LCD or DLP projector forVJ?

[Charston]

HI!

I want to buy a projector but I don't no which: LCD or DLP?
If can somebody help me, write pleae!
I look this LCD:canon lv-s3

[Charston]

and DLP: LG jt 51 or BENQ PB6200

[matthecat]

basically i think lcd are brighter than dlp for the same lumens

but check this for more info:
http://www.projectorcentral.com/lcd_dlp_update.htm

[xangadix]

The problem with DLP is that it is using three mirrors for colors. This means that every color is projected after another. The 'speeds' you see on an DLP projector are the speeds with which the little mirror, selecting the colors, spins.

Now because of this a 'slow' dlp projector will give a rainbow of colors back when you move alongside it. Some people don't see it, some people get terribly annoyed by it. (just like people working on a 60hz monitor)

If you are just watching a movie on it, dlp is fine, but in a club enviroment people are moving and dancing so they will see the color-wash and rainbow effect.

So I would go with LCD for clubs anytime,

[DrEskaton]

I dunno, the conventional wisdom seems to be that LCD projectors are better for VJ's but I'm not so sure.

I took a look at DLP and LCD projectors side by side in a few shops, the DLP perceptually LOOKS much brighter and sharper because of the higher contrast ratio.

eg I looked at a 1200 Lumen DLP projector compared to a 1500 Lumen LCD projector.

The DLP looked brighter, much brighter.

I would guess this is because the DLP had much deeper blacks and so your brain seeing the greater contrast makes the DLP's white "whiter" in your brain.

Does that make sense?

Most VJ's content tends to be graphic and high contrast so a DLP would show it off better and I would think dancers would like the "rainbow shimmer" effect at most clubs I've been too.....

[solly]

If I was you I would get a DLP projector because of low maintenance (no need for continuous cleaning) and less heating problems.
Sol

[devonmiles]

I would guess this is because the DLP had much deeper blacks and so your brain seeing the greater contrast makes the DLP's white "whiter" in your brain.


I think its more the contrast ratio thats important with this. a dlp with 800:1 contrast ratio ( possible range beetween darkest and lightest point) cannot compete with a lcd of 2000:1.
I have two lcds, one is 1000 ansi lumens at 200:1 contrast ratio, the other is 1800 ansilumens at 800:1 contrast ratio and a dlp with 2300 ansilumens at 2000:1 contrast ratio.

of course the first one looks not so terrible good, the second one is okay for vjing in smaller clubs with lower throwing distance and the dlp looks great and shows no rainbow effect and is quite bright over medium distance.
the main difference is that with lcd often the mask grid is visible when you watch the image from the near while with dlp broader areas of a single color look somehow flurry/stirring from the near.
I would recommend to go for a high quality dlp with constrast ratio of at least 2000:1 and a minimum of 1800 anislumens when you can afford it.

[holly]

LCD for da disco

DLP for da home cinema.

Some people have complained about dlp having an issue when you shake your head (move your eyes) you get RGB colors breaking up due to a rotating colorwheel. I have seen this effect on a projector but my dlp projector doesn't have this problem (shake my head like I'm at a beatles concert = no rainbow) so it is not an issue with all DLPs.

Remember the brightness will be much lower halfway through the projector's bulblife so spend extra on the brightest one!

[videoteque]

The ansi lumens declared by manufacturers are more or less like PMPO watts in portable audio. They mean very little. If you read projector central, once calibrated, most projectors offer half (or less) the declared lumens.

In my experience I have seen higher qualitys DLPs, so DLPs looked always better... Never found the rainbow effect a problem and nobody complained.

I think most modern (+1000Ansi lumens) projectors now are up to the task for medium screens (up to 2.5x2m, 8'x6'). But if one can avoid the cheapest, and go to the next level, there are a lot of projectors with 1500-2000lumens for less than 1500?. I guess that if you pay one lumen less than 1? you can be happy! :nod: :nod:

[DrEskaton]

Originally posted by holly
LCD for da disco

DLP for da home cinema.


ok holly you say this? but why? really?

a 1200 Lumen DLP looks brighter than a 1500 Lumen LCD and has better contrast?

I can't see the drawback yet of a DLP in a club situation? what am I missing?

[seex]

I heard about this DLP colour rainbow effect, been staring at DLP-s ever since but never actualy saw it. Even tryed to look with the corner of my eye and the 3D type of stare you need to do when looking at those patterns that have a hiden image im still looking...

[Esotic]

I have a DLP projector (Benq 650, 1600 lumens 600:1 contrast) and occasionally notice a rainbow effect either when I'm blinking or moving my head while continuing to watch the image or pan over the image. It's very slight, though, and it's always been more of a "oh, what a strange side effect of technology" than "damn piece of crap doesn't work right".

Nobody has ever complained to me about it in any situation (whether it be club visuals or projecting movies), but I have gotten plenty of commendations for having such a piece of kit.

-Esotic

[videoteque]

If I was you I would get a DLP projector because of low maintenance (no need for continuous cleaning) and less heating problems.


I never heard this before. Can someone confirm???

[holly]

Well... my first projector was a inFocus DLP 1200ANSI and it has a nice soft picture where the pixels are sort of phased over each other a tiny bit (feature of DLP mirrors that hides the grid of pixels) and the picture is lovely and natural on hollywood movies and etc. Sometimes it looks like the wall is those colors, very natural like a slide projector with kodachrome slides or a movie house. 1200 is dark and easily washed out by ambient light, but I did carry it to clubs and used it at eyewash and it worked ok projected at about 10 or 11 ft across, but really that is stretching it too far and it was too dark.

Then I bought a mitsubishi 3000ANSI LCD for VJing, and WOW! over and above all other differences BRIGHTNESS is the most important factor! That said, the LCD has these super bright blues that are cartoonishly bright and reds are like POW! It is very sharp and intense, and for EyeWash I bring it in on gigs and it is such a high-impact picture even when next to CRTs and the other existing projectors in the house it holds up as THE central focus. LCD picture is not soft at all or realistic-- It is like FischerPrice on acid with artificial food coloring! Which is great for VJs who show graphics and high contrast stuff designed for clubs, but I watched a movie on it when I first got it and it was kinda silly, like turning all the color knobs up to full on the television.... But this is good for VJing where there is lots of ambient light the blues won't get washed out.

The most important thing is to get as bright as you can afford. At list 2000ANSI. For shows I've been renting a friend's 2000 LCD for the second room and it is plenty bright enough for a 10ft picture.... If I had to buy again I would of course go and compare the images first but my opinion is I would prefer to watch Bladerunner on DLP and most VJ sets on LCD.

[DrEskaton]

ok holly fair enough but you're comparing a 3000 lumens LCD to 1200 DLP.

I reckon that at matching comparable lumens levels a DLP will perceptually look 50 percent brighter than an LCD.

so if a 1500 Lumens DLP and a 1500 Lumens LCD both cost $1500US I would take the DLP.

back to original posters questions

here are the projectors you listed on projector central:

http://www.projectorcentral.com/BenQ-PB6200.htm

http://www.projectorcentral.com/Canon-LV-S3.htm

The BenQ is $500 more but is 1700 Lumens vs 1260 for the canon. Also the BenQ has 2000:1 contrast ratio vs 300:1 for the Canon.

I would definately take the DLP in this case.

[holly]

Are the prices equivalent? A DLP is the same cost as LCD?

Another boost to DLP is that the mirror assembly is sealed in a chamber. I had a bulb explode inside my DLP and just vacuumed it out and there was zero damage to the projector or the mirrors. Also, it seems that DLPs are more and more having bulbs that don't need to cool down after being on for hours. This is really helpful at the end of the night to be able to unplug and go and not worry about damage. Is that all projectors or just DLP?

[solly]

LCD projectors get a beating in clubs because it breathes smoke from cigarettes and smoke machine which makes the projection loose quality, brightness etc very quick. Plus if you dont turn them off properly, meaning waiting for the bulb to cool down it could explode or create some white stuff in the bulb . That stuff prevents lights from coming out and the bulb looses brightness. DLP projectors dont need vent cooling. It doesnt inhale the smoke and is not afected by the environment.
Solo

[sleepytom]

what a load of crap...

dlp still gets hot (doh its the bulb that makes the heat not the LCD)
dlp still need venting
dlp is harder to clean (mmm anyone fancy having a go at a matrix of tiny microscopic mirrors with a q-tip!)
dlp has the rainbow effect when you dance
dlp will suffer the same bulb issues as lcd (they use identical bulb types)

there simply is no way of saying which technology is better for VJs - all the big projector manufacturers make both dlp and lcd projectors (would they bother if one of the technologys was crap)

if you are buying a projector i sugest you go somewhere that sells a few diferent ones in your price range and do a direct side by side comparison.


don't bother reading home cinema reviews they have a totaly diferent set of criteria to a VJ (otherwise we'd all be using / raving about CRT!)

[holly]

:rolleyes: You don't need to "clean little mirrors with a q-tip". The mirrors are sealed inside a vacuum "bulb". The worst you'd have to do is dust off the "bulb" (I don't know what else to call it it is a glass/metal chamber thingie). Honestly Tom, the doomsday scenarios you come up with...;) I agree with your conclusion: test them side by side.

And I lied before, The projector I rent that is 2000ANSI is actually DLP and looks great. It also has the ability to be turned off without a cool-down cycle. I asked my friend what model it is:
NEC LT 240K
projectorcrntral (http://www.projectorcentral.com/NEC-LT240K.htm) has the specs.

A dealer once told me that DLP was originally introduced because they were trying to make projectors "smaller and brighter" for mobile office presentations, with less heat and fan noise. It had nothing to do with getting a better image -- that's just a side effect.

[solly]

Sleepytom
How do you come up with so much crap?
You dont need to clean a DLP projector like you do an LCD projector. There is no rainbow effect when you dance either. Heat is not an issue either on DLP like on LCD projectors and it doesnt get dirty like an LCD projector.

[holly]

Solly, some DLP projectors *do* have the rainbow effect. Not all, but some. I've seen it. I wish I knew which brands do that. Esotic says his does it. The NEC I mentioned above doesn't do it. It's mildly annoying and distracting.

[sleepytom]

heat is an issue

it's just a diferent issue with dlp

the kind of stuff you read on the web that says there is no overheating issue with dlp is talking about long term use - they mean that you don't get panel discolouration with dlp.

when vjs talk about overheating they mean projector shutdown in hot venues - dlp is just as susceptable to this as dlp projectors also have heat sensors inside if they reach a certain temperature thenthey will shutdown.
one of the main reasons that dlp was invented was to reduce the noise and size of projcetors - they way they did this was by reducing the amount of airflow by using smaller fans - this added with the reduced size could mean that dlp projectors are actually more likely to shutdown in hot environments.

the real issues for VJs are contrast ratio (dlp is slightly better) and colour saturation (lcd is a long way ahead here still - dlp is improving but lcd is king when it comes to colour)

[visualove]

I just wanted to comment that one aspect of home theater reviews of projectors for VJ's is important - how the projector looks with video, particularly video with a lot of motion.

The video electronics vary a lot between projectors. It's easy to display Powerpoint slides (which are usually boring to tears). Video is different.

Often the video comes in as interlaced - every other line of the picture at a time (2 fields) and those have to be put back together because the light engine is inherently progressive - all the lines of the picture at once. That's deinterlacing.

Next say if the video comes in as analog video from your V4 - about 480 active lines - to your XGA projector - 768 active lines - the image has to be digitally taken apart and then recomputed to map 480 vertical pixels to 768 pixels vertical. This is called scaling. This is never needed for Powerpoint, which is where the vast market for projectors is.

So the home theater subjective viewer tests of deinterlacing and scaling say the projector looks bad, it will look bad for VJing.

Ideally look at the projectors you are considering side by side with some fast motion content at the same room light level you plan to use it. I would suggest something like broadcast sports which spend a lot of money on production quality and have plenty of motion. Movies made on film from DVD's are not a good test because of the original low frame rate of 24 frames per second which blurs motion or stops it depending on shutter speed.

Also Holly's Kodachrome hued projector would be caught by a home theater review. Great for Powerpoint, but video color controls like hue and sauturation are not likely enough to bring it back to a video color gamut.

[Esotic]

The rainbow effect of my DLP may also have something to do with the fact that I wear glasses alot of the time and they have a tendency to accentuate color refractions.

And that might also explain why those of us that don't wear glasses never see the "rainbow effect" (which kinda sounds like the main thrust of a homosexual world domination regime).

-Esotic

[charlielangridge]

My 2 cents:

Personally I see that rainbow effect really easily on DLP's and it doesnt half do my head in!! (I havent found a DLP that I can't see it on) - so i figure if it pisses me off, then it probs gonna piss of the clubbers that can see it, so i always spec LCD for installs or hire-in.

[xangadix]

Let me clarify the DLP rainbow effect a bit then; it has to do with the speed that the color are actually projected; and DLP, like cd rom players, come in differents speeds. So a 6x speed DLP projector would have less of a rainbow effect then a 2x speed, but you will pay extra.

I personally see the rainbow effect on every DLP beamer and it gives me a headache. Now that punters don't come down to you complaining, doesn't neccesarily mean that they don't get headaches. It's not suitable for the club enviroment where everybody is moving. (even when you nod your head you will see the shift).
Now of course you can put this of as a simple 'set on acid' effect,, but let's get real; it prolly isn't the way you want to present your stuff.

Another analogy. If I work behind a 60Hz monitor for more then half an hour I also get a headache. Actually I can only work if the monitor is 80Hz or more. My mother on the other hand can work for days behind her ancient 15 inch screen on 60Hz.
Some see the rainbow effect, some don't.

Really; DLP is great, it's brilliant, clear and has a greater contrast. Sadley enough the technology is not suitable for the club. So go with LCD

Ow and if you got money to spend. Well get a ledscreen :jump:

[Charston]

Ok I think Iwill buy an LCD proji Canon Lv 5210 or Lv7210.
K?ssz Emberk?k!! (<=in hungary: thanks people)