The excuse is, for editing, to make the event for their TV programmed. What the F?..!!!
The event organizer argued that all contents belong to them cause they?ve already pay for that. In the contract never said about giving all content for them. The logo motion and awarding bumpers and all content for that event we will give them. But the video art when we VJing for the band live performance, in contract said belongs to us, and they're not allowed to use that especially for broadcast.

I was very defending our content and not allowed they used our content for their TV programmed. Some of the TV station top management several times pushes us to plug their cables. The event organizers give up and they didn?t want involve with that situation. Until I ask them to talk to at least one of their holding company boards of director. Suddenly the TV station people pull back. They cancelled to plug the cable.
And we go on without interfere from the TV station again.

After the show, I ask the event organizer why they did that. They just simply answer, pressure from the top management. The new TV station comes very late with idea and realized that the event is very important and they not ready to produce for TV programmed. The producer wanted to cut short. They have a brilliant (and stupid too) idea to record our content (including the our video art and live on screen video from us).

From that experienced, We always ask the contract and double check the contract with our lawyer, even just VJing for two hours in a very small club. If they refused to sign the contract, we don?t want deal with them.

[many2]

Thanks for sharing your story RootsDigitalized :)

Would it be a good idea to move this message and my link to the V2 article in LD magazine into a new thread - something with a title like "corporate content theft" ?

Anybody else has a similar story to share with us ?

[vjpixylight]

Originally posted by many2
Thanks for sharing your story RootsDigitalized :)

Would it be a good idea to move this message and my link to the V2 article in LD magazine into a new thread - something with a title like "corporate content theft" ?

Anybody else has a similar story to share with us ?

This news doesn't really shock me much, as I am sure we all have been screwed by a promoter or 2 somewhere somehow..

What makes this story sad, is that when bigger money gets into stuff like this, you are already playing on a uphill slope..(we all know the DIY etho of VJ's can't really compete against big multinational corps?)

I would just suggest that when/if you do get into bigger name acts visuals, that you don't create any content without a contract...
If they don't want to sign one, but are willing to pay you up front, then just use alot of clever camera footage, fx's, and VJ them up live!!..(I don't think that this would happen had it been mearly video of the hip-hop group in question)...
Also I might add, that pre-produced media like this, is sure to fall prey to hacker's and spycams, once it hits the public arena. there is simply no 100% guarrenteed way of protecting it.
If you put your media on a rented piece of hardware, like what happened here, it is more than likely it will be copied somewhere by someone.
If you are paranoid of losing your copyrighted VJ clips, simple don't make anything that you will be shown in public..
...and you can always ask to use whatever footage the band/DJ/whoever has, and then you don't have to worry if your prize VJ clips are getting hacked...

...when you think about it, we all have risk factors that we have to deal with daily..Doing it up legal and all, doesn't mean you still can't be a victim of this kinda thing happening.
When your product is worth 150 grand, don't hesitate to think that there aren't ppl out there who have an eye to cash in on the bounty...
Unless you are big enuf to have a private attorney on retainer, deal with ppl that you can trust.... It's the only way...there is something to be said, about the company you keep. If you think you are getting too good of a deal to be true, you probably are...

[levon]

hmm, i think i will start getting contracts signed from now on...

[Rovastar]

I was getting ready to split this thread a few hours ago and didn't get around to it.

Interesting situation about the bigger scale of what we do and a cautionary tale that in the bigger world out there it is just as bad.

I feel for the situation that he found himself.

With hindsight it is very easy to see the mistakes.

Make them sign the contract about the use of the unauthorized copyrighted stuff beforehand. Stick to your guns. ?I will not go out on stage unless I am free of liability.? He must have had some time?days?.weeks to prepare material before going onstage.

Going onstage without that contract signed is unwise.

It is also unclear what unauthorized copyrighted material he used. I know many here have little problem using film clips for small gigs but when you get into DVD/high profile/televised gigs it is a different story and the only advice can be use original material. But if he used custom content he did for another gig in that gig. It does raise again different ethical questions about how much he respected the client whom he did the original content for so that he then used for another clients tour.

Letting the content out of your sight is another issue. I would be cautious of using my material on another?s hardware.

[sleepytom]

yeah never put your content onto someone else's hardware -- if you are renting systems such as a hippo or catalist then make sure you are able to format the media drives before you return the system.

if your feeling paranoid it might be an idea to use something such as killdisk to erase the disks

[visualove]

Would it be a good idea to move this message and my link to the V2 article in LD magazine into a new thread - something with a title like "corporate content theft" ?

Maybe a better title is "Maintaining control of your content, and livelihood - legally"

You can try to put into the contract the recovery of your legal fees from the other party. Eventually we'll see a VJ-visualist trade association which could provide legal services to its members.

Seems like with all the media company mergers that the hip hop artist could find some film footage from the same mega company to license for free. Same should be true for sound samples.

[videoteque]

This story is incredible and multilevel...

The most incredible is that even if he is right, he can't do anything because the offenders are bigger than him. Jungle law???

In any case contracts are very important. I myself never firm any for VJing, but I was scammed once already from a council next to where I live. They have a summer festival and I "verbally" commisioned to do visuals for an Opera. The job in itself was stunning, VJing in a castle from the 1400s to a Opera played by a 30 musicians orchestra and 4 singers. But the council never payed me. I asked for a contract but never got it...

[LEVLHED]

wow, what a worst-case scenario that story is!

I don't know about anyone else, but I would really like to know who [the hip hop artist ] is.

[holly]

While I sympathize with these situations, I just want to briefly note that this is a 180-turn-around from all the posts claiming sampling should be totally legal and big corps "ruin" art so we VJs should be allowed to rip and play anything we want. Copyrights are evil, etc.

I'm just playing devil's advocate here, but does anybody else see the irony?
:eek: :scared:

[vjpixylight]

maybe on the surface, but when you get into the story, we are talking high finance, and global record labels here,

If you can equate a VJ's performing a set with cut up samples for a $100 or 2 , to a multi million dollar company boweling over the small guy, just because they can, then your irony need ironed...

[akira_k]

Originally posted by sleepytom
yeah never put your content onto someone else's hardware I agree, never did this and I hope I never will.
Can't something like a Hippo take an external drive? Curious, for I never seen one!

[holly]

I don't want to derail this thread. It just seems the "two sides" to this issue is more about protecting-one's-own than any copyleft agenda or sampling should be free or evil corporate mindset, etc.

And by all means, I believe in protecting your own! Clearly this TV network was out of line. The payment for ANY performance goes way up once the viewership breaks out of the venue and over the airwaves. It was totally crass for them to think they could just take for themselves and not pay extra.... I'm just saying this had more to do with their convenience (editing from a clean source) than anyone trying to "steal content" or some nefarious agenda to rip you off.

It's more or less the same justification with sampling. "How do I remove the logo from the corner...?" Why should I acknowledge the source providers? It's just entertainment, etc.

Anyway, you told them "no", and they had to accept that. Not getting paid for a gig sucks BIG TIME videoteque!

[videoteque]

Not getting paid for a gig sucks BIG TIME videoteque!

Yes, from a council, a legal institution. In the end we must always be paranoid. But even if you get to do a big gig, you get to load your clips (or even better read from an external disk) and at the end you get to erase everything. Hwo do you know that they didn't connect a VTR or a DVD recorder somewhere in the video chain and recorded all your performance??

I already said it once, but if a VJ uses original content, s/he should get rights paid to him when his work is seen by others. Djs who make records get rights from their music, no??

[holly]

Yeah, we were putting EyeWash on at a bar that was fairly tech savy. They'd installed all these BNC routers to do some video dating thing and we were able to plug into their system to show on their tvs etc around the bar.

Turns out there was some freak coked-up manager who decided he could just record all the sets and play them back over the house system at his convenience (ie when there were no VJs in the house). He also had ideas that he would just copy our VJ showcase format and even call it "EyeWash" because he liked the name. I mean, how much more rip-off can you get. He tried to steal other ideas too like our chromakey nights and a/v performances, but in general he went as easy "fix" as he could and the technical details were shoddy, etc. We tried to find the tape he'd made, but he was sneeky enough to hide it from us. The place was such a half-assed organization (bar was losing money hand over fist and sitting empty most of the week) it was probably "lost" within a week anyway.

Long story short we had to boycott the bar for a while. He took the hint and tried to do the VJ thing without using our name but no body showed up to his nights. Duh, no one wants to come into a bar off the street just to see a bunch of VJs perform -- you actually have to promote that shit! It takes EFFORT! The idea that we were just coming in and farting around on video toys and MAGICLY people come in and spend money on drinks.... You know, he really thought it was that easy: invite some people to play for free and he'd pack the house.:rolleyes: Whatta doof.... We held out and wouldn't return to the bar and looked around for other spaces instead. Eventually he self-combusted and left.

Moral of the story: if people aren't paying you or are stealing your gigs on VHS (puh-lease can you steal to a worse format?), they have bigger money problems that don't even involve you. Don't take it personally, just seperate yourself from their organization and they will usually do themselves in.... After that there's always collection agencies.

[videoteque]

I only got the problem of not being paid by the council... :P Instead worked in a lot of different clubs and never have a problem with getting the money. Are club owners more trustworthy than mayors?? In my case, yes!

But I see the recording of someone's live performance as a problem we have to live with. I try to put some time reference on text on works I hand out. So if I write "summer 2005", at least they can rip me off for four months... If they rip me in summer of 2006 they are really cheap!!! :nod:

[holly]

Ha ha, that's a good idea showing the date and time every 10 minutes or so.

Politicians suck. You should really try a collection agency or start calling and bugging them. Hurry before there is a new mayor! Maybe also call the local papers and tell them a sob story about local artists screwed over by greedy beaurocrats!
:P

[Portal]

There are worse formats than VHS for stealing material. How about 8 mm videotape? :)

[Pesh]

poor bastard, sounds like this Bob character is using the media he blagged as his own content library, which, at most can only be the 2 shows in question worth. if he has the legal rights behind him, Vello could just release lo-res versions of the stolen content to all the free VJ loop download sites, that would soon render what Bob has worthless.

[LEVLHED]

hah! thats kinda funny. if he could actually do that.

[jeffhtg]

thats lame.

I would like to know who bob is - who he works for - who the hip hop artist is - and what company is the gear comming from?

the power of pissed of a group of pissed off artists should not be underestimated. coughriacough.

so anyone here from v-squared?

[RootsDigitalized]

Originally posted by holly
Turns out there was some freak coked-up manager who decided he could just record all the sets and play them back over the house system at his convenience (ie when there were no VJs in the house). He also had ideas that he would just copy our VJ showcase format and even call it "EyeWash" because he liked the name. I mean, how much more rip-off can you get. He tried to steal other ideas too like our chromakey nights and a/v performances, but in general he went as easy "fix" as he could and the technical details were shoddy, etc.

I think VJing not just about the content.
First we must generate the creative concepts, what is the concept of the event or venue, survey the venue (location and the atmosphere), target audience, check the technical matters, think about the best setup for that venue, planning the schematic for equipment. Than produced the content special for that venue and event (regular or special event).

People who wanted to short cut by just record or copy cat all the sets and play them back, always forget all that point above and don?t care about the vibes and atmosphere when music and visual around their clubs or bar start, different place, different setup. Different place, different kind of music and sound, different content we'll produce.